new post about damage to playa. BM own people agree with us

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:43 am

I see more comments of no substance from the folks who turn Left at 10 mile onto 447 and never go beyond the trash fence. If anyone gets the chance turn Right, go to 12 mile and head North...then head Northeast across the open playa. You will be re-educated quickly. And hold your breath when you get caught in that massive freakin dust plume that goes about 20 miles out. LNT? Yeah, right. I betcha you can see that plume from space. It almost looks like Granite Fox was put up and is already belching out stuff.

2 months ago I'd have been laughing and poking fun at all this. Now I know better. As I've said before I know what I saw and I know what my ass felt as I drove across there. And if anyone else heads out that way they'll experience it too. People can bullshit all they want but the truth is there awaiting your discovery with a short little drive across the playa. Go slow if you do make it out there so you don't break your suspension. And be extremely cautious on the playa edges...some spots are wet and you'll be buried in the muck fast.

Cosworth Magellan · Post by **Cosworth Magellan** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:40 am

Reprinted without permission from the same 3playa thread:

brickshob - Sep 14 2005, 3:35PM profile - link - bookmark - plonk
Drink the fucking kool-aid
I've seen serpents as far back as 1986 when I was flying across the desert on ATV's and dirt bikes. The serpents were sources of hours of fun when not found while moving close to 100mph.

I've also seen the odd pits. Generally they seem to be found in groups, so I suspect Badger's piss theory is on.

Also, the trash level has decreased a lot since my first times out there. At least in the vacinities that I have frequented.

You can go read the whole damn thread yourself if you want. The relevant part starts here:
http://3playa.cultureshark.net/?view_th ... 104#bottom

You may need an account if you've not got one already. Suffice to say that the causes (and the effects, as well) are not so clear cut as our "friend" would have us believe. But, hey, it's easy to quote out of context from other message boards, right?

Edit: I'm going to shoot my browser cookies.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:53 am

Kinetic IV wrote:I see more comments of no substance from the folks who turn Left at 10 mile onto 447 and never go beyond the trash fence. If anyone gets the chance turn Right, go to 12 mile and head North...then head Northeast across the open playa. You will be re-educated quickly.

2 months ago I'd have been laughing and poking fun at all this. Now I know better. As I've said before I know what I saw and I know what my ass felt as I drove across there.

Could you elaborate, please? I'm not sure I'm following you correctly.

I was disappointed and embarrassed by the sheer amount of trash on the side of the highway coming out of BRC that was obviously dumped or lost (and abandoned) by Burners.

For that reason I'd like to see a stronger police presence on that part of the road. Making it a shooting gallery and fine the fuck out of anybody who loses their trash. The LEOs could use the money and BRC could use the support.

-c

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:11 am

Zaphod, after the event this year I wanted to avoid the 447 zoo through Gerlach so I went North to 12 mile above the BLM closure zone, made the big sweeping turn onto the playa and headed North. After a couple of miles I hung a nice turn East towards Trego and bam, bam, bam, bam, it was jar your teeth out time on playa serpents. It was bad enough to crack the glass on the windshield even more than it was. And the dust plume from the event is immense. I sat on the watershed ridge past Sulphur a good 40 miles away and looked. There is absolutely no question where the dust plume originates and that it covered 20+ miles in distance down range.

So to say there's no impact from the event? Bullshit. The plume counts. As for the playa serpents they are out there and I feel it's time to get a scientific explanation as to their origin. Nobody knows for sure right now....that can be changed. There are other little things but after seeing the plume and hitting those playa serpents I can't totally dismiss the group's claims. And off it goes from there.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:00 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:There are other little things but after seeing the plume and hitting those playa serpents I can't totally dismiss the group's claims. And off it goes from there.

Not having seen a "playa serpent" I'm curious as to the scale (length, height) of such a thing.

Personally, I don't think the playa or the bugs that may or may not live on it care much, but it's interesting to know what changes BRC has made to it.

Having spent my time in environmentalist's boots, I've gotten a little wary of a lot of these sorts of complaints. A CLASSIC example is the Mt. St. Helens visitor's center, which has a massive display of how the mountain buried the entire ecosystem in hundreds of feet of mud and ash after a searing supersonic shockwave scorched every living organism to carbon...and how it's cyclical, and how the ecosystem always returns...

THEN, in another display, there's a sign that says not to pick up ash or pumice from off the trails because "if Mt. St. Helens wanted people to have ash, she would have given it to them."

So I went outside and immediately began collecting rocks. Apparently she gave me permission, 'cause she gifted Portland with it quite a bit of it a couple of times back in 1980. And if an x-thousand-times-the-power-of-the-A-Bomb-explosion which left a crater large enough to contain the entire human race in it didn't kill the ecosystem, then how are people picking up pebbles and ash going to hurt it?

Environmentalists are often an amusing lot. Not sure if you met Shroom, but she cleans up trails in the Columbia Gorge and one time when she picked a huckleberry somebody angrily snapped: "You're eating bear food!"

-c

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:31 pm

Any one know what the playa looked lke before our military got done bombing the hell out of it? All the time running heavy equipement on it to service the tagets. Not even to mentoin the hundreds of thousands of man and equipment hours to clean it up.

