Ice sales benefiting anti-gay organizations.

[robotland]

I, for one, am quite satisfied with the LLC's position and actions regarding the BSA. I intend to purchase ice at the event this year, and to try to spend some money in Gerlach and Empire where possible. (Definitely buying a shirt, if the nice watertower lady's still there.) And I'll try to think of my gay stepbrother AND my Eaglescout father while I'm in the ice line.

[Sean_til_Dawn]

[quote="MoisturePup"]First I want to say that I am not against ice sales, as I believe it is a neccessity for food safety on the playa. That said...

The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against gays, whether they be gay children, or gay scout leaders. In any case their anti-gay policies are used to single out and exclude individuals based solely on their sexual orientaiton. They also discriminate against athiests and agnostics, whether they be children or scout leaders. The boyscouts won this right to discrimnate in a Supreme Court ruling issued June 28, 2000 and has since then expelled many of it's members based on the religion or sexual orientation of the scout, or troop leader. Many of the troop leaders that were expelled were themselves Eagle Scouts (the highest level possible for a Scout to achieve) and had transitioned into the role of Scout leaderes as adults. They exemplified the organizations values, with the exception of the fact that they were gay or did not believe the "correct" religious values. (CNN: [url]http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/ ... boyscouts/[/url] )

Unfortunately, in the 2004 afterburn report it seems that Arctic Camp (the official BM LLC ice shop) money was donated to the Lovelock Boy Scouts Association, which as an entity is required to follow the guildelines of the larger Boy Scouts of America for membership.

Because of this new information I must, unfortunately, boycot purchasing ice on the playa. I hope that the BMorg clarifies their nondiscrimination policy to exclude such organizations (and lets us know) so that those of us who care can be certain that our money doesn't go to organizations which seek to hurt those we love.

http://afterburn.burningman.com/04/bizs ... a_ice.html <-- link to afterburn report that contains the list of orgs.

List of orgs that recieve ice money:
We should, of course, mention that ice sales operations once again allowed us to make a series of substantial donations to local Gerlach, Empire and Bay Area organizations. This year's list includes: Crisis Call Center Empire 4-H Club, Friends of the Black Rock, Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID), Gerlach High School (read their letter of thanks), Gerlach Medical Clinic, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Leave No Trace, Nevada Museum of Art, Nevada Outdoor School, Friends of the Library, Kid's, Horses & Rodeos, Lovelock/Pershing Chamber of Commerce, Marzen House Museum, Pershing County Humane Society, Pershing County School System, Pershing County Senior Center, ****Lovelock Boy Scouts Association****, People to People Programs, 23five, Black Rock Arts Foundation, Epic Arts, and The Crucible.[/quote]

Enjoy you warm drinks and spoiled food.

Unless you got the stones to use dry ice.....

:roll:

[theCryptofishist]

day late, $short

[Stilesfamily]

My question would be… Does this fierce integrity run throughout your life or only when it is easy and simple to follow your idealistic vision? If your going to deny the BSA pennies due to there social beliefs, what action do you take on all the other social injustices that fill our day. As a public service message I appreciate this post, but given your aggressive stance on this subject I expect your life must be a quagmire of frustrated discipline (I know mine sometimes feels that way). In the world today it is hard to do little more than breathe without oppressing someone somewhere. If you do lead a life dedicated to making zero impact on the world, I commend you; I wish I had the discipline. If you don’t, thanks for the message and please cool down the rhetoric. Sarcasm aside Badgers recommendation seems logical, why don’t you boycott the event, I would not be surprised if, at the DPW BBQ, a few boy scouts, and even homophobes may have been served food. Where does your view of support end?

P.S. Still trying to figure out exactly what a troll is???

[Kinetic IV]

it is hard to do little more than breathe without oppressing someone somewhere

Your presence means I have less clean air to breathe. I'm oppressed.

Seriously, this thread needs a silver stake driven through it as it's certainly past it's time to go. To help facilitate it's departure let me offer some resources on trolls so everyone can be up to speed on how to ID them.

The Subtle Art of Trolling:
http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

The Original Usenet Anti-Troll FAQ. (Dated but still spot-on for ID'ing trolls)
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile ... ll_faq.htm

Wikipedia's entries on trolls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet_troll

And an all time classic, the Anti-Troll song!
http://www.gingicat.org/jacob/troll.html

Beyond offering the resources I have no comment. Read and then make your own assessments of what you see here.

