2008 "American Dream" theme

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How much do you like the 2008 "American Dream" theme?

Lame. Lame. Lame.
215
30%
Lame. Lame. Lame.
215
30%
Sort of lame.
60
8%
Sort of lame.
60
8%
Good enough.
32
5%
Good enough.
32
5%
Brilliant. Inspiring.
47
7%
Brilliant. Inspiring.
47
7%
 
Total votes: 708

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:48 am

I kind of like Xhile's take on it all. Having met some of the Kiwi Insurgents last year, albiet breifly, they seem to embody the spirit of BRC far better than BRC.

Then again, as I remember hearing somewhere the whole idea is to eventually do away with the BRC burn nand have them all be regionals. Maybe that's why the bizarre themes.

As to the conservative inclusionaryism (how's that for a mock-up word?) why not? It's a pretty well founded rumor that the board is conservative, the People of Rural Nevada (like Pershing and northern Washoe counties) are hyper-conservative, so why not play to that theme, and at the same time start pushing people away from the event?

So - the theme in 09 will be...

Hmmm...

Porta Potty Dining. 2010 is the Anti-Drug and Alcohol movement. 2011 will have to do with (who are those nutcases) the man-boy love thing, Ewwww... 2011 there will be NO ice and NO coffee on playa, a reduced number of porta potties, and a 100 fold increase in Law Enforcement types on the Playa. 2012 is the Pollution Crisis - No vehicles allowed, ALL camping will be walk in (from parking out at 12 mile).

Doing our part to drop the BRC population below 10K...
bb

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Post by Greens » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:55 am

Truth be told, as a non-American, this theme does deter me from attending next year. It is not that I am anti-American, or have a problem with the "original" notion of the American Dream, but rather that the modern notion of the American Dream brings with it far too much baggage after several decades of horrific US foreign policy. I have no problem with a theme of patriotism and cultural identity, but wrapping this theme in the American flag is an immediate step towards radical exclusion!

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:08 am

Greens wrote:Truth be told, as a non-American, this theme does deter me from attending next year. It is not that I am anti-American, or have a problem with the "original" notion of the American Dream, but rather that the modern notion of the American Dream brings with it far too much baggage after several decades of horrific US foreign policy. I have no problem with a theme of patriotism and cultural identity, but wrapping this theme in the American flag is an immediate step towards radical exclusion!
\/
here is anothe first time post poster.. what a bunch of trolls..

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Post by punface » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:18 am

Agreed. The term 'American Dream' is too loaded with politics for now. Don't get me wrong I am all for participating in the political process... it's just that a term like this is too gullible.

"the American Dream? Which one? The one about killing civilians for our oil interests? Or the one about filling the world with terror paranoia to fuel the US military complex? Or the one about the environment just takes care of itself and we can remain the freest dirtiest polluters of the planet?
No, you say? You mean the gullible dream of infinite American possibility? Yeah sure. We all believe in that. Totally."

Distance from ideology?

Please, scratch the American part. Leave the dream. How about a "New Dream"? Isn't it high time to dump the dreams that have lied to us?

Greens
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Post by Greens » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:28 am

[quote="unjonharley"][quote="Greens"]Truth be told, as a non-American, this theme does deter me from attending next year. It is not that I am anti-American, or have a problem with the "original" notion of the American Dream, but rather that the modern notion of the American Dream brings with it far too much baggage after several decades of horrific US foreign policy. I have no problem with a theme of patriotism and cultural identity, but wrapping this theme in the American flag is an immediate step towards radical exclusion![/quote]

\/
here is anothe first time post poster.. what a bunch of trolls..[/quote]

Hmm. Didn't realize that I needed to cancel my social life to make over 3000 posts in order to qualify for this discussion Unjonharley. Perhaps I will take the next two weeks off and do nothing but blog so that I can feel like a real Burner like you.

In reality, I love the passionate discussion that this theme has provoked, and welcome discussion from both sides of the argument. Wow, I'm up to two posts now!

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Don't be rooked into thinking that American = Bad.

