Black Rock City is the American Dream

RevolutionaryForHire
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Black Rock City is the American Dream

Post by RevolutionaryForHire » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:53 pm

And don't ever forget that.

The American Dream is 50,000 people gathering in the Desert once a year to celebrate Peace and Love.

The American Dream is trading in your urban uniform for a pair of goggles and a dust mask, and, while the rest of the world mindlessly treks on in their airconditioned palaces, you step out of your tent for a bike ride in the Dust Storm.

The American Dream is not just reciting the 1st Amendment, but invoking it for every purpose from writing silly things in the dirt on your car to respectfully expressing to the RV Burners with endless consumer goods (wasteful packaging pre-"disposed" of) hauled in from LA that maybe they missed the point...

The American Dream is waking up one day to realize that the vast majority of this country have been sold an American Dream as hollow and empty as the housing developments they are living in, and that it will be buried alive with the sub-prime mortgage market.

The American Dream is being outraged that Burning Man would ever choose a theme so (insert adjective) and holding protests on the playa to demostrate the mass dissatisfaction.

The American Dream is bringing two art installations to the playa this year: One that encapsulates what you love most about this country, and one that encapsulates what enrages the deepest revolutionary bone in your body.

Or better yet, bringing one art installation that encapsulates both.

The American Dream is incinerating the flag of the nation that gives one such a right to express such grievances.

The American Dream is returning to the default world every September with a renewed hope for humanity.

The American Dream is that exactly: The beautiful dream endowed upon us by our creator that we are sovereign citizens in this universe, that we are masters of our own destiny, and that human beings are good decent people who can beautifully coexist when just given the chance.

Whether or not that dream has been realized for us, or we are just another group in line to help move us closer to one day establishing the government for the people, by the people, and of the people that was once imagined, the arbitrary lines in the sand we call the United States of America contain an incredibly powerful tool. A tool that could be used to bring peace and justice the world at large, or a tool that can resigned to the people who have exploited its powers this whole time.

Be the Change. Make it happen. Take this year's theme and run with it.

Does the current version of Revolutionaries' painting look a little dingy these days? Having trouble making out those inaliable rights? Then grab some soap and start cleaning for godesses' sake! Who do you think is going to start mopping up this mess?

What is your American Dream?
Tell the playa all about your beautiful vision, and show them how they can take is back to the default word.

Does all the flag waving and blind nationalism make your stomach turn?
Build a Stars & Stripes confessional where we can express our remorse and ask for forgiveness, and create penances where for the people to bring just to the world.

War'd out by the War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Poverty, War on Tooth Decay?
Hold a Communications workshop showing how to unite a people around a positive cause.

Think it's time to go back to the drawing board?
Then hold the 3rd Consitutional Convention, and submit your plan.

Think we're barking up a dead tree and there's no hope for Jesusland?
Then let BRC be the founding place of the next American Revolution.

Remember, there is no US Consitution because the colonists sat around talking about how frustrated they were with King George. If you read Howard Zinn, you might find that infact, very similar to today, the vast majority of the population was rather indifferent to Colonial Independence, and it was only due to the exeptional efforts of a concentrated few that there is even an American Dream to be debated.

Let this theme inspire you to spark the Revolution and start carving out your dream, be it American, Earthly, Galactical, or Universal.
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the change.

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:23 am

right on.
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Post by Kinetik V » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:46 am

It's a shame the rules discourage crossposting...there's a few threads that need that post in there. It's perfect.
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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:40 am

They could use it in the BM tribe also. :o
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SFbrothermichael
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YES.

Post by SFbrothermichael » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:40 am

beautifully written.
inspiring.
thank you.

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Post by Toolmaker » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:05 am

Do the rules prohibit the rest of us from putting the quoted text in the other threads?
This account has been closed as demanded by Wedeliver.

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Post by TheFunkHole » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:13 pm

Now we're playing with power.