[Cabanasprings]

And next week we will teach you how to make a Pipe Bomb.

[Kinetic IV]

I get your point Cabanasprings. But the post serves a couple of purposes and private agendas so it will stay put. Again your observation is noted.

[Observer]

First I want to say that I am not against ice sales, as I believe it is a neccessity for food safety on the playa. That said...

The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against gays, whether they be gay children, or gay scout leaders. In any case their anti-gay policies are used to single out and exclude individuals based solely on their sexual orientaiton. They also discriminate against athiests and agnostics, whether they be children or scout leaders. The boyscouts won this right to discrimnate in a Supreme Court ruling issued June 28, 2000 and has since then expelled many of it's members based on the religion or sexual orientation of the scout, or troop leader. Many of the troop leaders that were expelled were themselves Eagle Scouts (the highest level possible for a Scout to achieve) and had transitioned into the role of Scout leaderes as adults. They exemplified the organizations values, with the exception of the fact that they were gay or did not believe the "correct" religious values. (CNN: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/ ... boyscouts/ )

Unfortunately, in the 2004 afterburn report it seems that Arctic Camp (the official BM LLC ice shop) money was donated to the Lovelock Boy Scouts Association,

And now you want to get a boycott of Arctic Camp's ice sales going, in a coercive attempt to micromanage that camp's decisions as to which charities to donate to? Let me drop a radical suggestion on you, one that has been out of fashion for about a generation.

How about if you mind your own business.

Arctic camp sells a product - ice - at a more than fair price, so when they get one's (freely spent) money and one gets their (freely purchased) ice, that money is now their money, and how they spend it is their business. Yet here you are, trying to interrupt their revenue stream, in order to try to force them to make that decision, one that is properly theirs to make, in a manner that meets your expectations.

How do you justify that? "Boy scout troop leader" is a volunteer position. Nobody's livelihood is going to be harmed by losing that job, and there's nothing keeping gay would-be scouts and gay would-be scoutmasters from coming together (err, didn't mean that, the way that sounded) and setting up their own organization. There is, then, nothing particularly coercive about the BSA position, which the BSA has made no particularly aggressive effort to export. If you're gay, you're just not invited to that particular party. There are others.

On finding that the BSA can't be attacked legally in the way you want, you're going to try to undermine their freedom of association by going after anybody who associates with them? How very 90s of you, in the most chickenshit of ways. I agree with Joel. *PLONK!*

[Observer]

List of orgs that recieve ice money:
We should, of course, mention that ice sales operations once again allowed us to make a series of substantial donations to local Gerlach, Empire and Bay Area organizations. This year's list includes: Crisis Call Center Empire 4-H Club, Friends of the Black Rock, Gerlach General Improvement District (GGID), Gerlach High School (read their letter of thanks), Gerlach Medical Clinic, Gerlach Volunteer Fire Department, Leave No Trace, Nevada Museum of Art, Nevada Outdoor School, Friends of the Library, Kid's, Horses & Rodeos, Lovelock/Pershing Chamber of Commerce, Marzen House Museum, Pershing County Humane Society, Pershing County School System, Pershing County Senior Center, ****Lovelock Boy Scouts Association****, People to People Programs, 23five, Black Rock Arts Foundation, Epic Arts, and The Crucible.

And don't forget the individuals and organizations that associate with these scofflaws and scalawags, because as moisturepup has taught us, to be associated with a homophobe is to be a homophobe. It's kind of like the ideological version of AIDS.

In that spirit, then, action must be taken against the groups and individuals who associate with those groups and individuals, and then against the groups and individuals who associate with those groups and individuals ... and so on, and so on. Somewhere around six degrees of seperation out, however, I suspect that we'll make the embarassing discovery that the list now includes everybody, ourselves included. But far be it from me to keep that reality from getting in the way of my showing this idea all of the respect that it merits. In the spirit of true brotherhood and appreciation, I'd like to share an image with Moisturepup, of a man who did much to raise public consciousness about the possibilities of MoisturePup's style of political activism.







