Attn: Folks with art cars built from golf carts

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:31 am

Very interesting!

If they don't see it, I would post the question on the contraption thread.
Some of the kinetic stuff makes your head explode just to look at it.
They might come up with a dozen different approaches.
LeChat is no slouch either.
Be sure to visit the bike camps this year.
You can look right at some of their drivetrains and they still have to explain them to you.

I was looking at some trike designs and looking out the camper, the desert looked familiar.
Turns out to be another one of those bike guys on the playa.
http://www.highmileagetrikes.blogspot.com/

A hydrostatic bike, details available
just too cool
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/ ... otorcycle/

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:39 am

At the Kenetic Sculpture races last year there was a peddeled electic generator to motor racer.. It was built as an "inch worm" with six people powering it.. It was almot turned down for the race.. The schoolis still out on allowing flywheel assist racers.. That is flywheel to axel type..

I have been playing with flywheel electric for awhile.. Found a good flywheel at Good Will.. It's off a stationary bike..

This year is the first in 5 yr to have a regestered ride.. But I just discovered that it will be registered as a disability MV..

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:00 pm

Great stuff Gyre. That's some really cool vehicles. As suspected, they have all avoided my issue by always making the drive wheel stationary.

unjonharley wrote:At the Kenetic Sculpture races last year there was a peddeled electic generator to motor racer.. It was built as an "inch worm" with six people powering it.. It was almot turned down for the race.. The schoolis still out on allowing flywheel assist racers.. That is flywheel to axel type..

I have been playing with flywheel electric for awhile.. Found a good flywheel at Good Will.. It's off a stationary bike..

Hmm... so it IS possible! I assume the "inch worm" was the visual design and not some odd sort of drivetrain.

Yeah, flywheel is a slippery slope. Once you start allowing power storage devices, you have to allow ALL of them, batteries included.

Ideally I want to make it so I can power it myself if need be.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:55 pm

As long as the power is coming from the humans, I don't see a flywheel as an issue.
Unless you come up with a really exotic high speed flywheel, like they are using on buses, I don't think anyone will give it a thought.

I have seen bikes on the playa with a driven front wheel which was also steering.
I think they altered the plane of the chain and then converted it back to drive the wheel.
I can't remember all the details though.
Don't underestimate the craziness of those guys.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:43 pm

I do see an issue. Because the flywheel is a power storage device. It's a battery. If I pedal to charge up batteries and then drive the MV via a power storage system, I'd bet the the DMV would not see it as "human powered" anymore (nor the BLM).

There's that slippery slope again.

I'd define a "Human powered" MV as one that is human powered in a direct manner. Not storage of power allowed.
Otherwise I pedal charge a battery and then cruise around in a bloody golf cart with no DMV licence...

I think we can all agree that would be a bad thing.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:55 pm

Have you ever tried this?
I think if you can pedal charge a battery enough to drive around, we should all stand around and cheer as you go by.

Try this and let us know how well it works.

You might pull it off for a very efficient bike, but why?

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:13 pm

gyre wrote:Have you ever tried this?
I think if you can pedal charge a battery enough to drive around, we should all stand around and cheer as you go by.

Try this and let us know how well it works.

You might pull it off for a very efficient bike, but why?

*chuckle* Well I didn't say it would be easy...

The point I was trying to make is that by your definition, anyone can be driving an unlicensed golf cart as long as the power storage system is storing human made power.

I don't think that's going to fly.

Now if they let me do that, it'd be awesome to charge batteries while driving and then run the motor off the batteries. It would solve a lot of issues with the power and would smooth out the power a lot.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:33 pm

If you can charge a golf cart by yourself, I will personally come over and lift your unconscious body into the golf cart and take you for a ride.
Maybe the breeze will revive you?
Maybe we'll go to the med tent?

You'll be cheered all the way though.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:52 pm

gyre wrote:If you can charge a golf cart by yourself, I will personally come over and lift your unconscious body into the golf cart and take you for a ride.
Maybe the breeze will revive you?
Maybe we'll go to the med tent?

You'll be cheered all the way though.

Hmmm... that hard eh? Is this why that "direct drive" human powered vehicle unjonharley was talking about had 6 people?

My theory is I can hand push my MV pretty easily (it rolls surprisingly smoothly for a half ton beast

). Knowing that, I expect that I could pedal it like a bike. And based on that, I think the direct drive electric system would work as well.