Post by honeyfire » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:41 am

So the American Dream is that we suck?
I don't buy it.

In another thread kikidelosfeliz mentions:
"[my] images of the man ... change every year (man with Icarus wings in 2004, man as tree with leaves for 2007). For the upcoming theme, though, it might have to be the man with a dollar sign."

Is that what the American Dream actually is?

I don't see the AmDr as "we're richer than anyone else so we can do what we want".
That's the lie, NOT the Dream.

Some people might see this as an opportunity to reclaim and reinvigorate the Dream.

The Dream is that we actually can get together out in the desert and do this.
That we have the freedom of speech to post here and say what we think, that we don't have to go to the OfficialStateReligion summer camp for further indoctrination, that if we don't like what's going on we can work to change it.

Most of us have not spent any time in a genuine fascist totalitarian state and so we take for granted the rights we have.
In one way this is a beautiful thing. I'm really glad i've never had to hide my ethnicity/religion/ideology/whatever, and that it seems natural to me that i can say what i think.
In another way, it's easy for us to lose sight of what we really have.
Go to North Korea for a week and look around, see how it is.
Talk to anyone who lived in Chile in the 70's.

To me, the American Dream has never been about the house and the car and oh yeah the 2.5 kids and the dog.
The American Dream is about being able to be who we are without being shot down in the street for it.

I'm well aware of how money is mostly running things and how the concept of patriotism has been stolen and twisted by people to whom "rights" mean "my right to exploit you for my gain".
They're wrong, so don't let the way they've pushed their agenda into the forefront make you think they've won.

Maybe i'll make myself a flag outfit for next year. There's no reason that the symbol that should mean freedom and equality has to be subverted to mean greed and imperialist bullshit.
I'm just trying not to be liveMOOP...

Civil rights: use 'em or lose 'em!

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Re: Don't be rooked into thinking that American = Bad.

Post by blyslv » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:04 am

honeyfire wrote:
The Dream is that we actually can get together out in the desert and do this.
That we have the freedom of speech to post here and say what we think, that we don't have to go to the OfficialStateReligion summer camp for further indoctrination, that if we don't like what's going on we can work to change it.

Most of us have not spent any time in a genuine fascist totalitarian state and so we take for granted the rights we have.
MEGADITTOS!

eeep!


Americans are for the most part Hobbits, in their clean comfortable holes, well fed and self-centered. They are protected by Rangers AKA the US Constitution, and like the Hobbits, Americans have only fear and contempt and ignorance for what protects them. For the most part.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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Post by Toolmaker » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:30 am

The theme is pure genius. It will be what participants make it. Regardless of your feelings/opinions/impressions.. you are free to make what you want. Enjoy your freedom to express yourself as you see fit in the best city in the world come 2008.
This account has been closed as demanded by Wedeliver.

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Teo del Fuego
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Post by Teo del Fuego » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:18 am

Greens wrote: Hmm. Didn't realize that I needed to cancel my social life to make over 3000 posts in order to qualify for this discussion Unjonharley. Perhaps I will take the next two weeks off and do nothing but blog so that I can feel like a real Burner like you.
Very well said. As I've said before: High post count indicates little more than a boring day job (or unemployment) and obsessive compulsive tendencies. Larry Harvey's post count is "1."

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Re: This Post Sponsored By Diebold

Post by COPPERFISH » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:25 am

[quote="ravenluv"]

i love the idea of letting a vote take place! very quaker-like. highly important when forming the theme of a revolution.
one practical issue: if there were lots of theme ideas submitted, there is a good chance that the top pick would still only have garnered 25 percent of the vote. seems that there would need to be two votes if more than two ideas were submitted.
but then....could it not be argued that the majority ruled theme was just as imposed and invalid as the administratively assigned theme? sure it could!
but if we can subvert the official theme in a profound way, then it will be a triumph for the freedom of imagination. even if the winner wasn't universally accepted, such a vote would at least give us some vague idea of what to expect at the event. the main goal here is to inspire massive ignorance of the official theme while providing inspiration for those artists who like to come up with ideas to fit the theme.
that being said: please vote for my idea!
dreaming of a better world - show us YOUR utopian vision
[/quote]

I just wanted to announce that I think I'm a troll, if I am getting the definition right. I come on sometimes but its been so long since I have logged on that I had to make a new account cause I forgot my login and pass for my other account. But yeah sometimes i get bored of talking to people like this so i say my bit and I'm out.