~
None of BM people have found the remains of people before us.
~
Just this week saw a movie filmed on the BR playa. Last night a commercial filmed there.

Cosworth Magellan · Post by **Cosworth Magellan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:12 am

Any one know what the playa looked lke before our military got done bombing the hell out of it?

Like this:

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:10 am

Can't you guys generate your own content?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:37 am

Whining again Blyslv? Quick, call in the rest of the 3Playans to launch the attack and discredit strategy. Badger's in Mississippi, he's not here to defend himself so come on in and lash out against this, obscure the message, defend your friend even though he's wrong, yeah, that's the ticket.

It's too late. Those posts clearly show how 2 faced a couple of people are, they attack the Stop BM people while at the same time they discuss and agree with the very things that they are denying here. And no amount of smoke is going to cover this one. Oh and what was that comment....people own their own words? Oh let me guess, those posts were written by socks?

That giant sucking sound is a few people's crediblity going out the window.
So when do we get to see the first feeble defensive effort again?

Let me grab something to drink, sit back and watch the show....and I'm not talking about CNN's coverage of Rita either.

Edit: Here's a really good post about this thread that makes me glad they stay over there for the most part.

precipitate - Sep 21 2005, 9:40AM (†) (x)
insoluble
blyslv, quit feeding the troll. It only gives him fodder for masturbation.

Edit 2: Cites, so I don't get accused of making it up which is a standard 3Playa tactic:
http://3playa.cultureshark.net/?view_th ... start=32f6

Cosworth Magellan · Post by **Cosworth Magellan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:58 am

That giant sucking sound is a few people's crediblity going out the window.

The only giant sucking sound I hear is...

Ah, forget it.

MissNev · Post by **MissNev** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:58 am

Some people really need a soap box....any soap box will do....every soap box will do.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:41 pm

It`s a slow sluggish slushy slimey slippery slope sliding up on that soapbox.
Especially for a Sock.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:43 pm

Was your slippery sock comment directed at me? Just curious...

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:52 pm

Kinetic.
I`m guessing your tootsies might have slipped into several assorted styles of socks. Am I wrong?

Nice to see you at the M&G by the way.

It was good to have a face to go with the name.
Or 1 of them.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:40 pm

EvilDustBooger wrote:Kinetic.
I`m guessing your tootsies might have slipped into several assorted styles of socks. Am I wrong?

Nice to see you at the M&G by the way.

It was good to have a face to go with the name.
Or 1 of them.

That got me snickering a bit, thanks. There are no mysteries here, I'm wearing tube socks this week with colored stripes, so yeah my tootsies have slipped into several assorted colors of socks. Red, blue, green, black. And new socks feel pretty good!

Seriously I've got one sock I created last month for Miss Katie, a playa character I had fun with this year and who will be back in 2006. That account is "1st Star to the Right".

And not every soapbox will do...I read almost everything posted and have for years. But there's only certain places I'll post, especially if it's negative. So that comment is inaccurate. Understandable but definitely inaccurate.

Anyway we now return to our regularly scheduled thread programming already in progress...

Paradox Plaid · Post by **Paradox Plaid** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:53 pm

we're all environmental terrorists secretly disguised as a group who cares. we're hell bent on world destruction through radical paradoxical measures designed to confuse and distract the authorities into thinking we're just drug fiends. unavowedly we're meeting underneath the man in a secret cave inventing a conspiracy that will shock the earth: organized chaos to create destruction through conservation. first the playa, next the salars, followed by sabkhas, vloers, faydah, takirs, until finally the kavirs. when we're finished there won't be anything except endorheic lakes that exist permanently, most changing size and shape dramatically over time, often becoming dramatically smaller (or breaking into several smaller parts) during the dry season. hmm...

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:20 pm

Kinetic IV wrote: there's only certain places I'll post, especially if it's negative.

Yeah I`m kinda kicking myself for being drawn into these non-issue threads....or at least they aren`t issues to me.
But, I can`t help but weigh in on how ironic and useless these little pissing contests are...
...and before you know it lines are being drawn in the proverbial sand....
...and "I" suddenly become "they".
It would be nice to just walk away somehow,.. but the thread keeps popping up under "my posts" and you just can`t help but peek in to see what twittery is going on....can you? And of course the never-ending threats and reminders of the possibility that today there might actually be a scrap of cohesive evidence to prove claims on either side of this very unnecessary argument.....So I guess you (they) are stuck with me and my little intrusions until I sign in as a different user, or figure out how to set my personal defaults to ignore these threads....

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:25 pm

You touched on something on my eplaya wishlist: The ability to plonk individual threads. It would keep me out of so much trouble.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:27 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:You touched on something on my eplaya wishlist: The ability to plonk individual threads. It would keep me out of so much trouble.

Amen Brother.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:35 pm

threads like this make me imagine dragging the thread creator behind a car over said playa serpents and MOOP.

but, hey, that's just me.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:56 pm

They should be given a choice :

Death or Unga-Bunga.

then give `em:
Death by Unga-Bunga.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:35 pm

Oh my god... They're covering the hillsides in dust.

