Hey LeChat, What Are You Working On?

karine · Post by **karine** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:02 pm

Initially, I was thinking it was there (in a cam), and not in springs.

And the cat I believe meant "crankshaft".
Ah HA HA HA. (((thanks for the correction earlier, Le Chat)))
~without~ yes. Indeed!

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Calling BB Sue))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:19 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:I"m working on a system of two opposing springs at the moment, but am open to other suggestions.

OO, I've got a suggestion! Take your spring idea and install it on a cam follower with two lobes on the cam 180 degrees apart and timed so that the follower is coming down the steepest part of the cam at the points the pump rod is either at top or bottom. Then the spring on the follower will be giving the maximum "push" to keep the shaft turning. Beyond those points you can have the cam gradually ramp back up to the high points of the lobes so there is a smooth feel to the pump.
(will attempt drawing here seperately)

I worked as a bowling alley pinsetter mechanic for seven years on the old Brunswick A2 machines and they are a mechanical computer of cams, belts, timing gears and whatnot...they used something very similar to what you need!

karine · Post by **karine** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:25 pm

Whoa. Processing. Genius! I think... Give me a minute...

karine · Post by **karine** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:31 pm

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:38 pm

Ok... I'm seeing it in my head, but two lobes would mean its in a constant state of balance... wouldnt' it??? (scratching head and rubbing face ala Curly from the Three Stooges). Max compression and max relaxation... I think this would cause it to lope.

Ok... let me think. I'm seeing it as one lobe and two spring/followers 180 degrees apart. One is in max relaxation and one is in max compression just before the crankshaft reaches "top dead center". This means that the follower would be on the downhill side of the lobe just after top dead center of each side of the crank's travel.

Wouldn't it?

Am I thinking correctly here?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:54 pm

Alright... I've got to go sleep on this one.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:55 pm

Ah, what you want is two lobes and one follower. Got a diagram! Great basic La Paint engineeeerin' diagram:

What do you think? As the pump is in the two "sticky spots" at top and bottom the cam follower is just past its high point and pushing down to keep the shaft turning. The followers low spots are where the pump handle can exert force to keep the shaft turning and the shaft rotation then ramps the cam follower back up. Should work nicely.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:57 pm

NO WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Two lobes and two spring would mean it's giving maximum push just past TDC of each side of the crank's travel. This would give extra "oomph" in increasing proportion to the decreasing leverage of the pump at each end of the travel!!

Right?!?

karine · Post by **karine** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:59 pm

I love Tiahaar.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:01 pm

Tiahaar wrote:Ah, what you want is two lobes and one follower. Got a diagram! Great basic La Paint engineeeerin' diagram:

What do you think? As the pump is in the two "sticky spots" at top and bottom the cam follower is just past its high point and pushing down to keep the shaft turning. The followers low spots are where the pump handle can exert force to keep the shaft turning and the shaft rotation then ramps the cam follower back up. Should work nicely.

Oh Jeez... that would work too. I like the idea of the spring being applied to a lever that holds the follower. This could work very well.

Crap... I've got a lot to think about now.

I've got to process this for a bit.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:05 pm

Take your diagram, Tiahaar, and duplicate the lever/spring mechanism at 180 degrees.

Oh..... man....

My brain hurts, but I'm seeing it.

karine · Post by **karine** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 pm

He means having one come off from the right, and one from the lower left. This is a good idea.

Thanks for finding the compromise, Tihaar!
(Now we can ~both~ be right, and also know it was YOUR idea!)

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:20 pm

Sure LeChatNoir you could have two followers for extra "ooomph", one for each lobe, might make the bearings last longer even. This is a fun problem! Heehee, thanks Karine, glad to assist on this fab project.
Wala, two cam followers!

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:24 pm

Heheh, aw really Karine it was you and LeChatNoir's ideas with the sewing machine cams and the springs, they just made a light bulb go off and I went AHA! Of course the drawing is the easy part...now you folks have to go and build the darn thing

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:43 pm

P.S. as a side benefit of this arrangement the "neutral" or resting preference for the pump handle will be horizontal so that when you push down on the handles you will be at a good starting point to turn the crank shaft. Then at the top/bottom of the pump handle's movement where you can't put any energy in (and the freewheel doesn't let the flywheel pull the crankshaft around...in theory...maybe it will stick enough to help) the springs on the cam followers will be putting their maximum energy into keeping the shaft rotating. The shape of the cam is important, I tried to draw the proper shape and timing position but its only an approximation.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:07 am

This machine is really going to fuck someone up in a few hundred years when they try to figure it out.

This reminds me of those gravity powered programmed machines the greeks made.

karine · Post by **karine** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:55 am

I read that as:

This reminds me of those gravity powered programmed machines the geeks made.

Ah ha ha ha ha. I wanted to get up early and get down in the shop with it... 101 days until the man burns & so much to do!

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:56 am

gyre wrote:This machine is really going to fuck someone up in a few hundred years when they try to figure it out.

That's one of the hopes for it...

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:02 am

Tiahaar wrote:Sure LeChatNoir you could have two followers for extra "ooomph", one for each lobe, might make the bearings last longer even. This is a fun problem! Heehee, thanks Karine, glad to assist on this fab project.
Wala, two cam followers!

The only thing I'm seeing so far as a problem is that there will be a "stiff spot" at the peak of the cam lobe. So this should be timed at a place where there is still adequate leverage from the pump arm to overcome it.

Finding the timing AND just the right spring I think will be key. We'll see how it progresses tonight.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:22 am

Alright you guys, Your giving me brain pain.. So a little side story..

