Fireproof (not flame retardent) Fabrics

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Fireproof (not flame retardent) Fabrics

Post by ninavizz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 am

Yes I'm aware of Nomex, Kevlar, etc., but am looking for lighter fabrics more akin to those used in costume-making, that are fireproof. Feathers, maribou, silk-like fabrics, and thule are especially sought.

Yes I hate blinky-lights and detest noisy ravers; just workin' on my project, and hope to come up with something nifty and expressive that doesn't also piss people off.

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Re: Fireproof (not flame retardent) Fabrics

Post by oFZo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:02 am

ninavizz wrote:Yes I hate blinky-lights and detest noisy ravers;

Then I sincerely wonder why you'd want to be on the playa.
(not being snarky or whatever, just wondering.)
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Post by ninavizz » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:49 am

BM is an event that was created for artists to freely do in a non-urbanized area, what municipal restrictions typically prohibit; most notably, fire-art and large-scale mechanical art.

This has been an ongoing discussion, particularly in the SF Bay Area, for years... so I don't want to digress my thread here- but I'll clarify that I did want to include the sidenote so that if serious fire artists did see my post they wouldn't get disgusted and move-on without responding, on the assumption I'm a raver looking to idiotically and non-consensually "engage" with an artist's fire-piece.

I love to have fun- we all do- and there's a time and place for beats and sweets... it's just not at BM. Really: you can rave in any abandoned warehouse, and preferably would rave without the harsh living conditions... but you cannot build a massive community of large-scale art from all over the world, and congregate with thousands of other like-mined artists, anywhere else.

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:01 am

oh god, here we go again....fuck the art....it's all about the THUMPY THUMPY....now go get a teddy bear backpack and some fake fur chaps, take some unknown pill and get with the fucking program, artist.


gee whiz...


ps.....i am with one of the BRFC's (big fucking rave camp) and this year we are going to play Sandstorm, by Darude, 24/7-all week, at 100,000 watts per channel.

now THATS art....
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Post by oFZo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:02 am

I realise BM isn't about raving (defenitely not for me at least) , I meant that it's very hard (if not impossible) to ignore it out there and if you don't like it (or even detest it as you say) I imagine it wouldn't be much fun out there for you.
Ok, thread derailed enough now.
I'm sorry I can't offer help regarding flame proof materials of the kind you're looking for.
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Post by oneeyeddick » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:17 am

If you just run around nekkid, odds are you won't catch on fire.
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Post by pinemom » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:58 am

Now I was gonna say that Dick!

Skin...the only truely fire-resistant material.

FYI, Nina, maybe if your question wasnt so....?
{{"Yes I hate blinky-lights and detest noisy ravers; just workin' on my project, and hope to come up with something nifty and expressive that doesn't also piss people off."}}

Hate is such a strong word!You apparently have low regards for anyone elses art, Ravers are artists too.



Try CarbonX...no tulle, but lighter weight fabrics.
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Post by Bob » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:30 am

There are no fireproof fabrics, dearie.

Or flameproof posts.
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Post by The CO » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:02 pm

Nina, what you are looking for doesn't really exist. Feathers & Maribou are are inherently quick to burn/melt. You can treat a lot of material with a variety of chemicals, but fire proof fabric by its very nature needs to be thick to prevent conduction of heat.
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Post by CapSmashy » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:07 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:ps.....i am with one of the BRFC's (big fucking rave camp) and this year we are going to play Sandstorm, by Darude, 24/7-all week, at 100,000 watts per channel.

now THATS art....
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Post by Token » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:01 pm

Bob and the CO pretty much gave you the correct short answer. Everything can and will burn, eventually.