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Post by Rolan Headon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:32 am

Hey Toolmaker, thanks for the last two quotes (Revolutionary, you're hired!) transfered to "Fuck This Theme" thread...
The first one is right on and the second a pack of lies!
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Post by lurker » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:47 pm

Black Rock City is the American Dream
And don't ever forget that.
Precisely.
The American Dream is 50,000 people gathering in the Desert once a year to celebrate Peace and Love
.

Well, that's your American Dream...
The American Dream is trading in your urban uniform for a pair of goggles and a dust mask, and, while the rest of the world mindlessly treks on in their airconditioned palaces, you step out of your tent for a bike ride in the Dust Storm.
And your American Dream doesn't seem so happy with others American Dreams. What's wrong with a bit of air conditioning? AND a romp in a dust storm? One does not preclude the other....
The American Dream is not just reciting the 1st Amendment, but invoking it for every purpose from writing silly things in the dirt on your car to respectfully expressing to the RV Burners with endless consumer goods (wasteful packaging pre-"disposed" of) hauled in from LA that maybe they missed the point...
And your American Dream includes 'respectfully' harassing people who brought the creature comforts of their choice so that they could enjoy their American Dreams....
The American Dream is waking up one day to realize that the vast majority of this country have been sold an American Dream as hollow and empty as the housing developments they are living in, and that it will be buried alive with the sub-prime mortgage market.


And your American Dream includes belittling the striving of others as they pursue Happiness in their own way.
The American Dream is being outraged that Burning Man would ever choose a theme so (insert adjective) and holding protests on the playa to demostrate the mass dissatisfaction.
And your American Dream includes attacking the people who thought up the very thing that you called The American Dream.....I'm starting to wonder....

Is your American Dream a Dream or a Nightmare?

Your Dream seems to be limiting and belittling all those who do things in a different fashion from you. Your Dream seems to include attempting to impose your Dream over others' Dreams.
The American Dream is bringing two art installations to the playa this year: One that encapsulates what you love most about this country, and one that encapsulates what enrages the deepest revolutionary bone in your body.

Or better yet, bringing one art installation that encapsulates both.


This, though is a constructive idea. To fuse that which you love with that which you hate. How to feel about the resulting chimera?
The American Dream is incinerating the flag of the nation that gives one such a right to express such grievances.
But this is just silly. Surely an enlightened worldview can see that burning the flag of a country to express outrage at that country is meaningless in a country whose laws allow you to do it? Whose laws will protect you if someone feels it's wrong that you did it?
The American Dream is returning to the default world every September with a renewed hope for humanity.
And yes again. Hope springs from BRC. But it's not all the same hope, do you understand? We do not all hope for the same thing any more than we Dream of the same thing.

What a sad dull world it would be if we did.
The American Dream is that exactly: The beautiful dream endowed upon us by our creator that we are sovereign citizens in this universe, that we are masters of our own destiny, and that human beings are good decent people who can beautifully coexist when just given the chance.


And yes again. But this is an American idea--or, better a Western one. It is not shared by many of our fellow travellers on this benighted globe. Some would assign our sovereignty to their gods--and some would try to snatch it for themselves. And I am sad to say that not a few of those would use that Western ideal of self-sovereignty to rob others of it.
Does the current version of Revolutionaries' painting look a little dingy these days? Having trouble making out those inaliable rights? Then grab some soap and start cleaning for godesses' sake! Who do you think is going to start mopping up this mess?
Good old American get-up-and-go. A bit of elbow grease, and that olde Puritan work ethic and we'll have things shiny in no time.

Of course, a lot of us'll be naked. And some will be wearing funny hats and goggles. And a few will just be enjoying the pretty colors. But hey--you don't need to BE a Puritan to use their work ethic...right?
What is your American Dream?
Tell the playa all about your beautiful vision, and show them how they can take is back to the default word.
That's the trick--take it home. Infect the default world.
Does all the flag waving and blind nationalism make your stomach turn? Build a Stars & Stripes confessional where we can express our remorse and ask for forgiveness, and create penances where for the people to bring just to the world.


Does all the flag-burning and hippy internationalism make your stomach turn? Build a miniature Lenin's Tomb and hand out Vladmir-cakes and Maopuccino in celebration of the free market.
War'd out by the War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on Poverty, War on Tooth Decay? Hold a Communications workshop showing how to unite a people around a positive cause.