But having said that I think I could commit to discussing this Alternative Theming of 2008 for a while ... maybe, haha.


Anywhoo,

Yeah, Raven Luv - the actual implementation will of course be tricky. what if 1000 people submit ideas for themes? How do we get that number down to a managable one?

2 to 3 rounds of voting may be needed and then the final one could be a run-off vote of some sort. You can rate on a scale of 1-10 how you like all of the final choices.

Hey, who made the voting thingy for this post? Could we do a trial run with a few entries and see how that works?

Then the PR part. Making our chosen Theme the main catalyst for the themed art on the playa. It seems like there is enough public support that people will gravitate to something else if given the choice. Especially if it is something they voted for and have some ownership over.

My input for a theme: Burning Man: The Diaspora. we all come from all over so lets explore what it means to belong to several places, to come together and to spread out, to spread our BM culture. its the blending and the overlap that interests....
If you need something to worship, then worship life — all life, every last crawling bit of it! We're all in this beauty together!
Paul Muad'Dib Atreides

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Re: Don't be rooked into thinking that American = Bad.

Post by punface » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:50 am

[quote="honeyfire"]
The Dream is that we actually can get together out in the desert and do this.
That we have the freedom of speech to post here and say what we think, that we don't have to go to the OfficialStateReligion summer camp for further indoctrination, that if we don't like what's going on we can work to change it.
[/quote]

Thank God for the U.S. then! Without the greatest and freest country the rest of this sorry-ass world would have no freedom of speech or thought. And have no parties either.

The boundaries of our countries and the ensuing political messes and wars of resources devide us. It's nice to have a thought provoking theme; but with legal action against the early man-burner, more and more cops on the scene and more large scale organizations and interests playing a role, the 'American Dream' in the burning man sense is evaporating.

Doesn't the term American Dream imply that other peoples have not dreamt of self-realization and freedom of thought and speech and fought to realize them? These dreams did not originate in America alone. The stage of this planet belongs to us all. This theme smacks of naive redneck self-centeredness.

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It is a dream

Post by Rich » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:04 pm

Greens wrote:Truth be told, as a non-American, this theme does deter me from attending next year. It is not that I am anti-American, or have a problem with the "original" notion of the American Dream, but rather that the modern notion of the American Dream...
I believe that the US is the only nation whose cultural identity, whose very sense of self, is based on the process of creating dreams and myths.

There is no original notion of an American Dream, there is no one American Dream, there are many American Dreams, and many myths we use to define ourselves. And the ability to create new dreams and new myths is the meta-rule that provides structure.

The John Wayne war myth is no more, or less, the American Dream than Burning Man, the Summer of Love, and the Rainbow family.

Welcome to America...now create and define yourself!

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To sleep, perchance to dream....

Post by lurker » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:49 pm

What language is not spoken here? What cuisine not eaten? What culture, nation, faith, ethnicity does not show itself here?

What noble acts--and base degeneracies do not find a place here?

What cultures are created here/ Of whole cloth and imagination? Of drugs and music? Of faith, of science, of hope?

Of all the nations on the world, only one is truly an amalgam of all others.

It had no culture of its own--an idea built on land stolen bought and killed for.

And such things it built!

Could Hollywood exist anywhere else? Disneyworld? Burning Man?

Even in times of woe, America is the only nation that strives beyond it's means, that looks to see over the horizon, the world, the stars.

Mistakes. False starts. Horrible errors. All are part of this reaching.

And America says anyone can reach, anyone can strive, anyone can be rich in whatever their definition of rich contains.

Do you know why?

Because America is a dream.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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Post by lurker » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:57 pm

I can't help but wonder how many who advocate a theme of 'Global dream' are against globalisation?

How many shuddered at that picture of the McDonalds around the world?