You seem to be familiar with the Aramids (Nomex, Kevlar, etc). There are many more compounds in this family like Kynol etc. Pure Kevlar actually resembles silk in both texture and properties, so does Kynol. Nomex is soft as cotton and if you get some Nomex skivvies like the race car drivers wear you can be flame resistant and warm during those cold playa nights. :)

The Kevlar that you see commercially available is usually a complex compound made from fiberglass core with woven kevlar strands. This is the stuff fire performers make their tools out of; the kevlar is just a mechanical stabilizer for the more fragile fiberglass.

Other high heat materials like PBI, oxidized PAN (Carbon Felt) are available however they are usually packaged for durable industrial applications, not soft costume making.

Oxidised PAN is used in Welding Blankets. Alas, they usually put fiberglass mesh in there as well and it makes the blanket unsuitable for creating garments. Good for 3000 degrees though. In pure form it is a soft felt material. PantherFelt is a woven herring-bone type cloth that resembles a good wool suitable for making suits. Good to ~ 1500 degrees.

Frayed fiberglass can be made to resemble feathers however it will melt and burn just like it does in a tiki-torch.

If you provide specifics for your project, you may get more specific answers that the general stuff here. It is like asking folks to give you a summary of decades of experience based on a vague notion of high heat.

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Post by Gravity Mike » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:55 pm

Bob wrote:There are no fireproof fabrics, dearie.

Or flameproof posts.
Bob is correct, but depending on the cosmetic look and fire exposure, I would recomend 'intumescent paint.' I've seen demonstations where a sheet of newspaper can protect you a pretty good size open flame - but the paint sort of foams up when exposed to extreme heat. And I don't know if its available clear, typically I've seen it purple. An intended application is to paint stripes across large industrial cable trays to prevent electrical fire spread, so the color is to verify application.

If you can get it clear, it can be used to protect against accidental fire exposure. If the intended use is to repeatedly and intentionally expose it to fire, it'll foam up and you're done. It is expensive I believe, but will effectively fireproof anything.

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Flame proof

Post by Taz » Sun May 11, 2008 12:57 pm

How about asbestos?

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Post by MikeVDS » Sun May 11, 2008 2:21 pm

Asbestos isn't a fabric. It's been added into woven fabrics, like canvas, to help it resist fire. I'm not sure what fabrics are available and their properties, but it's a decent idea of where to start looking.

I know you were probably being sarcastic, but when used properly asbestos can be very safe. You may have to get it from outside the U.S. and some European nations, but most of the world still uses it for many purposes. It's a great material and is safer than many things we still use in the U.S.
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Post by gyre » Sun May 11, 2008 5:15 pm

Nomex, stainless steel and titanium velcro are available.
A lot is done with nomex.
There is, of course, fire resistant gel.
Reflective gear is used for volcanic research and some industrial work
Boron aluminum matrix can take 1800 degrees in some forms, if that helps.
Last I heard, gold mirror was the best shield from heat.
I've used it on mylar which will not take direct flame.

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Post by Taz » Mon May 12, 2008 7:52 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Asbestos isn't a fabric. It's been added into woven fabrics, like canvas, to help it resist fire. I'm not sure what fabrics are available and their properties, but it's a decent idea of where to start looking.

I know you were probably being sarcastic, but when used properly asbestos can be very safe. You may have to get it from outside the U.S. and some European nations, but most of the world still uses it for many purposes. It's a great material and is safer than many things we still use in the U.S.
I know it's not a fabric but as you say, it still can be woven into one which might satisfy the user's question. If you wear it, I don't think there is much chance of it entering your lungs and causing cancer. Just a thought.

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Post by Taz » Mon May 12, 2008 7:57 pm

gyre wrote:Nomex, stainless steel and titanium velcro are available.
A lot is done with nomex.
There is, of course, fire resistant gel.
Reflective gear is used for volcanic research and some industrial work
Boron aluminum matrix can take 1800 degrees in some forms, if that helps.
Last I heard, gold mirror was the best shield from heat.
I've used it on mylar which will not take direct flame.
Are stainless steel and titanium velco actually a fabric or used like the nylon ones, as a fastener? What is boron aluminum matrix? Does it come as a fabric? All these materials and fire resistant gel, where do you get them and are they expensive?

