Black Rock City is the American Dream

User avatar
Teo del Fuego
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:31 am
Burning Since: 2005

Post by Teo del Fuego » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:57 am

RevolutionaryForHire wrote:Since the beginning of time, violence has perpetuated one thing and one thing only:More violence.
Not always. I think D-Day was incredibly violent, but I think it resulted in less violence than had it not occurred. One can argue that reasoned diplomacy in the 1920s could have, perhaps, averted the rise fo the Nazi state. Fine, but once it arose, there was little use in diplomacy and reasoning with Hitler.

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:10 am

Since the beginning of time, violence has perpetuated one thing and one thing only:

More violence.

Violence as a solution? How's that coming for you? In what world do you see long-term success of solving conflict with violence? Because as far as I can tell, wars continue today like they have since people started solving conflict with violence.
And when was this magic time when conflict was never solved with violence? Chimps make war, Rev.

But, violence has never solved anything? It ended slavery in the US. It stopped Hitler,Mussolini, and Hirohito. It helped end the Cold War. It got Islam out of Europe the first time it invaded. And that's just the biggies--I'm not even going to go into all the ancilliary innovation that we take for granted now that was originally intended for war.

We will stop solving conflict with violence when everybody does. At the same time. It can't happen any other way. This requires eliminating the impetus for war--want.

And that will only happen when every individual can meet all their own needs and wants without having to rely on any other individual.
Really? Because I see a totally different scenario. I see a rich and powerful ruling class who use their near-total control over the public world in those countries to keep the majority of their populous in an exploitable position. And then they throw all their might from controlling business, controlling media, controlling the law, controlling who goes to prison and who doesn't, and throw it at controlling public opinion.
This is exactly the same scenario I see, Rev. Including pointing their dissatisfied 'have-nots' at us.

But you know what? A whole lot of the terrorists who should be 'have nots' turn out, upon closer inspection to be 'haves'. Bin Laden is rich. Doctors planned an attack that was foiled in London.

So the classist meme doesn't quite apply. It's that black/white thing you all decry when others do it, Rev. Try some nuance.

Islam tried to take over the Dar al-Harb long before there was an America or oil--and they succeeded for a while. Is it foolish to say that they want to take it over again? Even when they're saying it? There's more at play than classism here.

But it's still want--you've got that right.
To say that the Arab people want us to be Muslim and not build hospitables is no more an accurate statement than to say the American People believe the solution to the conflict in the Middle East is to “Invade their countries, kill their leaders, convert them to Christianity."

After all, that is exactly what prominent mainstream commentator and syndicated columnist Ann Coulter said on FOX News, the highest rated news program in the US. Is it not then the opinion of the American Public.
Actually, she wrote it in a column--she only repeated it on FOX--and I think it was 'Hannity and Colmes', which is not a news program, it's an opinion show. Have you read the column, or do you just quote that line?

And the people who believe that the solution to the problems in the Middle East revolve around adherence to any religions' dogma are idiots. 5,000 years ago there were problems in the Middle East. 2,000 years ago there were problems in the Middle East. Clearly, the problems predate the faiths that tear the Middle East apart today.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

Rolan Headon
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:30 pm
Location: Sonoma, CA

Post by Rolan Headon » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:24 am

You know what, you win. Two fools arguing we are, to any bystander. You can explain how we're going to change our course, "win" by killing only 900,000,000 million so we can save the rest of them to become real humans, with kindness and reason i suppose or our war billions, you are just an unstoppable reasoning force. Read your posts on the evil and worthlessness of any and all monothesiastic religions. I apologize for ever addressing you personally...don't burn down my camp, ok? This is America, post freely, I won't clog your mind with my muddled responses. Ever again.
Was born late and falling ever further behind, will soon be in the lead.