That would be Sen.Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, and hey, Moisturepup (and so many others like him) congratulations on bringing back the concept of a "blacklisting", complete with the price of ignoring the blacklist being that one is put on the blacklist onself - and in getting so many people to think of the practice as being a source of liberation.

[theCryptofishist]

Um. Checking with the LLC about the policy and saying that you are satisfied with their responce seems a little soft for Joe...

[EvilDustBooger]

Senator Joseph McCarthy
inventor of "Radical Inclusion"

[Observer]

Um. Checking with the LLC about the policy and saying that you are satisfied with their responce seems a little soft for Joe...

I believe if you check, you'll find that robotland wrote that, not MoisturePup. While they are keeping each other company in my ignore file owing to robotland's antics during the Dicky Box thread following a suggestion I offered in response to a concern raised by Bob Stahl, they are not, as far as I know, the same person.

Nor would the mildness of a reply made to one party erase the reality of the borderline fascism of the reply made to another, even should MoisturePup turn out to be robotland's sock. Are you saying that this is the case? Because otherwise I'm unclear on the relevance of the passage that you seem to be alluding to.

[theCryptofishist]

Okay. Part of this discussion was carried out on Tribe (I don't remember if it was Bay Area Burners or the Burning Man Tribe) and MP discussed his letter with the llc there. So I guess I was privy to a certian level of information that wasn't apparent here. The tribe discussion included at least a couple of queers chiming in with their problems with BSA.

Although I may have wished MP hadn't pushed in quite the way he did on line, I basically find his position sane. BSA is a very powerful group that because of its huge cultural prominance has a certain moral authority that it is (in my opinion) violating. I certainly understand the depth of Moisture Pup's anger--it's close to a life and death issue.

[Stilesfamily]

Not that I am flip flopping here but I would like to point out that, under our current leadership, our nation is not getting any more liberal on this front; at least from the perspective of government and power. Perhaps I should re think my position on this. I love when I play my own devils advocate, ahh the little voices in my head.

[Dutchess806]

I have been walking on cloud nine for the last month, eagerly making my costumes, putting the finishing touches on all of the gifts that I have made for all of my adoring awaiting new friends, I have been jonesing so bad for a good ole' dose of home! Where the heart is! Where the real people live! Now what do I find, logging on to e-playa two measly weeks before homecoming!!!!?????? Ridiculous squabble and protesing! For what????? Comending sensorship???? If you can speak out about "gay rights" why can't someone else speak out against "not supporting gay rights"!??? Good lord. . . . .who friggin cares??? We take what we need from whomever will provide to be comfy in the desert and party on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get over it and let the good vibe commence!!!

[geekster]

I think ice sales should benefit orphan minority lesbian single mothers who are HIV+ and have kids in Iraq. Both of them. Either that, or all procedes from ice sales should be converted to nickels and scattered by the space shuttle on reentry all across the country. Or maybe ... oh, fuck it, ice sales should fund my giant wooden robot. Nah, ice sales should benefit the construction of free hot showers at burning man! Or something.

[Ron]

MP, thank you very much for bringing this topic up and sharing the relevant parts of the letter that BMLLC sent you. Like you my first inclination would be not to spend my money at a location that makes contributions to the BSA, given their stance on gay folk. With the information you've shared I'll continue to buy my occasional bag of ice (having a powered freezer rocks) this year but may not in years future. If there's been no change in the Scouts policy (either local or national) this time next year and BMORG is still giving them a portion of ice sales, I probably wouldn't buy any then.

Here in the States we've got a fine and long tradition of vilifying those who present uncomfortable ideas and you're getting more than your share of that on this list. Just remember when they've got to post their misguided impressions of you, rather than talk about your ideas, they're demonstrating the weaknesses in themselves more than really talking about you.

You know, in that sense, it's funny how conservative the e-playa can be...

Ron

[mojo]

MP - I was pleased to see that the org took the opportunity to use their voice in their letter to the Boy Scouts to protest the anti-gay policies of the Scouts. HOWEVER, should the program continue to receive money from ice sales on the playa, I will volunteer to spend a few hours with you, holding signs in protest in front of Camp Arctica.

[Observer]

Although I may have wished MP hadn't pushed in quite the way he did on line, I basically find his position sane.