Despite the fact that those McDonalds are all locally owned--that's how they franchise. People wanted McDonalds there. Some local had to put down hard cash and decide to open a McDonalds.

What if that's part of the global dream? What if the global dream includes cheap consumer goods? choices in what to have for dinner? obesity as a problem of the poor? a life that is not held hostage to subsistence?

just curious....
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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Moonpie
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Stupid Theme

Post by Moonpie » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:54 pm

I had such a great time at this year's BM and will have a great time next year as people tend to disregard the theme more and more as being irrelevant. Even the theme parties in LA...people are now disregarding the themes and doing what they want and dressing how they feel.

For me, the Green Man was a stupid politicized theme but the Man burned magnificently added to by the burning derrick. It was fantastic! BM was not diminished one bit for me by a stupid theme

2008 theme is particularly bad. The Playa is so other-worldly...if an extra terrestrial alien would land in the middle of the Playa they would hardly go noticed. The past themes,
The Inferno, Fertility, Nebulous Entity, Wheel of Time, The Body, The Floating World,
Beyond Belief, The Vault of Heaven, Psyche, Hope and Fear: The Future all evoke “other worldlinessâ€

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Re: To sleep, perchance to dream....

Post by chiefdanfox » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:55 pm

lurker wrote: Because America is a dream.
As a dream, America is the charming, the soft, the wicked and the grotesque.

As a place, America is a thundering landscape wherein dreamers gather.

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Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:13 pm

I like the way this discussion is going which is to say, riffing on it to see if it works.

The "American" part troubles me simply because I don't know whether a Burner from New Zealand or South Africa has any idea what makes our dream any more significant than theirs, or even exactly what it is.

I believe the "American Dream" is practically Wiccan: The freedom to succeed based on your own character, and without violating the rights of your neighbor.

'Course, it usually requires a scapegoat, like in "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas", but so does BRC. There are probably countless ways in which the Burning Man festival reflects the virtues and vices of The American Dream.

-zb
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Post by Teo del Fuego » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:19 pm

Moonpie has a good point. The Green Man theme sucked but it had little effect on my experience.

The damn Rod Garrett Pavillion, on the other hand, did have a significant effect on my Burn, particularly as I was so blown away by the 2005 Fun House. The Pavillion was not a place anyone cared to congregate. It was not a focal point or a gathering spot. It was given the same response a giant piss puddle would have gotten.

I do feel like BMorg raised their collective leg this year and pissed on the Man. Looks like they are loading their bladder for an extra drenching next year. Im sure Larry is sick and tired of the bitchin and moaning...but he has options. Take a year off, go to the Bahamas, or dont peel off two fuckin lame themes in a row. According to Marion, Larry doesnt do a helluva lot other than pick a theme and cobble it up woith some prose and quotations. (I personally dont believe his involvement is that minimal, but Marion is the one who said BMorg could run just as fine without him.)

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Re: 2008 "American Dream" theme

Post by madmatt » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:54 pm

Pyramis wrote:This is my first impression. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Yet another stupid idea from BORG. Yet again, Fuck the Theme! What Theme? The real theme every year is Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll! That's the American Dream! That's the Theme! Fuck the Theme!

fuck the theme fuck the man fuck larry harvey fuck larry's hat FUCK THE PAVILLION fuck center camp fuck the 10 principles

fuck the theme fuck the man fuck larry harvey fuck larry's hat FUCK THE PAVILLION fuck center camp fuck the 10 principles

fuck the theme fuck the man fuck larry harvey fuck larry's hat FUCK THE PAVILLION fuck center camp fuck the 10 principles

fuck the theme fuck the man fuck larry harvey fuck larry's hat FUCK THE PAVILLION fuck center camp fuck the 10 principles

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Burning Man Community

Post by Saki » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:07 pm

If Burning Man is really a city it would be the only autocratic city I know of in the US.

I would like to see the Burning Man community become more involved in the event.

Why not vote on the theme? Let the people of BRC handle Paul Addis. We should have influence over the costs of ice and where the money goes.