DUST I TELL YOU.. DUST!!!

Oh the humanity. Oh the horror...

allanon2 · Post by **allanon2** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:57 pm

TheJudge wrote:Oh my god... They're covering the hillsides in dust.

DUST I TELL YOU.. DUST!!!

Oh the humanity. Oh the horror...

they are both particles.
they both dont belogn in the air.

the power plant will do its best to keep there dust in but does BMORG? if we did the numbers i bet the power plant will put less matrial in the air over its entire life than one BM event does in one year.

some will say that the coal particles from the power plant are worse than the lake bed particles. all I knwo is that I dont want to inhale either.

we have to have power plants somewhere. and i think the judge agrees that a desert is a good place for it. he does not seem to care about the hillsides and lake bed much. I say we develop a clean way to crack the coal into CO and H2 and then burn or transport those. and then bury the waste back where it came from.

if the nativie americans wanted the power plant on their property very few people could or would have a issue as it was there decision. yes the particles travel outside their property but you cant do much.

the particles from the BM event travel outside your event and I do what I can and that is fight that you kepe them in. which can and will not work.

the playa is getting worse (from the words of your own BM people as the thread gives proof about) and I will do my danrdest (sp) to try to mitiagate the damage.

ttyl
rex

RegRad · Post by **RegRad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:01 am

Allanon2
"the power plant will do its best to keep there dust in but does BMORG? if we did the numbers i bet the power plant will put less matrial in the air over its entire life than one BM event does in one year."

Seriously this is a crock... your have now let your ass do the talking for you.....wait you have always done that!

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:20 am

For anyone coming in on Jungo Road, the BRC dust plume is noticeable 50 miles away. This isn't bullshit, it's verifiable fact that ANYONE with reasonable vision can see first hand when you drive in. Or leave BRC and head North to 12 Mile and then head Northeast. You can't deny the plume.

Now any plume coming from a powerplant will most likely be studied...I know the powerplants around the KC Metroplex have had their plumes studied and mapped out for various wind conditions. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Granite Fox project would receive the same scrutiny or more...after all Utah has made comments about the plume so they are aware of the potential problem. Anyway there's some fire behind the smoke here, don't dismiss the ideas presented based on past behaviors of the poster. I used to be one of those launching the attacks. That changed when I saw it for myself...studies can be altered to back the objectives of the people funding it. My own eyes don't usually tell me lies so I believe what I see. And that plume is real.

RegRad · Post by **RegRad** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:50 pm

Yes the plume is "Real" , it has most likely been happening for thousands and thousands of years as the sands turn, the high winds blow, and more recently the people race and camp on it. Is it going to affect the world? Is it going to give us all lung cancer? Should we drop our shit and run a far away as we can?
Christ. The playa will be there after you all rot away and the power plant turns to dust itself.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:20 pm

Environmental awareness begins with you and things that are local to you. Regarding the dust plume the BLM is already aware of the dust problems and as part of the stips requires mitigation measures. If the plume expands more mitigation measures may be required. So this may not impact the world or give us lung cancer but it could certainly impact the event we love. And for that reason it's worth paying attention to. If you want to ignore it go ahead. With the permit coming up for renewal some people won't ignore it and since burners generate it, why not have burners work together to address it? Or do you want outsiders or even people from Washington dictating future permit stips? It could come down to that but history shows burners have identified similar problems and worked together to find answers. The dust plume can be handled the same way....or so I hope.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:27 pm

Rex, you're not serious, are you?

Coal combustion creates stuff like carbon dioxide, sulphur oxide and nitrogen oxide.

Playa dust kicked up by vehicles, people and the wind does not contain carcinogens, toxins, or radioactivity. At worst, it makes your car dirty. That's about it.

I'll take a dust devil over a black-soot-belching smokestack any day of the week.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:48 pm

Granted powerplant pollution is 100X nastier than playa dust but airborne particulates are still a problem. The EPA is working on increasing awareness of the problem. Now I'm at work so I don't have my cite list at hand...but a quick Google search comes up with a few things of interest:

http://www2.envmed.rochester.edu/envmed ... exPMC.html
http://www.earthjustice.org/news/display.html?ID=248

Counterpoint:
http://www.cato.org/dailys/1-21-97.html
http://www.junkscience.com/foxnews/fn080400.htm

Now these are absolutely weak, no make that pathetic sites. But dust is dust and frankly if I lived downwind from the playa I'd be bitching about this. Now Badger may come in with his background on soil and the playa in particular and rip this apart. If he does, so be it, I'll accept that. But that fine particulate dust goes far beyond the event site and it's worthy of paying attention to...who knows someone monitoring air quality along the Wasatch Front may say that playa dust is showing up in their meters...and then you've got a mess. </soapbox>

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:03 pm

Are you guys fucking nuts? Have you ever seen the playa on an average weekend? There are people damned near FLYING across that playa with dust plumes as big as a BRC dust storm behind them for miles. And those people drive at 70+ MPH on the playa all summer long. One week of people at burning man driving at 5mph is nothing.

new post about damage to playa. BM own people agree with us

Socks

here's a post you can quote

the judge how is dust differnt than coal particles?