Sick of hearing 'War is not the answer'? Hold a communcations workshop and remembrance ceremony celebrating the free Blacks and living Jews who have a very different take on that

But if you do those last two things, you might want to do them in secret--they might be the kinda things RevolutionaryForHires' American Dream frowns upon--and since that Dream seems wedded, in a lot of ways, to limiting, suppressing, and imposing, those last two ideas might not go over well.

And that's a shame. Because RevolutionaryForHire's first statement was so absolutely, wonderfully true.

Black Rock City is the American Dream
And don't ever forget that.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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Post by BitterDan » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:55 pm

What's wrong with a bit of air conditioning?
My tent is air conditioned. 8)
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Post by mdmf007 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:07 pm

I dont hav enough cord to reach over to first camp

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Re: YES.

Post by Evolve » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:26 pm

[quote="SFbrothermichael"]beautifully written.
inspiring.
thank you.[/quote]

QFT.

Great post, thank you

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be the change

Post by myredcarpet » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:10 pm

"We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the change."
Beautiful, couldn't have said it better!

I am finding it interesting how much my opinion of this theme is evoling with each thread I read. I despised the theme at first, but subconsiouly it has gotton us all dreaming... After reading too much negativity, AMEN I had said after I read your post, then I read the long but nonetheless eloquent retort to your post and it had me agreeing with both sides. The beauty is that we have the right to be offended and the freedom to make our own opinions. We all value something different and that's what make life so damn spicy! Granted, the universal balance is in dire need to tilt a bit more positive. The playa is a confluence of this energy where we can once a year be filled to the brim... and in true burningman style, we all need to remember to GIFT it to the default world to initiate the change.

Dream on.
"Reach out, take a chance. Get hurt even. Play as well as you can.. LIVE!" Maude

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Post by Rolan Headon » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:05 am

So, Lurker, now you're afraid of being frowned on? Better stay away from mirrors.
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Post by lurker » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Rolan Headon wrote:So, Lurker, now you're afraid of being frowned on? Better stay away from mirrors.
into what? A wall? rolan headon into....enquiring minds wanna know.

Why's it so hard to grasp that maybe someone elses' dreams aren't the same as yours? That maybe someone wants to be a chubby fanny-pack wearing ogler in an RV gifting people out their window because they're afraid of spontaneous combustion if they leave the AC?

That the whole point of the theme is not 'force your opinion on everyone(that one of those BAD things that people complain about the US doing)', but do your thing, show people your American Dream.

Why are so many of you focused on complaining as your dream?

And, don't get me wrong, if that's REALLY what your dreams are filled with, go for it. But stop chastising the people whose heads still run wild with dreams.
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Post by Rolan Headon » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:00 am

Are you positive your view of positivity is the only positive one?
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Post by Rolan Headon » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:23 am

Yawn, sun comes up and insomniacs go to work. But I've been thinking about what you say, Lurker. You are obviously a thoughtful person with great faith in your reason and logic. Will try to answer your question about what Rolan Headon is rolling into tho you are too intelligent to be swayed by my thoughts most likely. It may take a few days but if you want you can read this coming post eventually. It will only be the opinion of a high school dropout, but maybe will provide some small fuel for your righteous fires.
By the way, from what do you lurk, with your razor blades?
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Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:09 am

"The American Dream is incinerating the flag of the nation that gives one such a right to express such grievances."

Actually, America doesn't give us that right; it recognizes and protects it.

Your comment about the Revolutionary painting reminds me of one I saw behind at a bookstore in Fredericksburg, VA: It was an exact replica of a stately oil painting of George Washington, except he was wearing Mickey Mouse ears.

The painting was obviously made in protest of Disney's attempt in the 1990s to turn the Bull Run battlefield into a theme park. (Washington, of course, was long dead by Bull Run.) I wanted to the painting but the proprietor put it there to make a statement so it wasn't for sale.

Maybe a good thematic protest would be a statue of Ben Franklin dressed up as a burner, or just in drag. He'd have loved that, especially if there was a pint of beer in his hand.