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Re: 2008 "American Dream" theme

Post by Saki » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:14 pm

[quote="madmatt"][quote="Pyramis"]This is my first impression. Curious to hear your thoughts.[/quote]

Yet another stupid idea from BORG.[/quote]

BMORG is disingenuous. If Burning Man were really a non-profit organization I would have no problem with the name. But since it is an LLC, I think it should be referred to as BMLLC (pronounced "Bumlick")

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Post by Badger » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:28 pm

BMORG is disingenuous. If Burning Man were really a non-profit organization I would have no problem with the name. But since it is an LLC, I think it should be referred to as BMLLC
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Re: Burning Man Community

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:47 pm

Saki wrote:If Burning Man is really a city it would be the only autocratic city I know of in the US.

I would like to see the Burning Man community become more involved in the event.

Why not vote on the theme? Let the people of BRC handle Paul Addis. We should have influence over the costs of ice and where the money goes.
Some of your questions can be answered here from Lady B herself!

http://pissclear.org/PDFArchives/PissCl ... t_2007.pdf

AIIZ

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Post by Aurei » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:00 pm

*Reposted from another post of mine*

So Burning Man is turning into everything I hate! What's with the f***ing "American Dream" Theme Bullshi*!???

Burning Man is selling out, and going way too commercial. WTF happened?

I was planning a dope theme camp and art car for next year, because I didn't have enough time to do it this year, but because of theme (like you said) I WILL NOT RETURN TO BURNING MAN NEXT YEAR UNLESS THE THEME IS CHANGED!

Do they realize how much bullshi* political crap that theme is going to drag out to the playa?
Do they realize that theme goes against every fu**ing thing I thought Burning Man stood for?
Do they realize... how many burners they are going to lose next year, due to that theme?

obviously not...

I'd like to make a letter against that theme, and have it sent all over the place and signed in hopes of them realizing they were retards when they came up with that shi*! Maybe change the theme, while it's still early? SERIOUSLY!

I was already disapointed by the not so "burning man" feeling I got out there this year, but I still had fun, the art was still rad, and the burn on both the man and the oil tower were some of the most amazing things I have ever seen, because Burning Man stepped it up as far as that goes, this year.

But seriously... change this red white and blue bullshi* to something amazing and overall... FUN!

I don't want to be handed Burning Man political crap the whole time I am out there next year (if I went of course). It doesn't make sense to me.

Burning Man is an alter reality where people can be themselves, express themselves, outside of the petty bullshi* politics we deal with every day already.

DO THEY REALLY THINK THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET SHIT FOR THAT THEME???
"Don't Dream it, BE IT!"

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Intriguing...

Post by honeyfire » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:24 pm

Just by the way, ravenluv and others have suggested:

"history tells us the specific ideas that were tried in america began in europe."

One might also bear in mind that a fair chunk of what became the Constitution was based on the Constitution of the Iriquois Confederacy.

I think it's actually pretty telling that this theme has generated so much heat so quickly.
Art does not come from a vacuum, does it?
I'm just trying not to be liveMOOP...

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i have only so much patience for whiners...

Post by honeyfire » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:43 pm

I sayed:
"The Dream is that we actually can get together out in the desert and do this.
That we have the freedom of speech to post here and say what we think, that we don't have to go to the OfficialStateReligion summer camp for further indoctrination, that if we don't like what's going on we can work to change it."

Punface responded:
"Thank God for the U.S. then! Without the greatest and freest country the rest of this sorry-ass world would have no freedom of speech or thought. And have no parties either."

I'll give you a thousand dollars for every place in my post that i said any of this. That you heard my words that way does not mean that i was actually saying that.
If this is your opinion, then claim it or quit typing.

"the 'American Dream' in the burning man sense is evaporating."

Well, fuckin' DUH.
Why else do you think anyone thought it might be an interesting idea to pursue artistically?

"Doesn't the term American Dream imply that other peoples have not dreamt of self-realization and freedom of thought and speech and fought to realize them?"