I was a pin setter back in the days.. If I was hard up for money I would work a night or two.. The pins were set from a holding machine.. The pin boy would have to keep track off whitch slot the pin went into on a spare.. In order to make any money you would have to set as many as four alleys at a time.. This ment you had to remove the padding between the pin pits.. You had to be damn fast and duck flying pin at the same time.. Not to mention getting the pins back into the right setter and in order.. As the night got later the bowlers got drunker.. Some would see how fast they could take turns.. While other played kill the pin boy.. Like throw the ball as the machine was being pushed down to set the pins.. Just to see if I could get them set and my ass out of the pit in time..
I was 15, the min wage $1.10.. I could make three bucks an hour setting, plus beer.. The bowlers would tip me in beer..

Guess I had it easy.. The setters before my time had to step on a peddle so spikes would come up from the floor.. They would have to hand set the pins on the spikes.. Then get the hell out of the way.. No padding just planks so not to damage the pins..

Breaks over GET BACK TO WORK..

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Tiahaar wrote:

This reminds me of part of a pallet changer on a CNC mill that used to give me trouble. The lobes on the cam got worn down over 10 years of pallet changes and would hang the machine up constantly. I had to make a new one and the machine was fine after that.

I am still a little unclear as to what you need to do but from what I can figure I think this is the way to go. I really want to get a look at this project of yours. Even more than I want to see the steam powered tractor and rolling house. In fact this project is shaping up to be on my personal top ten list. Along with that trike Tiahar has with racing slicks. Ever since I got my first erector set I've been addicted to "contraptions". Thanks again for taking the time to share your design and manufacturing with us.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:32 pm

Thanks again for taking the time to share your design and manufacturing with us.

And thanks to all you guys for helping with the ideas. I'm having a lot more fun and building a better contraption because of this thread. When I started it, I hoped it would both help me figure out why I'm building this and how to explain it, get people involved in it, and inspire others to make goofy stuff, too. It's doing that better than expected, I think.

And thanks for the breather for the brain unjon... I needed that story actually.

So...

Below is a pic of the rough set up of the cam. I drew out the cam shape in a graphic program, printed it at 1:1, then cut out the paper "template" and traced it onto 1/4" stock. Then plasma cut it, ground the edge smooth, and mounted it to a collar to fit the shaft.

Karine and I did a trail run tonight with me maintaining pressure on the one cam arm via a spring and grabhook (shown in the pic) and her cranking. I have to tweak the timing a little bit, but it worked very well. sometime over the weekend I'll forge out some cool looking arms for the followers and get everything assembled in a finished version.

You will note that the crankshaft for the pump (just beyod the knuckle of my middle finger) is just past "Bottom Dead Center" so to speak and so is the follower of the cam. I could actually get it to move past the sticky point with hand pressure alone... no pumping from above.

I think this was a good colaboration... from across the desk and across the miles. Nice...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:16 pm

Looking good, looking good..

I finished all the collage work today.. Now the stiffnera(trying to out think the playa wind).. Then fit it all to the trike.. Did a bunch of contraptioneering on the Giro Gear Loss generator.. Trying to make it look like a lot for a little DC power is hard.. Some color on the parts will help.. I had all the parts in the shop.. That's a good thing.. It gets rid of some junk.. You helped get my ass in gear.. JUst coming out of a depression..

Did some work on the ric-shaw project.. Animating the man is the last thing and the hardest.. I did a man on a bicycle two years ago.. This time he will be on a unicycle with a quite small wheel.. Hoping to make it appear running with small steps.. It's kind of steriotyping but should be ok at BM.. And look great at night..

karine · Post by **karine** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:39 pm

Trying to make it look like a lot for a little DC power is hard..

I love that "hard" is so damn fun when there are good folk to share it with!

...And that "look like a lot for a little DC power" makes sense to all of us...

Why of course you would want to do that! Well, the fun was in the battle, was it not? The sleepless nights, the waking up in the middle of the night with an idea, the daydreaming when you should be on to something else...
All of our projects are so damn fun. AND just wait for the playa!

Shit might've fallen apart, but when we've got it there, we've GOT IT there!

Thanks for sharing, Ya'all... I really enjoy your posts.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:52 pm

Unjon,

What are you using to generate DC again? I'll have to go back and skim the previous pages 'cause I seem to remember you mentioning it before.

I'm on the lookout for a small motorcycle gneerator or starter motor or similar for just the same purpose.

I need to charge a small battery to run the Cold Cathode tubes and some led's for night lighting on The Contraption. I originally thought of using solar, but thought this might be a better way to go.

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:34 pm

You guys are so cool.

Any one rember the mower that you would wind up a spring then press the button to start the mower?

(used the same spring a pull start mower used)

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:38 pm

Yowza! From brainstorming to prototype in under 24 hours!

I too love all the stories you all are sharing here, thanks! The Ametek 30-60vdc motors make good generators for charging 12v batteries with wind (or people) power.
edit...WOW! Love that tricycle!!!

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:12 pm

you will love the link

http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_p ... index.html

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

I'd seen some of these before and saved them for reference when first starting the Contraption. If it was this site, it's been updated and has a lot more pics on it now.

I love the Airphibian and the snow-screwmobile things.

Great link Mozy.

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:55 am

Is the crank counter balanced or does it fall to the bottom with the chain and pump rod off?

In order to balance the weight of the piston-and-rod assembly, counterbalances such as are shown at B, may be used.