-c
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Post by TD-2441 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:50 am

It's interesting that this 2008 theme seems to have riled up so many people. Considering it's the Presidential Race this year I think it's great that BM are making Americans THINK about their country, about "the American Dream", about where America is today, and where it will go in the future.

You guys are about to elect someone to take the reins of Most Powerful Person on Planet....so shit yes, THINK ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY and it's future and who you want to run it and where you want to go and what pisses you off about America and what you love about it, and what you want to be and what your dreams are for your country, and how this will affect the rest of the world.

Well done to BM for stirring up all these emotions in everyone and for having this Theme I say! 8)
"I bought a cactus. A week later it died. And I got depressed, because I thought, Damn. I am less nurturing than a desert". - Demetri Martin

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Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:26 pm

TD-2441 wrote:It's interesting that this 2008 theme seems to have riled up so many people. Considering it's the Presidential Race this year I think it's great that BM are making Americans THINK about their country, about "the American Dream", about where America is today, and where it will go in the future.
Yeah, I guess it's that time. Burning Man 2004 had a few annoyances. The camp behind us at 7:30 Mercury had a hand-grenade throwing practice range with a picture of Bush at the other end of it. I didn't go to Burning Man to think about Bush, or angry Bezerkely hippiecrits dressed up as terrorists and warlords throwing fake grenades at him either, for that matter. It's their art, though.

I have to admit I enjoyed the "Republican Voting Booth" stickers somebody put on the toilets.

There were some burners running around with bullhorns telling people to vote Republican, etc, that caused me to look around for a water cannon. I was dozing off at about 4:22 in the camp hammock, enjoying the breeze and sunshine and relative quiet, and suddenly some jackass started hollering into our camp telling us to vote Republican. Massively uncool.

Thanks for the post because it reminds me to be prepared this year.

-c
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Post by lurker » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:38 pm

Are you positive your view of positivity is the only positive one?
Positive.

Complaining is just that....complaining.

Yeah you get to 'enlighten' everyong about the things you're complaining about, and you might even like that, so fine.

But without doing something about the things you're complaining about, you shortly morph into something someone else is complaining about--the ceaseless braying.

Black Rock City is a dream. It's a place where we can twist reality up into the shape we like--the shape we think is best. The shape that we want things to be in. Maybe the shape of some solutions.

So instead of shrieking about the unfairness of it all, why not show us how you think it should be?
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Post by Rolan Headon » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:49 am

Well, Lurker,
Let's see, can anyone be critical in your dream America? Can anyone comment that your particular sacred cow may be fat and smoking Marlboros? Or should that be shameful and unpatriotic? In my America you can RIDICULE a sacred cow if you want, the vice president can dismiss you as a nattering negabob, Tammy Faye Baker can wear all the makeup she wants and you can go on in your ever so positive way, with your endless positive comments. (Have you ever noticed how sweet and caring your posts are?)

You can ridicule any person with a religious belief as weak-minded, as you have, call for a first nuclear strike against the Muslim portion of humanity, as you have, and drive you RV all over the playa, OK? Hopefully no one will 'harass' you with a respectful comment or upset your little delicate self, or think you could possibly be an arrogant fool. Have you tried earplugs and blindfolds? I'm worried about your peace of mind in BRC.

There are so many perspectives of the same things. You can celebrate America, the hard working Puritans, the brave and resourceful pioneers, the dedication to freedom, the opportunity and embracing of innovation, hard work, generosity. All absolutely true and wonderful. But maybe not ignore a perspective of my friend, Jim, raised on a reservation, that points out that your ancestors also could be viewed as ruthless and bloody exploiters in a rich land with abundant resources which are being squandered with little regard for future generations (Fuck you, future generations, you were late!), land so rich that anyone could have "prospered", land used for an imperialistic base to extract the rest of the world's resources to be turned into products in stores that in seven years will be landfill. Elements of truth there too.