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Post by gyre » Mon May 12, 2008 9:35 pm

Taz wrote:Are stainless steel and titanium velcro actually a fabric or used like the nylon ones, as a fastener? What is boron aluminum matrix? Does it come as a fabric? All these materials and fire resistant gel, where do you get them and are they expensive?
The stainless steel is exactly like the nylon, woven.
Nomex velcro is very cheap.
I don't know if it's woven or molded.
Velcro solves a lot of problems with unusual materials.
The stainless is about $35 a foot.
Boron aluminum is the lightest, most heat resistant material I know of.
I don't know if it has been extruded into a fiber.
I have two sources if you're interested.
I doubt it's cheap.
I doubt it's an insulator like asbestos fiber.
The safe exposure level to airborne asbestos is 0 ppm.
The gel is used by stuntmen and I don't know about costs.
Nomex fabric is widely available.
It might be worth looking into the higher end bike suits.
They are mostly engineered for abrasion, not heat though.
Racecar Engineering is a good source for suit suppliers.
http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protect ... index.html
http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protect ... index.html
http://www.berrygel.co.za/index_files/Page462.htm

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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue May 13, 2008 4:53 pm

Taz wrote:
MikeVDS wrote:Asbestos isn't a fabric. It's been added into woven fabrics, like canvas, to help it resist fire. I'm not sure what fabrics are available and their properties, but it's a decent idea of where to start looking.

I know you were probably being sarcastic, but when used properly asbestos can be very safe. You may have to get it from outside the U.S. and some European nations, but most of the world still uses it for many purposes. It's a great material and is safer than many things we still use in the U.S.
I know it's not a fabric but as you say, it still can be woven into one which might satisfy the user's question. If you wear it, I don't think there is much chance of it entering your lungs and causing cancer. Just a thought.
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Post by EspressoDude » Tue May 13, 2008 5:14 pm

DO NOT EVEN THINK OF USING ASBESTOS

from asbestos.com regarding asbestos cloth

Weavers work in textile mills, weaving cloth that is used for a variety of commercial products. The mills that were used to manufacture cloth typically worked with a variety of fabrics. Because of this, many textile weavers may have suffered from asbestos exposure. Asbestos is a fine, silky naturally occurring mineral that, in the past, was woven into fabric. Asbestos is actually the only natural mineral that can be woven into a fabric. The asbestos fabric was used for a variety of purposes. Asbestos is a naturally fire proof and heat proof material, so cloth woven from its fibers was used to make protective clothing.

At one time, the manufacturing of asbestos cloth was big business. Asbestos cloth could be used to make coveralls, blankets and gloves that were used in a variety of industries. Because asbestos is heatproof, fireproof and does not conduct electricity, the protective clothing manufactured from asbestos cloth was used in many industries. Electrical workers, train conductors, tool and die makers and welders all wore protective gear manufactured by weavers that handled asbestos. It is an unfortunate irony that the fabric that was designed to protect the employees from burns and heat may actually have caused life ending diseases.

Even if the textile weavers did not weave cloth made from asbestos fibers themselves, the mills where these people worked were often contaminated with asbestos residue from other projects. One of the benefits, and also one of the drawbacks of asbestos is that it is virtually indestructible. The fibers continually break down into smaller and smaller pieces, until they are microscopic, however they do not totally decompose. Asbestos dust stays in the air and on the soil of a contaminated area until it is professionally removed. One example of this was a textile mill that was closed in the late 1970s due to asbestos contamination. Although it was well known that asbestos was in the plant, the building remained empty until 2004, when it was razed and the area was properly cleaned.