Yeah I know. A lot of theory...

heh

Badger

Rat Bastard · Post by **Rat Bastard** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:02 pm

A flywheel is a kinetic device. It's not like a battery. The flywheel would be more like a coast mechanism. From a dead stop with it not spinning, it would do nothing. Once pedal power starts it spining the flywheel would act as a speed regulator so if you stop pedaling for an instant, your kinetic energy providing voltage would be more constant. A flywheel would be no different then pedaling a bike then stopping pedaling and coasting for a while. It's the inertia of the bike wheels and the forward force that keeps you going.

Another idea for getting "chain" to your drive wheel is to use a couple differentials. Pedal crank (vertical alignment) connects to a differential's vertical sprocket, transfers energy to the differential's horizontal sprocket. That horizontal sprocket (D1) is connected to the horizontal sprocket of the differential (D2) mounted directly above the drive wheel pivot point. Energy is then transfered to the vertical sprocket of D2 then chain down to your drivewheel assembly.

Lots of chainlube! There would be some loss of power with all the gears but it would allow you to turn the wheel left and right.

I've done some asking on the topic and if it's 100% human powered, it doesn't need to go through the DMV. Once you add a battery or solar cells to the drive train, it would need to go through the DMV. I would imagine that there is going to be a point when you don't want to pedal, a chain breaks, or your crank generator goes kaput, you would be inclined to use a battery as a backup to get you back to camp to fix stuff. With a DMV license, you would be ok in doing so.

I really like your idea, Badger, and I think you have a come up with a real creative use for one of those 4x8 utility trailers.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:08 pm

Last year I went a alternative power fest in Kirkland Wa.

The was a new bike with the front hub a generator.. You would ride for awhile then cruise on the power you built up.. Seem more of a toy to me..

The Inch Worm art sculpture was a kinetic racer.. The front would go forward then the back would move up.. It would hump up just like an inch worm in the middle..

Did any of you go by the Kinetics theme camp last year? It will be there again in 08..

Badger, you could take off from my project.. It is first a peddle powered quadracycle.. The peddle chain go's to a hub then chain to the drive axel..

Second it is a electric "24v" drive.. The motor chain drive to a hub then chains to the drive axel..

When one power system is engaged the the other systems hub is in free wheel..

Or one system can assist the other..

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:13 pm

How far can you push it?

Every generator has a loss in power through it.
Every motor does too.
This is usually considered a transmission of last resort.
I think they are appropriate for part time front drive on a four wheel drive car.
Many trains use them, but efficiency is debated there.
Add a battery and there is more loss of power charging it.
Golf carts are inefficient for a light load.
They are designed for a full load of people and stuff.
Most are geared very low.

In many parts of the world, they use pedal power for electricity.
Usually it's for a small tv and light.
I heard of people in the us using this for emergencies.
And I recall someone using one for exercise here.
He had to pedal to watch tv.
But that is 50-150 watts.
Bike motors run 250 to 1000 watts.

I think a chain or pulley drive would be a lot more efficient, especially if you are running a light vehicle.
Shaft drive is possible.
You could do the electric with enough people, but if you can go a different way. you should consider it.
Talk to LeChat about getting the contraption home after everyone else took off and there were two people running it.
Even using a flywheel, it is still power.
It will make you appreciate an engine.

Here's a flywheel type that holds a little more power than normal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage
http://www.vyconenergy.com/
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/Ene ... wheels.htm

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:43 pm

Capjbadger, since you have the motor mounted, you may want to try it out anyway.
I hope you will check it thoroughly before you come out though.
Make sure you're happy with it.

No one said this stuff has to make sense.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:21 am

Rat bastard wrote:Another idea for getting "chain" to your drive wheel is to use a couple differentials. Pedal crank (vertical alignment) connects to a differential's vertical sprocket, transfers energy to the differential's horizontal sprocket. That horizontal sprocket (D1) is connected to the horizontal sprocket of the differential (D2) mounted directly above the drive wheel pivot point. Energy is then transfered to the vertical sprocket of D2 then chain down to your drivewheel assembly.

Maybe another pic will highlight the problem:

I would have to hollow out the rudder shaft to be able to use a driveshaft type setup. The ship was built to steer exactly like a real ship of the period did. The rudder shaft goes through the back of the ship and sticks up out the top where the ropes from the wheel attach to the tiller.