Probably all perspectives contain some truth, but believe that critical thought has a place. Critical thought brought down slavery (or changed it's legal openness), forced the open free market proponents, thru unions, to back off the 14 hour workday, brought us weekends and child labor laws. (Who could deny the influential negativity of Upton Sinclair's scathing books?) Critical thought is pointing out the value of sustainability and how that RV may not fit, how pissing and shitting in the water, then charging money to clean it up enough to drink may be misguided, that cutting down ancient forests of intricate life forms composed of state of the art DNA for wood products to make temporary million dollar homes could be both suicide and lifespan stealing slavery, whether it's your American dream or not.

You can talk about all this while you take remedial action, you can marvel at all the cool stuff folks are coming up with to address these issues and still question your proud readiness to kill for your vision of America, Lurker, honestly you can. We can stress that these are universal human concerns, these positive attributes you see Americans having in special abundance. Have you traveled much outside the US? People are human and amazing everywhere, not just here, even in Muslim countries.

As to your approval of war...Sure maybe it took a civil war in this country to end slavery - long after most of the rest of the world gave it up out of common decency. The war that stopped Hitler? Pretty necessary but never doubt the power that warrior cultures on all sides placed on their little boys playing with guns and dreaming of future glory, toy guns kill 20 years later. The odds are extremely high you were provided as a child a G I doll, brave and heroic, saving the world, killing the bad guys. Ever watch any movies where justice is delivered thru swift good violence by the good guys, against those bad evil guys, so satisfying? Most Americans were raised with this good violence quickly solving everything entertainment ad nauseum. President Bush can explain to you how it works.

Do you really think if we spent half of our war billions building schools, hospitals and such in the Arab world and spent the other half doing the same in our country that there would consequently be more terrorists in the world hating our guts?

Maybe the world isn't black and white, divided into people who get it, like you and the rest who don't. Maybe there is enormous intelligence evident in the design of a cherry seed as the Chinese guy noted 5,000 years ago and some of those religious idiots you pity perceive something you don't.

Will let you have the last word on this and you will know that your stinging retort left me unable to respond.
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Post by Rolan Headon » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:07 am

G I Joe doll, I meant. Oops, Action Figure, don't want to imply American men ever played with dolls...[/i]
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Post by lurker » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:36 pm

Maybe 'sand in the vagina' is a pretty good theme, so many people seem to be really packing it in....
In my America you can RIDICULE a sacred cow if you want,


Funny, I ridiculed your sacred cow and you got all upset...aggravated even.
You can ridicule any person with a religious belief as weak-minded, as you have,


I have? Really? But I've got religious beliefs. Plenty of them. And not one requires me to kill--or even try to convert anyone who has a different one.
call for a first nuclear strike against the Muslim portion of humanity, as you have
I don't think I've called for one--I think I've said that I fear that's the course we're on. And I'd rather that they die over us dying--or even us submitting to Islam.

You don't? You'd rather die than than take action against something that is trying to destroy everything you believe in? You'd rather grovel and hide than fight against something that wants to destroy everything you believe in?

I don't think so.
Hopefully no one will 'harass' you with a respectful comment or upset your little delicate self, or think you could possibly be an arrogant fool.


I get harassed all the time. I'm thought of as an arrogant fool all the time. Are you? Or do you surround yourself with a soothing cushion of people who think and act just like you?

Opinion on the eplaya goes your way more than mine--hell, in most of the places I hang out in the default world opinion goes your way more than mind..

So I'm used to being the odd thing out.
But maybe not ignore a perspective of my friend, Jim, raised on a reservation, that points out that your ancestors also could be viewed as ruthless and bloody exploiters in a rich land with abundant resources which are being squandered with little regard for future generations
Oh, blarg. Get off the rez, admit you lost, and live a prosperous life. I got friends who've done just that.

There's nobody on this planet who wasn't under the foot of somebody else on this planet at some time in history. Get over yourselves.

And, hey, can we all agree that critical thought is important? Granted, you don't seem to like it much--at least when it's your thought getting criticised, but what the heck.
You can talk about all this while you take remedial action, you can marvel at all the cool stuff folks are coming up with to address these issues and still question your proud readiness to kill for your vision of America,
Not just my vision of America, Rolan--yours. Is Burning Man worthy of protection? The ideas that bring something like it about, are they worthy of protection? How about the idea that you can tell your government to take a flying leap? The idea that you can gather in the hundreds of thousands and scream at the Powerful that they better listen? Is that worth killing for? Do I have to list the science, the art, all the innovation? The idea that there are such things as human rights?