This is just one instance of many where those that were not even in the occupation affected could become exposed to asbestos. Residents of towns that had textile mills were often pleased at the good jobs in their community, but the air in these locations were often contaminated with asbestos particles. Once the asbestos factories closed down, the buildings stood empty. Even if the economy in the area was strong enough to draw new business, the contaminated mills were expensive to clean and bring up to date. Because of this they often stood empty for years, or decades, until they could be dealt with, often at tax payer's expense.

People often fail to understand how asbestos exposure occurs. Asbestos fibers, when they break down, form microscopic particles. When these particles become airborne, asbestos exposure occurs. Once in the air, the asbestos dust is easily inhaled or ingested, where it may lead to the development of mesothelioma or asbestosis. In textile mills, the asbestos fibers from long forgotten or abandoned weaving projects are easily disturbed by the activity and machinery in the mill. One study determined that workers in textile mills that handled asbestos cloth had 300 times the level of asbestos in their bodies as those who did not work in the industry. This certainly does not bode well for the many retired textile mill workers today. High levels of asbestos in the body are one of the warning signs that you may be at risk of developing asbestosis or mesothelioma, another is prolonged exposure. Many weavers worked in textile mills for forty or more years, their entire working life. If that is the case, the double risk factors of high levels of asbestos in the body and prolonged exposure makes the development of asbestos related disease a grave concern.

Asbestos Exposure

Exposure to asbestos can lead to the development of mesothelioma as well as asbestosis. Mesothelioma is an aggressive form of asbestos cancer that invades the mesothelium of the body, and can settle in the heart, abdomen or most frequently, the lungs. By the late 1970s, the general public realized that asbestos was hazardous, and pressure was placed on companies to avoid the use of the product. By 1978, its use had been prohibited. Despite the seemingly quick response to the concerns over asbestos exposure, the reality is that many companies had some knowledge over these health concerns, but did not pass them along to their employees. Firm evidence was in place that implicated asbestos exposure to mesothelioma as early as the mid 1950s.

Because of the long latency period between exposure to asbestos and the development of one of these diseases, many weavers that worked in the industry prior to 1978 may only now be experiencing health problems associated with their exposure.
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Post by MikeVDS » Tue May 13, 2008 6:07 pm

I don't know about manufacturing practices today, but you don't want to buy it from somewhere that doesn't protect its employees.

The rate of problems from asbestos is low and typically only affects those with high exposure. Exposing yourself to extremely low levels for short periods of time shouldn't be a problem. I abate asbestos occasionally at medical facilities. In California we have some of the highest restrictions on the stuff in the world (if not the highest). The action level is what we call the level in the air that one must be certified to be in the area. That happens to be 0.1 fiber per cubic centimeter, or 1 fiber per 10 cubic centimeters. That is considered safe with no equipment other than a certification. The level where basic respirators are required is 0.3 fibers per cubic centimeter. Having looked at our test results and results from the past from during an abatement when people are ripping and crumbling this stuff to remove it from it's location, I've never seen the level even reach 0.005 fibers per cubic centimeter. Even though the workers wear their equipment, it wasn't required. I'm not certain of what the exposure would be for flexing asbestos cloth, but I'm guessing it would be very low as well. The problems associated with asbestos are typically, if not always, from mills where exposure levels were hundreds of times higher than legally allowed today, and even then your chances were pretty good to have no problems.

If you want to know the details on a particular fabric you may be able to find the information somewhere or test it yourself. There are companies in your area that will be able to run a simple test for less than $100. We use a company called H2 Environmental here in Southern California.
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Post by gyre » Tue May 13, 2008 6:25 pm

Risks are much higher than you are suggesting.
Some people seem to tolerate high exposure without illness, while others get sick with very little.
Tobacco enhances your risks tremendously.
Until genetic markers are known for risk, the safe limit is 0.
The EPA raised exposure limits based on NO science whatsoever.
It's very similar to the way they dealt with unsafe radiation levels in nevada and denver.
Most people's risk is caused by morons having their radiator system torn out by wrecking tools.