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:42 am

Jeez. Didn't realize it was getting to you so bad.
You can explain how we're going to change our course, "win" by killing only 900,000,000 million so we can save the rest of them to become real humans, with kindness and reason i suppose or our war billions, you are just an unstoppable reasoning force.
Again, I never said I wanted 900,000,000 dead. I said that is preferable to allowing 100,000,000 to enslave 5,000,000,000. Is that not true?

And I said that unless we change our course, I can see that happening.

And I don't want it to.

We need to fight this the way we fought WW2. People will die. I might die. But in the end this ideology will be reduced to the point where it can never aspire to take over the world again.
Read your posts on the evil and worthlessness of any and all monothesiastic religions.


Ah. Well yes, I am fervently against the various faiths that have sprung up to worship the One God. But I am not against religion. I am against the religions whose blind fanaticism in the pursuit of the favor of their diety have ravaged our world. The druids didn't slaughter people to bring them the 'Good News'.
I apologize for ever addressing you personally...don't burn down my camp, ok? This is America, post freely, I won't clog your mind with my muddled responses. Ever again.
I tell my children, 'if you can't defend your point of view, you haven't got a point of view.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

User avatar
Teo del Fuego
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:31 am
Burning Since: 2005

Post by Teo del Fuego » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:45 am

Lurker, for what its worth, I agree with a lot of what you say here and over on the old thread. Burying our heads in the sands of political correctness is such a typically Western thing to do, but it is fraught with dangers. Failure to see radical Islam, and the complicity of the idle moderates, for the true danger it is only gives fertile ground for future destruction.

I do not think radical Islam can be fought WWII style unless you are willing to destroy entire populations. This cannot be right and cannot be justified though it could be done presently. Instead, radicalization can be fought only by removing from the soil in which it grows the nutrients it needs: poverty, frustration, humiliation, political manipulation, goatherd religious interpretations. But ultimately, I am willing to condede that Milddle Eastern culture has always had at its core tribal violence which may be too entrenched to ever be overcome.

I hope and pray America can elect a leader a who will appoint cabinent members who are intelligent and historically aware and who will act in a wiser manner than America has pursued for the past 50 years. I wish we had a president who could kick off another "space Race" but this time the goal would be to make America totally independent of oil, particularly foreign oil.

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:04 pm

I do not think radical Islam can be fought WWII style unless you are willing to destroy entire populations. This cannot be right and cannot be justified though it could be done presently.
I don't think you'd have to kill entire populations. I think you'd have to realize that you're surrounded by enemies. Even our 'allies' over there want the same horrific caliphate--only they want themselves in charge.
Instead, radicalization can be fought only by removing from the soil in which it grows the nutrients it needs: poverty, frustration, humiliation, political manipulation, goatherd religious interpretations.
But you know what has to be done to choke off those nutrients? Occupation. Just like we're still doing in Germany. Are we safe yet? If we leave will they fire up the camps again? Probably not, but we've been there for more than fifty years.

No one wants to make that kind of commitment--not because they don't see the danger, but because such a thing would be politically unpopular.

And so we do what we're doing. And it serves no purpose but to anger and radicalize.

And eventually, someone's going to be able to do something big and stupid. And in a panic the West will slap down Islam permanently.

I don't want that, but I look at our current crop of wannabe presidents and I can't see one of them that has the brains to do what's right.

And the cabinets they appoint will be just as addled as they are.
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

RevolutionaryForHire
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Mendocino, CA

Post by RevolutionaryForHire » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:49 pm

lurker wrote:Chimps make war, Rev.
And what does that make you?

Oh come, I had to. You set yourself up, admit it.
lurker wrote:But, violence has never solved anything? It ended slavery in the US. It stopped Hitler,Mussolini, and Hirohito. It helped end the Cold War. It got Islam out of Europe the first time it invaded.
Here is my problem with this position. You use the word "solved" as if it has solved anything. But all I see is more war. Yes, physically disarming a group of people physically prevents them from using those exact weapons. Yet we still have war today, no?

What is the clinical definition of instanity? Repeated actions expecting different results. You've been diagnosed.