Rat Bastard wrote:I've done some asking on the topic and if it's 100% human powered, it doesn't need to go through the DMV. Once you add a battery or solar cells to the drive train, it would need to go through the DMV.

Thank you for asking around. No battery eh? Ok, that makes sense. So basiclly it can only move when someone is actively pedaling. *nods*
If a breakdown occurs, it's very easy to push, and if worse came to worse, I can tow it.

Rat Bastard wrote:I really like your idea, Badger, and I think you have a come up with a real creative use for one of those 4x8 utility trailers.

Good eye.

Thank you! I'm pretty happpy with it. It doubles as my home. The inside has 6ft clearance. The original idea had me building this from complete scratch, but then once I thought about the fact that I would need a trailer to get it there, I figured I'd just build in ON the trailer. It's actually built to come apart so I could get it out of the back yard at the old place. So I bought a foldable trailer kit, put that together, then built the rest.

unjonharley wrote:Did any of you go by the Kinetics theme camp last year? It will be there again in 08..

I did hunt you guys down last year. Very cool. I really need to sit down and learn to use my welder.

The drive is geared very low. 30:1 as I recall. it's geared so that the top speed maxes out at 6mph. It's got a jack axle in there to do this.

This will be the 3rd year it's go to the playa. First year the drive chain kept slipping off and had a gas engine. Last year I converted it to solar electric and fixed the chain issues. Sadly I did not test it and found that the throttle I had was wrong. I was able to rig it to do a little test run. It has a ton of power to move the ship. The little 2.5hp gas engine moved it quite well too (before the chain problems). So up until now, the poor thing has not made it over to the DMV to get a license yet.

Third time's a charm, right?

Gyre wrote:Here's a flywheel type that holds a little more power than normal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage
http://www.vyconenergy.com/
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/Ene ... wheels.htm

See RB? They're batteries. Whether the energy storage is mechanical or chemical, it's all the same.

Hmm... I think the current plan of attack will be to finish fixing the current drive system (reinforce, add another chain tensioner, get teh right throttle), and spiff it up some more (I want a bow on the damn thing.

) and then I'll worry about making this thing human powered for this year.
The air/fire cannon will have to wait till next year.

The really scary thing is I already have the next MV planned out. This shit is addictive.

lol

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:51 am

Would you explain how you do the quotey thing with multiple quotes in one post?
I've asked before but still have no idea.
I can find no info in the forum faqs.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:58 am

gyre wrote:Would you explain how you do the quotey thing with multiple quotes in one post?
I've asked before but still have no idea.
I can find no info in the forum faqs.

Pretty easy. Just highlight the text you want ot be a quote, then hit the Quote button.

If you want it to say the name of the person, just edit the quote tag to be quote="nameofperson"

You can do this as many times in a post as you like.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:09 am

So you're editing each name in?
Wouldn't it be easier to post separately for each quote and have it go in automatically?
I thought there must be a better way.

So you have to cut and paste all but the first quote too?

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:12 am

Yes, I'm doing a small edit. Otherwise I would of had to make 3 posts.

Yes, all but the first quote is done manually. There is no easier way.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:25 am

Thanks.
I thought I was missing something.

Are you watching Le Mans?
Diesel v diesel.
The view out the cockpit ( and the tv) just spun 360!
That'll keep you awake.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:31 am

No problem.

Must be on a channel I don't get. I don't see it.

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:38 am

Speed channel.
Mostly they suck now, all nascar.
They dropped all the world rally stuff.
FIA and nascar.

This might tide you over.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8907086777

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:58 am

Ahh... well well I DO have that channel.

Badger

Rat Bastard · Post by **Rat Bastard** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:55 pm

capjbadger wrote:
Gyre wrote:Here's a flywheel type that holds a little more power than normal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage
http://www.vyconenergy.com/
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/Ene ... wheels.htm
See RB? They're batteries. Whether the energy storage is mechanical or chemical, it's all the same.