Asbestos differs from silica in this way.
Silicosis seems to be always fatal in high exposures.

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Post by MikeVDS » Tue May 13, 2008 9:57 pm

Risks are much higher than you are suggesting.
Some people seem to tolerate high exposure without illness, while others get sick with very little.
They are? Do you have any evidence of this?

Yes, many people do get sick with high exposure. That is how we found out about the problems. I'm sure some people do get sick with relatively little exposure. I highly doubt anyone has every experienced any problems from acute exposure to small amounts. I've seen the shows on 20/20 type programs where everyone and their mother claims the horrible things that asbestos did to them. It gave them acne, stole their wife, and burned down their house. The problem is you can find people who'll blame anything that's current, bad, and in the news. As far as science goes we know extreme exposure causes problems. We know high exposure causes problems. From that we assume mid exposure will as well and low exposure has a chance. But what we're talking about here is off the charts low. Probably less exposure than you'd get walking through a shopping mall built from the 50's to the 70's low. The stuff can do horrible things to your lungs. I'm not saying it's not dangerous, just at the levels most people are dealing with, it's not a problem. It's the people who are exposed to high amounts or low amounts over a long period that have any reasonable risk of anything.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue May 13, 2008 10:25 pm

I believe there are two kinds of asbestos, "green" and "white" with one being much more toxic. So it's possible that you aren't talking about the same thing.
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asbestos exposure

Post by Taz » Tue May 13, 2008 10:52 pm

Thanks for that wonderful expose' on asbestos. However, my project doesn't involve working in an asbestos plant for years. My project will be a costume for limited performances. I don't expect prolonged exposure to asbestos dust. Most of the time it will be packed away in storage.
Besides that, in metal shop we had gloves woven from asbestos fabric. If the risk from those gloves were so high , I'm sure the schools would have banned them by now.
I'm probably more worried about getting cancer from second hand tobacco smoke in a club than from wearing a costume for limited performances.

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Re: asbestos exposure

Post by gyre » Wed May 14, 2008 12:43 am

Taz wrote: Besides that, in metal shop we had gloves woven from asbestos fabric. If the risk from those gloves were so high , I'm sure the schools would have banned them by now.
I hope you're joking there.

Anyone that is using asbestos, especially in a flexible medium, needs to be informed about the risks.
As far as I am aware, the real danger is through inhalation.
If you are handling this material indoors, as in taking it out of a box, you might expose yourself to a serious amount and contaminate the area.
I am sure there are many existing materials out there with asbestos.
It may be that for some purposes, there is still no substitute.

But, in spite of spending a great deal of money, there has been no evidence produced that there is any safe exposure to airborne asbestos.
The secret research done by the industry has come out in court proceedings and even if it has been sealed, it has been seen.
When the fibers are inhaled, they are generally thought to catch in the lung tissue and damage the area, reducing your lung capacity (at best).
This is not noticed until a certain point.

I have a friend who is a goldsmith and can no longer go as high as the playa due to lung damage.
He begins turning blue without oxygen.

Mike, I've consulted with the local osha engineer about asbestos, and the cdc, on my own behalf.
And I used to live with a toxic hydrogeologist federally certified in atlanta for asbestos analysis and abatement.(Smart girls are so hot, aren't they?)
Her sister was an epidemiologist with the cdc, doing high risk research.
She has had access to all kinds of material that are not made public, and it's pretty disturbing to hear about some of the worst cases.
Asbestos risk is pretty simple compared to some of the complex interactions of chemicals and heavy metals.
Can you say "canary in the coal mine?"

I agree that setting yourself on
fire counts as a risk too.