Also, I don't see my role in the world as running around deciding who should be disarmed.
lurker wrote:We will stop solving conflict with violence when everybody does. At the same time. It can't happen any other way. This requires eliminating the impetus for war--want.
Exactly, and let that peace start with us. We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the Change.

It isn't going to happen any other way.
lurker wrote:And that will only happen when every individual can meet all their own needs and wants without having to rely on any other individual.
And as long as 5% of the world's population is consuming 25 % of the world's resources, that is not possible.
lurker wrote:What's wrong with a bit of air conditioning? AND a romp in a dust storm? One does not preclude the other....
And that is what is wrong with a bit of airconditioning by a whole bunch of people. By your own reasoning, we can not have World Peace as long as we hoard these resources.

lurker wrote:Bin Laden is rich. Doctors planned an attack that was foiled in London.
Bin Ladin and the doctors are the rich people exploiting the masses

lurker wrote:Actually, she wrote it in a column--she only repeated it on FOX--and I think it was 'Hannity and Colmes', which is not a news program, it's an opinion show. Have you read the column, or do you just quote that line?
Yeah, I read the column. She justifies the bombing of Afghani civilians. Did you have a point, or do you just like to challenge people?

I think it is the latter, and like Rolan, I feel I've illustrated my point, and seemingly unlike others around here, my existence is not dedicated to getting everyone to think uniformily.
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the change.

lurker
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Post by lurker » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:06 am

And what does that make you?
Related.
Here is my problem with this position. You use the word "solved" as if it has solved anything. But all I see is more war. Yes, physically disarming a group of people physically prevents them from using those exact weapons. Yet we still have war today, no?
And this highlights an interesting problem. You use the term 'war' as if it is the same war over and over, but it's not.

A situation arises among nations, diplomacy is usually the first step--as it was leading up to WW2. Most of the time this solves the problem. Talk.

But sometimes the talks break down, or agreements are ignored. At this point more punitive measures are taken--some form of sanction. And this also ends a lot of conflicts.

But sometimes the punitive measures don't work, or the conflict is one that one side does not wish to 'resolve' short of having it all their way.

And there is violence.

But the source of the violence, and the problem it arises over is not always the same--it is not 'war' that is the problem.

It is 'how do we resolve conflicts between nations and/or peoples when diplomacy has failed?'

War isn't an end, it is a means to an end.

It has ended the threat of Nazism.
It has ended legal slavery(in most of the world)
It has ended the dominion of various tyrants.

And so much more.

War can't end war. So it doesn't fit that clinical definition of insanity. Even eliminating want probably can't, on it's own, eliminate war. War is simply what happens when the conflict has gone past where talking can solve it.

Genetically speaking, we're geared towards violent action at that point(as our cousin, the chimp, shows us).

I don't know that we should try to get rid of it. Perhaps channeling it into a less widely destructive mode--champion combat after the mode of the Celts perhaps.
Exactly, and let that peace start with us. We are the ones we've been waiting for. Be the Change.

It isn't going to happen any other way.
All at once. We(particularly we in the US) can't start disarming while so many people want our hides. It has to be done voluntarily, by everyone at the same time. Otherwise there will be those who take advantage of the disarmed.

And even then, you can't put the djinn back in the bottle. We will still know how to arm ourselves--and we probably will. Humans enjoy big explosions. How was Crude Awakening?

But eliminating want will change war from what it is into something criminal.
And as long as 5% of the world's population is consuming 25 % of the world's resources, that is not possible.
Well, no. If that 5% putting that use to benefit more than themselves it becomes a whole different story. How much food does that 5% produce over what it uses? How much materiel does it produce over what it uses?

And then there's the possibility that they're using some of that 25% to learn how to expand productivity and usefulness of resources overall.