As I haven't been to the Tribe's forum, I'll concede the possibility that MoisturePup may have written something sane while he was over there. That would be a pleasant change of pace for him, considering the stark staring looniness of the position that he's been arguing here.

My specific beef with him, far more than anything else, is to be found in what he tried to do to Camp Arctica. I think that we ought to remember that those guys put themselves out financially, every year, until that ice is sold. What happens to them, financially, if Pup manages to rouse the Politically Correct rabble, and get people to not buy that ice? The members of Camp Arctica are then left with a large amount of expensive meltwater, because there is no way that they can return the ice. At that point, their reward for having dug in deeply into their own probably not-so-deep pockets in order to provide the community with a needed service, and to raise some money for a variety of charities and causes will be to be deeply, personally screwed.

That's a lousy trick for one burner to try to play on another, and the message it sends is a destructive one. What it says is that if anybody makes an effort on behalf of the people at Black Rock, he'd better watch his back, because if somebody he never even heard of has a perceived personal grievance with somebody, anybody he gave money to or otherwise associated with, that he will become a target for any anger directed against that person or group whose path he crossed, at some point in the past.

Count the number of people or groups you associate with in a day. If you have real money to give, go further and count the number of groups who were beneficiaries of your generosity. Could you possibly keep tabs on all of them? Would it be sensible or even appropriate for you to try?

If this community, as a group, sits back and sends the message that it thinks that this kind of behavior that we saw out of MoisturePup is acceptable, then BMORG might as well just fold up the Center Camp tent and go home, because on those terms, ANYBODY could be the next person targeted, ANY group could be the next group bankrupted, never knowing what hit it, because it ran afoul of some unknown stranger's hyperaggressively pushed personal agenda. On those terms, how many people are going want to bother to make an effort, and just where does Black Rock end up if people end up being afraid to put themselves out, because they're too busy wondering "what's next"?

BSA is a very powerful group that because of its huge cultural prominance has a certain moral authority that it is (in my opinion) violating. I certainly understand the depth of Moisture Pup's anger--it's close to a life and death issue.

I can understand your desire to empathise with somebody who seems upset, and up to a point, that's a commendable desire, but listen to what you just said. MoisturePup wanted to harass a camp for making a charitable donation. Now, you're defending his hostility against the recipient of that charity on the basis they (the BSA) should be denied their freedom of association, because by exercising that freedom in a way which you personally disapprove of, they're communicating their disapproval of a particular group, and others might be influenced by that implied disapproval. The act of exclusion, then, in part becomes a kind of communication, and your objection to that free exercise of their right of free association is that you don't like what it is that the BSA has decided to say to the rest of America, through their actions.

If this is anything akin to the argument that was used against the BSA in court, no wonder they won. The free speech provision of the first amendment was crafted with that specific type of abuse of the system in mind; one does not ask the system to help one's cause prevail in the court of public opinion by silencing one's opposition. That's not a loophole or a technicality that the BSA would have had to fall back on, in response to such an argument, it's the whole point of the damn amendment in the first place. If my books were completely uncrated, I'd be quoting a few choice passages out of the Federalist papers right now.

If you're really concerned with the way America is going to view gay people, then may I suggest thinking on this image - the reaction of an American public that gets used to seeing its democratic institutions subverted by a select few who've decided that since their intentions are so good, that they have the right to (in effect) do the general public's thinking for it, and make sure that the course of discussion is channeled only in the direction they want to see it proceed in, with as much force being brought to bear upon those dissenting from their views, or even upon those daring to associate with those daring to dissent from those views, as is needed to beat them down into silence or submission as needed. Now imagine that public, having watched its most basic personal liberities getting trashed, collectively coming to view the gay population as being among those on whose behalf those freedoms were trashed.

This is not going to make for a loving response. Try "cold, icy rage"; I can imagine few strategies likelier to backfire, short of a push to create a national holiday in honor of NAMBLA. People do not stay browbeaten forever, and the longer one keeps them down, the angrier they're going to be when they bounce back up, and the more severe the backlash. If this attempt to silence or control the BSA fails, those pursuing it have wasted their time, and so far, that is all that their side has accomplished in this. Should they succeed, God help them and their hapless beneficiaries, because nobody on earth will. This isn't about job discrimination, because these aren't jobs. This is about parents having the freedom to decide who they will or won't entrust their children's safety to, and about the freedom of the individual to freely associate with, or not associate with others, as one pleases.