I think you'd fight to defend all that.
As to your approval of war...Sure maybe it took a civil war in this country to end slavery - long after most of the rest of the world gave it up out of common decency.
Europe ain't 'most of the rest of the world', Rolan, do you travel much? Europe is a blip. After Europe and the US made slavery illegal most of the rest of the world did not stop. Some even went so far as to send delegations to the crowns of Europe begging them to re-institute slavery.

And there are still places on this planet where humans can be bought and sold. Thankfully, they are the exception now, rather than the rule., but don't act like the US was the last to jump on the bandwagon.
The war that stopped Hitler? Pretty necessary but never doubt the power that warrior cultures on all sides placed on their little boys playing with guns and dreaming of future glory, toy guns kill 20 years later.


And this has to do with....what? The American kids who grew up to fight that war played with guns--but, y'know what? Our 'warrior culture' didn't have to take a break from their own conquest of the world to do so. Know why? Because, our gun-saturated nation was not out shooting the place up now, were they?
The odds are extremely high you were provided as a child a G I doll, brave and heroic, saving the world, killing the bad guys. Ever watch any movies where justice is delivered thru swift good violence by the good guys, against those bad evil guys, so satisfying? Most Americans were raised with this good violence quickly solving everything entertainment ad nauseum. President Bush can explain to you how it works.
I had GI Joes--the big ones, not those little crap ones. But I wasn't big on the military stuff. We used them to adventure, y'know? Had the space suit and these aliens my grandfather got me. That was cool.

The worlds not black and white, Rolan--I know you're thinking that's what you're telling me, but you've set up this alternate dichotomy--no less false and restricting.

Sometimes violence IS the solution--'The tree of Liberty must be occasionally watered with the blood of patriots" And sometimes it's not. And sometimes you need just a bit, and sometimes you need a lot.

But you can't buy your way out of it--
Do you really think if we spent half of our war billions building schools, hospitals and such in the Arab world and spent the other half doing the same in our country that there would consequently be more terrorists in the world hating our guts?
How much do we have to do? We spend so much money in the Arab world--they're some of the richest nations on the planet. Did you forget that? They've got the oil. And their governments get rich selling it. And their people? Well, there's some real poor people over there. And when we try to help them their governments get pissed. Or didn't you notice that?

The Islamic terrorists who really hate our guts hate us because we're not Islamic--not because they need hospitals. They say that openly.

The only way we can stop spending billions on war is if everyone else does it--at the exact same time and sticks with it.

Fat chance.

There are Revolutions in the offing.
Maybe there is enormous intelligence evident in the design of a cherry seed as the Chinese guy noted 5,000 years ago and some of those religious idiots you pity perceive something you don't.
You seem really stuck on me being anti-religious and I can't, for the life of me, remember saying anything that would leave that impression. But then, you also seem to think I want a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Islam, and I don't think I really said I wanted that either.

There is such beauty in this world that the human tendency to ignore it is sometimes painful, but then you look and see that people create new beauty all the time and the world becomes all the richer for it.

And the gods? The gods do as the gods do, and man can only watch as yet.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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Teo del Fuego
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Post by Teo del Fuego » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:19 pm

idle hands

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EB
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Post by EB » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:18 pm

Well spoken, Lurker. Well spoken.
Irony. You're soaking in it.

RevolutionaryForHire
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Post by RevolutionaryForHire » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:33 pm

lurker wrote:Sometimes violence IS the solution--'The tree of Liberty must be occasionally watered with the blood of patriots" And sometimes it's not. And sometimes you need just a bit, and sometimes you need a lot.
Since the beginning of time, violence has perpetuated one thing and one thing only:

More violence.