Those are flywheels incorperated into generators. A fly wheel stores mechanical energy as mechanical energy. Mechanical energy created from human power is still human energy. If it was converted to say a fuel or battery or some other storage unit that could move the MV from a dead stop, it would be different. A flywheel's energy storage capacity is so low you could compare it to coasting on a bicycle. It's kinetics. When the kinetic racers stop peddling, does their contraption stop immediately? Don't those big wheels want to keep turning? It's not much different then if you wrapped a rope around an axle, ran it up to a pully, put a weight on the other end and dropped it. It's the effect of the human energy lifting the weight to a high point and releasing that energy through the rope and down to the axle. The energy is "stored" until the rope is released and the weight starts to fall. As the pully/axle example has a finite amount of stored force/energy, so would a flywheel. I don't think the DMV would consider it "powered". It's kinetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel

Now, one of those generators with the flywheel in it may work for you. What did they cost? Five grand or something? Ah, pennies.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:39 pm

Even a flywheel like the more high speed versions only stores what it is fed.
They can be hooked to anything although some require a magnetic connection due to the sealed chamber.
Some fuel cells are only storage devices too.
An electric battery could be used the same way, to float power from the human drive, but I think it would make people nervous to allow it.

A powerful and lightweight flywheel is intriguing for a vehicle.
I'd rather carry one than a lot of lead batteries.

Le Chat has posted specs on his flywheel and I'm sure it never gets close to 50,000 rpm.
Very nice work.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:40 pm

Rat Bastard wrote:Those are flywheels incorperated into generators. A fly wheel stores mechanical energy as mechanical energy. Mechanical energy created from human power is still human energy. If it was converted to say a fuel or battery or some other storage unit that could move the MV from a dead stop, it would be different. A flywheel's energy storage capacity is so low you could compare it to coasting on a bicycle. It's kinetics. When the kinetic racers stop peddling, does their contraption stop immediately? Don't those big wheels want to keep turning? It's not much different then if you wrapped a rope around an axle, ran it up to a pully, put a weight on the other end and dropped it. It's the effect of the human energy lifting the weight to a high point and releasing that energy through the rope and down to the axle. The energy is "stored" until the rope is released and the weight starts to fall. As the pully/axle example has a finite amount of stored force/energy, so would a flywheel. I don't think the DMV would consider it "powered". It's kinetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel

Now, one of those generators with the flywheel in it may work for you. What did they cost? Five grand or something? Ah, pennies.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here RB.

Energy is energy no matter the form (heat, chemical, kinetic, electrical, etc.) and storage is storage. A chemical battery is also finite.
I'd love to debate this in person with you.

$5k? Bah! Peanuts!

More fun to build my own.

Gyre wrote:Even a flywheel like the more high speed versions only stores what it is fed.
They can be hooked to anything although some require a magnetic connection due to the sealed chamber.
Some fuel cells are only storage devices too.
An electric battery could be used the same way, to float power from the human drive, but I think it would make people nervous to allow it.

A powerful and lightweight flywheel is intriguing for a vehicle.
I'd rather carry one than a lot of lead batteries.

Le Chat has posted specs on his flywheel and I'm sure it never gets close to 50,000 rpm.
Very nice work.

Yeah, I don't think they will be put in a chemical battery in it to smooth out the power. Hmmm.. unless... the battery isn't big enough to power the MV. I think as long as I keep things in the range of "Can't move unless pedaled" I should be good.

More and more I'm liking this flywheel idea. My batteries currently weigh 400lb. I'd love to be able to remove a chunk of that.

That's right. How did that flywheel work out?

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:53 pm

I think it just smoothed out the mechanicals and gave a little coasting ability.
It's all on his threads.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=19038

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:17 am

Has someone suggested a direct friction drive to the other wheels, Capjbadger?

You could use capacitors as a way to smooth the electrical flow.
Batcaps look interesting.
They claim it is an extrememly low resistance battery which acts as a capacitor.
Last time I asked they wouldn't even say how it worked.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:25 pm

No one suggested it, but it was an idea while I was doing the original sketches. Problem is the front wheel is just a caster wheel, and to access the trailer's wheel would be quite difficult.
I'd either have to run some long chains down the sides, or eat up what little interior space I have by building a trasmission in there and coming out a wall.

Hmm.. Caps... That could work, but that's not really different from a battery.

Unless I kept them small... hmmm..
Aren't they still really expensive?

Badger

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:35 pm

The ones that will store for any time at all can be.
You may find them surplus or used though.
Caps are unable to generate any power on their own.
You might be able to make one yourself.
It's been done before.

You're unlikely to store enough power to create an issue.
Make sure you take precautions against shock.
Most will run down over a short time, when not in use.
It might be enough to smooth out the pedaling.

There is more than one type too.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:58 pm

There is a very cool palce called HSC Electronics around here that might have what I need as far as caps. I'll look into that.

Badger