A freedom that one can not use foolishly is no freedom at all, in practice, because who is it that gets to define foolishness, and how does one keep such a broad discretion from being abused? The reality of the situation is that outside of the persecution fantasies of a few gay activists and their apologists, most people couldn't care less who somebody else wants to sleep with. The sad irony of this is that by getting itself identified with the act of oppression, the gay community is in real danger of creating the very hostility that some of its pushier advocates have chosen to perceive, in order to justify their own meritless prominence, more quickly than one can say "self-fulfilling prophecy".

You want a real life and death issue, try pushing on that one.

[Observer]

MP - I was pleased to see that the org took the opportunity to use their voice in their letter to the Boy Scouts to protest the anti-gay policies of the Scouts. HOWEVER, should the program continue to receive money from ice sales on the playa, I will volunteer to spend a few hours with you, holding signs in protest in front of Camp Arctica.

And I'll volunteer to run a soft drink stand for all of the thirsty onlookers. Of course, I'll need LOTS of ice for that ...

[Observer]

Here in the States we've got a fine and long tradition of vilifying those who present uncomfortable ideas and you're getting more than your share of that on this list. Just remember when they've got to post their misguided impressions of you, rather than talk about your ideas, they're demonstrating the weaknesses in themselves more than really talking about you.

As good a summary of your own post as one could ask for, Ronald; you've responded to substantive arguments with a post that consists of nothing more than a statement of your gut reaction and an ad hominem.

Oops, sorry, probably exceeded your attention span. Let me cut this down to your level.

POT. KETTLE. BLACK.

You know, in that sense, it's funny how conservative the e-playa can be...

Ron

Really? To express civil libertarian concerns automatically makes one a conservative? You must make sure to share that one with the ACLU. Some of their members have been laboring under the mistaken belief that they're liberals! It'll be good of you to clear that one up for them.

[EvilDustBooger]

I Admire your logic Observer.
You speak Volumes.
Now
Will you please focus it on the oil and gas traders!
Convince those bastards that the sky is indeed NOT falling!
And get me some cheaper gas for my long trip next week?
`Preciate it

[Observer]

I Admire your logic Observer.
You speak Volumes.
Now
Will you please focus it on the oil and gas traders!
Convince those bastards that the sky is indeed NOT falling!
And get me some cheaper gas for my long trip next week?
`Preciate it

LOL. Wish I could, man. I'm aching to travel, myself.
No money, though.

[dj big E]

I wonder how old the boy scouts were that banned gays in the first place . I am assuming it wasn't the kids themselves. So lets not make the kids suffer for the adults dumb fucking RULES. Buy some ice so the kiddies can have some fun. BIG E

[chrispburn]

short of a push to create a national holiday in honor of NAMBLA.

Wow, I know Nabla the Clown is a publicity whore, but I never thought he'd go for a national holiday.

http://ggreg.com/page.asp?s=6&p=82


OK, a serious question -- dumb, but never considered this before

Camp Arctica is a plain ole' theme camp, just like yours and mine? I assumed (yes, makes me an "ass") that since they have a monetary transaction, it was run by BM LLC. I can do my research, thanks, but thought I would share my question, as others may have also not thought of this.

[Stilesfamily]

GOD DAM Observer, that is perhaps the most articulate post I have ever read. Do you happen to teach political science?

BTW

<plonk>

What exactly does "plonk" mean?

Yes, I have been looking around and I have yet to discover what "plonk" means. I would hate to plonk and be unaware of it.

Little help here

[EvilDustBooger]

-------------------<plonk>--------------------

Means someone just clicked on the "un-happy" face icon by your name
and you will now have to talk to the "E-Hand".

[EvilDustBooger]

It`s also the sound your cranium makes when
grandma beans you with her stroller.
heh heh

[EvilDustBooger]

It`s ALSO a way to say
This is MY United States of WHATEVA !

[Cabanasprings]

How about if you buy the ice and then pour out an amount equal to the BSA donation.


IMHO if you want to waste what precious time we have at Black Rock City protesting, then you are a complete idiot.