Violence as a solution? How's that coming for you? In what world do you see long-term success of solving conflict with violence? Because as far as I can tell, wars continue today like they have since people started solving conflict with violence.
We spend so much money in the Arab world--they're some of the richest nations on the planet. Did you forget that? They've got the oil. And their governments get rich selling it. And their people? Well, there's some real poor people over there. And when we try to help them their governments get pissed. Or didn't you notice that?

The Islamic terrorists who really hate our guts hate us because we're not Islamic--not because they need hospitals. They say that openly.

The only way we can stop spending billions on war is if everyone else does it--at the exact same time and sticks with it.

Fat chance.
Really? Because I see a totally different scenario. I see a rich and powerful ruling class who use their near-total control over the public world in those countries to keep the majority of their populous in an exploitable position. And then they throw all their might from controlling business, controlling media, controlling the law, controlling who goes to prison and who doesn't, and throw it at controlling public opinion.

And they say to the people, "You're pissed you're poor? You're pissed you're downtrodden and oppressed? Well it's those goddamn infidels who won't let us into the Holy Land's fault, so go blow them up! And it's those goddamn Sunni's or goddamn Shiite's fault and go blow them up."

There are no Sunnis. There are no Shiites. There are no Infidels. There are no Hutu. There are no Tutsi. There are the have's, and then there are the have-nots. Period.

And the game is to keep the have-not's convinced that they should be pissed at the Infidels, or Shiites, or Sunnis, or Hutu, or Tutsi running in enough circles to never come together and taking back power from the have's.

And that is the way it is all over the world.

To say that the Arab people want us to be Muslim and not build hospitables is no more an accurate statement than to say the American People believe the solution to the conflict in the Middle East is to “Invade their countries, kill their leaders, convert them to Christianity."

After all, that is exactly what prominent mainstream commentator and syndicated columnist Ann Coulter said on FOX News, the highest rated news program in the US. Is it not then the opinion of the American Public.
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the change.

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Post by Toolmaker » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:50 pm

Image

I think the violence comes after the chains of bondage around courage but before liberty.
This account has been closed as demanded by Wedeliver.

Rolan Headon
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Post by Rolan Headon » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:39 pm

Quote: "We do not have the luxury of picking over the muslim masses to seek out each one who is rooting, if not for us, then at least for us not to be annihilated. Their silence dooms them--and so should it be--because our inaction dooms us--AND them.

Better that 900,000,000 'moderate' muslims die than 100,000,000 million muslim fanatics succeed in drowning the world in Islam.

After we win, I will weep for the innocents that were killed in the slaying of this monster. After we win, I will work to help what fragment of Islam that remains reform itself as a viable, peaceful faith. After we win many things are possible.

If we lose, nothing is.

That's why I say these things. Because it's scary. Because we are getting to a point where nuclear holocaust is once again possible. Because we're talking ourselves softly into letting someone else use the big stick-- on us.

The governments of the world are waltzing into armageddon.

Right now, we can can stop this with fewer deaths. Right now we can stop this in such a way that both sides have a future. Right now there is still hope."
Lurker, Feb 23, 2006; Muslims at Burning Man?; Politics and Philosophy

(told you you'd have the last word on this. Let me know if you want quotes on your respect for religions.)

"Life is like a box of razor blades..."
Was born late and falling ever further behind, will soon be in the lead.

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Post by lurker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:27 am

Rolan, what is it you see there that's so evil?

Explain.

I think that I'm saying that we are on a path to nuclear war, that our actions now are leading us to a point where we'll use nukes.

And I'm saying that we can avert this--if we change our tactics.

I don't want it, I fear it.

Or is the 'evil' that I prefer that they 'all' die to save something better? Because I do think our system is better. Know why? Because our system allows their system to exist. You can be a Muslim in the West. You can be a Muslim and go to Burning Man in the West. You can't even want something like Burning Man in Islam.

It's a harsh and horrible thing to contemplate, but I don't think I'm alone in this--in fact, I'd wager that you prefer our system to theirs, that you'd defend our system if you had to.

You just don't want to think of the horrors that might entail.

I can't really blame you, but not wanting to think about them doesn't make them go away.

And yes, I'd like to see my religious points.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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