Nope.
Not to me, and if it does to you, then go do something about it.
What do you think i was referring to in mentioning Chile, just for example?
Instead of people just reading a shitload of corporate/military meglomania into the phrase American Dream, how about exploring the idea of dreaming up a new America?
If the actions of the people and govt of this country didn't have an effect on the rest of the world, nobody'd be bitching about this, would they?
So how about we work on being a positive influence on the rest of the world instead of just bitching about how Americans all suck?
I don't suck. I'm a really nice peson, i live as green as i can currently manage, i treat people as well as i can, i try to spread the good as far as possible in as many ways as i can.
Oh, wait, i DO suck, and i swallow too.

Anyone who is complaining about the theme or how the burn or the world looks these days:
Put as much energy into positive change as you have into this bitchfest and maybe you won't have so much to bitch about by next year, eh?
Put up or shut up.
I'm just trying not to be liveMOOP...

Civil rights: use 'em or lose 'em!

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Re: It is a dream

Post by olivia » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:00 pm

Rich wrote:I believe that the US is the only nation whose cultural identity, whose very sense of self, is based on the process of creating dreams and myths.
Maybe you should look up the Aboriginal dreamtime.

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Re: It is a dream

Post by Rich » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:23 pm

olivia wrote:
Rich wrote:I believe that the US is the only nation whose cultural identity, whose very sense of self, is based on the process of creating dreams and myths.
Maybe you should look up the Aboriginal dreamtime.
The cultural identity of the Aborigines is certainly based on dreams, but it is not based on the process of creating new dreams and myths.

Presumably just about everyone in the world has dreams and myths that provide a context for their lives. But I continue to assert that we are the only country where the process of creating new dreams and myths is the key to our identity.

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Post by francesco » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:27 pm

this is another face of our imperial arrogance.

we the people of the united states, consider ourselves to be the only americans. remember, if you are from peru, el salvador, canada, or chile you are also an american. if you travel central and south america, the folks there are always in awe and disgust at how the united statsens or north americans take the word american for themselves and themselves only. america starts in alaska and ends in tierra del fuego or vise a versa.

this is another reason that the theme american dream makes no sense. it's a home-grown and bottled concept that only applies to the americans in the united states. most americans don't even live in the united states or even speak english.

to find this arrogance and ignorance at burning man is very troubling.

i know larry is not all that bright, but this makes him look a bit like king george in his arrogance and ignorance.

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ravenluv
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Raven til the Break of Dawn

Post by ravenluv » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:00 pm

like a raven squawking from the roof....

caw caw caw

i'm just going to keep saying it again and again (at least until i have to go back to work...)

ignore the theme

or

dream of a better world

show us the place you want to be

it doesn't have to be american

or have anything to do with america



from afar i think.....either larry, who i've never met, is brilliant or this really is a conservative conspiracy. or maybe they've created a theme so badly received that many won't be disappointed when the event doesn't happen.

i choose to think he's brilliant. or a thief. paul addis spoke of the american dream in a wired interview on 8/30.

i think people are afraid this is going to be a politicized art festival. so i'm putting it out there, we can subvert it! and yes, those who love america can show us why. but i'd rather see broader visions than that.

dreaming of a better world.........there's nothing un-american about it, nor uniquely american. nor is there anything that says because we once helped to bring that better world about, we always will. what we know as america emerged from other past better worlds - including that of the iroquois.

what makes this theme repugnant to many is the implication of boundaries. why should a dream be limited to a specific national identity?

if we can't get them to change the theme out there, we can change it within. if the majority doesn't like the theme, then the majority of the art should fail to honor it. meanwhile, if a minority likes it, they can feel free to express it.

i don't want to puzzle over the future of america while at burning man. i'd love to see visions of better worlds - even mythical ones of old.

show us your visions! atlantis? heaven? a post-apocalyptic paradise? whatever....just make it yours! teo says to call the theme 'the dream'. i say 'dreaming of a better world'. it doesn't matter. whatever it takes to steer clear of loading the event with politics is fine with me.

as for me, i'd hoping to join up with or be part of a playful revolt hell bent on making sure this theme doesn't enslave any artists.

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