I expect we'll eliminate want within my lifetime. And it will be innovation on behalf of people funded by that 5% that does it.
And that is what is wrong with a bit of airconditioning by a whole bunch of people. By your own reasoning, we can not have World Peace as long as we hoard these resources.
Hoard? Who said anything about hoarding? Use them to make things better overall.
Bin Ladin and the doctors are the rich people exploiting the masses
The doctors were going to explode themselves. And Bin Laden's on the frontlines he created. I hate to say it, but they're not exploiting--they're leading. The sheikhs are expoiting--but they want the same things as the people leading--and the people following. That's what makes it so dangerous.
Yeah, I read the column.
Good. I've run across a lot who use the quote without bothering to read the source. Ann Coulter is an incredible source for hyperbole and questionable quotes, but what did the column mean? I understood the part you quoted even if I don't quite agree about the 'niceness' of any of the faiths of the One God. She was pointing out that we don't get into this sort of conflict with nations that resemble the US. But you knpw what? She has a damned weird way of saying it.
I think it is the latter,
I don't do this simply to challenge. I do it to offer an alternate idea, to put my ideas into the thoughtstream with others, and to glean insight from the people I respond to.
and like Rolan, I feel I've illustrated my point, and seemingly unlike others around here, my existence is not dedicated to getting everyone to think uniformily.
And here I take exception. Your opinion is more uniformly accepted here than mine. And your initial statement took umbrage at, and relished the joy of 'correcting', the opinions of people who did not think like you.

Far from not wanting people to think uniformly, you appeared to enjoy the idea of going out of your way to berate people who were not bothering you for the sole purpose of making sure they understood that you thought their actions and opinions were wrong.

Can't you see that?

You seem to enjoy the idea of limiting what I can do in pursuit of your dream--it is, in a nutshell, the same problem I have with Islam. Should Islam get what it wants, then I don't get what I want. And that's not right.

Why not AC AND a romp in the dust? Why must one preclude the other?

You have your opinion, and I'll have mine. And if everybody does this we can, in our interactions glean new ideas, learn new things, what works and what doesn't.

Isn't that better than snarling at your hypothetical RVers and trying to force your opinion on them?
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

User avatar
Teo del Fuego
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:31 am
Burning Since: 2005

Post by Teo del Fuego » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:41 pm

Want to end war or at least make it much more uinlikely? Then, reduce present population levels, preferably through voluntary birth control.

User avatar
Gravity Mike
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: San Jose CA

Post by Gravity Mike » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:06 pm

Teo del Fuego wrote:Want to end war or at least make it much more uinlikely? Then, reduce present population levels, preferably through voluntary birth control.
Damn straight! That would solve a lot of the world's problems.

Anyhow, this years theme never really rubbed me the wrong way (but I was surprised) - and not because I'm a flag-waving nationalist. Instead, to me, BM itself *IS* americanna!! It represents the best of america. And where did BM happen? America. It actually represents alot of the values that are quite american - individualism, self-reliance, free expression, radical freedom,... I say, don't let the flag-waving nationalists (the ones who say if you're not with them, you're against them) take possession of the country. In fact, they don't get it - WE are the true americans!!

I've actually envisioned (years ago) making an american flag with the BM logo on the blue field, much like the hippy american flag with the peace symbol. This is the year to make it happen.

Gravity Mike

User avatar
Teo del Fuego
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:31 am
Burning Since: 2005

Post by Teo del Fuego » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:31 am

I initially loathed this years Theme, but now I don't . Amidst the knee-jerk kvetching that goes on here (like complaining that the ink in the newsletter smelled bad or that that postcard was merely Photoshopped) there were some trenchant insights and discussions, and BMorg did amplify and expand on the theme a bit more.

Yeah, the comment above raises a good point. Folks who go to Burning Man really represent the old America--not the bullshit corporate wonk day tradin' conformists who run the show now, but the America that was made up of people from all different countries and cultures, who were searching for something different, who pulled themselves up by the bootstraps to invent something new, who worked hard and gave of themselves instead of sitting back and demanding. No, America doesnt have a monopoly on hard work, invention and innovation, but by golly, that sure is one of our strong suits, isn't it?

As a country we've really lost the plot the past generation or so, but people are still busting their butts and breaking the law to get here.

But America is, in essence, a Whitman Sampler of all the other nations and cultures. To celebrate America is to celebrate the Europeans, the Africans, the Asians, and the folks from Australia and latin America who came here to make this country what it is.

If this year's theme keeps a few hundred jealous America-bashers from coming, good.

User avatar
wedeliver
Posts: 1871
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:10 am
Burning Since: 1998
Location: Tionesta, CA
Contact:

Post by wedeliver » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:07 am

Teo del Fuego wrote:I initially loathed this years Theme, but now I don't . ...........

For me it took a DREAM.. now I have visions of what a great year this will be.

Look at last year.. the mother fuckers gave us a lunar eclipse and... and.... and a pre burn special... really a trippy ride.. I was out in open playa as it all came together and God himself could not have choreographed a better start to the festival. There was so much to see at the very beginning, that monday seemed like thursday.


This year Larry has a Black Moon Rising on burn nite, and I'm dreamin' about the feelings to be felt...... the amazing things to be seen.... The absolutly grooviest people on the planet.....
I'm a topless shirtcocking yahoo hippie

www.eaglesnestrvpark.com

User avatar
theCryptofishist
Posts: 40313
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
Burning Since: 2017
Location: In Exile

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:52 pm

Remember this year's theme is pizza!
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

User avatar
wedeliver
Posts: 1871
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:10 am
Burning Since: 1998
Location: Tionesta, CA
Contact:

Post by wedeliver » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:40 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Remember this year's theme is pizza!
I thought this year's pizza was a theme!

I thought this year's pizza was a dream!
I'm a topless shirtcocking yahoo hippie

www.eaglesnestrvpark.com

User avatar
Ugly Dougly
Posts: 17499
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Burning Since: 1996
Location: เชียงใหม่

Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Do Italians dream of American pizza?

User avatar
theCryptofishist
Posts: 40313
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:28 am
Burning Since: 2017
Location: In Exile

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:13 pm

It's a damn site different from the original, that's for sure. Especially the Thai Chicken Pizza.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

User avatar
lonestoner916
Posts: 891
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:41 pm
Location: Gerlach, Nevada
Contact:

Post by lonestoner916 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:55 am

Burning Man is the founding place for a new revolution, and it's thanks to people like you! (And me of course!)

Goddamnit that was beautiful man!
[img]http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv92/Motha420Herb/stoner.gif[/img]
http://lonestonersblog.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Kenny Z
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:07 pm
Burning Since: 2002
Camp Name: United Nations
Location: Reno
Contact:

Re: Black Rock City is the American Dream

Post by Kenny Z » Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:56 pm

[quote="RevolutionaryForHire"]

The American Dream is being outraged that Burning Man would ever choose a theme so (insert adjective) and holding protests on the playa to demostrate the mass dissatisfaction.

[/quote]

Seriously? Maybe it would be more effective if they demonstrated at home. I swear, some people just feel more alive when they are complaining about stuff. Maybe it's just me but the theme has absolutely no bearing on whether I go or not. Even if the theme was "Mexican Dream", I think I could manage to pull myself together, sheeeesh! It's just a theme, not a secret government plat for mass genocide.

User avatar
ZaphodBurner
Posts: 1339
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:05 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: The Green Hour 2012 - 9:00 & D
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Black Rock City is the American Dream

Post by ZaphodBurner » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:22 pm

Kenny Z wrote: Even if the theme was "Mexican Dream", I think I could manage to pull myself together, sheeeesh! It's just a theme, not a secret government plat for mass genocide.
Let's see... a bunch of mostly-educated, upwardly-mobile, well-fed mostly white people gathered around a giant neon tower in a sprawling city with street names like Impala, the whole of which is encircled by a giant fence.

If it the theme was "Mexican Dream", appropriate symbols would be American flags and big-ass iconic American cars.

Callin' it as I see it.

-c
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

Post Reply

Return to “2008 Theme”