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Post by MikeVDS » Wed May 14, 2008 6:23 am

But, in spite of spending a great deal of money, there has been no evidence produced that there is any safe exposure to airborne asbestos.
You can say that replacing the word asbestos with about almost anything. Besides that, it's pretty much impossible to prove something is not dangerous, you can only prove in which situations it is dangerous. Can't prove a negative. The OSHA and EPA guys love to say that same line you said, and it's in all the books, but it's meaningless fluff. It's not data and facts. The facts are that most people who have encountered older building or done work in them have been exposed to low levels of asbestos and there are no known links to this kind of exposure and mesothemioma or asbestosis.

I have a friend who is a goldsmith and can no longer go as high as the playa due to lung damage.
Yeah, and doing the work he did would probably mess up anyone's lungs. I'm not saying there aren't ways to mess up your lungs.
Mike, I've consulted with the local osha engineer about asbestos, and the cdc, on my own behalf.
And if I worked for OSHA or the CDC I'd have to tell you the exact same thing I'm sure. Ask them to send you the studies on the rate of confirmed cases and exposure limits. You'll start to see none below certain numbers. If you find outliers you'll find they can probably be related to something other than asbestos or a large unknown exposure.
And I used to live with a toxic hydrogeologist federally certified in atlanta for asbestos analysis and abatement.
And what do all these people say? That probably quote the EPA guideline not thinking about what they are saying, just mimicking and saying /in zombie voice "There are no safe levels of exposure to airborne asbestos" /off zombie. Ask them what the actual risk is at certain levels. If they have some data that proves me incorrect I'd love to see it, but we both know they don't. I don't believe something just because someone says something, it has to have data to back it up.

As to before, that there are different types of asbestos, there are actually many types and three that were common in U.S. industry. As far as I know they are all dangerous and none of them are safer for your lungs. Some are harder to deal with for various reasons, but they aren't safer.
Her sister was an epidemiologist with the cdc, doing high risk research.
She has had access to all kinds of material that are not made public, and it's pretty disturbing to hear about some of the worst cases.
Yes the stuff is bad. High risk is bad. How about the low risk cases? Oh wait, there are no cases that fall into the exposed to a few fibers over lifetime?
If you are handling this material indoors, as in taking it out of a box, you might expose yourself to a serious amount and contaminate the area.
They keyword is "might". More likely you'll expose yourself to lower levels than are already in the room, but the only way to know and protect yourself is to run air samples and have the fibers counted under a microscope. Like I said, it's pretty cheap and if you want to use these materials, you should test them.

It's legal to import asbestos products into the U.S. If you didn't know, many brake pads have asbestos and you're being exposed to low levels when you drive around other cars. There are also levels around train tracks. Also you'll find it floating around many older buildings. You better avoid all those things or wear your respirators. And remember, there are no proven safe levels of peanuts.
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Post by gyre » Wed May 14, 2008 12:47 pm

Quoting-You can say that replacing the word asbestos with about almost anything. Besides that, it's pretty much impossible to prove something is not dangerous, you can only prove in which situations it is dangerous.
Quoting

That's the party line of the chemical industry and they would love for everyone to buy in.
"Safe, until proven dangerous." (And spend the money yourself to find out.)
That hasn't worked too well.
I think the unknown is a risk until proven otherwise.
They used this old line as an excuse to keep research secret about asbestos, tobacco, benzene, pvc, and on and on...

Mike, if the epa did it's job, she would never have any work.`
Her research includes examining lung tissue samples of asbestos damage.
You could do the same.

The tendency to lock in place and never come out appears to be the mechanism of such severe lung damage with asbestos.
It's really not rocket science.
The mechanism is visible.

Last I checked, the reason why it is fatal quickly to some and not others, is not known.
But damage is certain.
You can do your own research,
or just take your chances.

We all have a more or less high baseline exposure already to asbestos from past use of the material, floor tiles, kitty litter, adhesive, roofing, brakes, heating systems, etc.
If you're going to add to that, you should make sure it's worth the risk.

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Wed May 14, 2008 6:01 pm

Vermiculite.

They don't sell those gloves anymore. Draw your own conclusions.

The EPA does its job, if congress passed laws to give juristiction over certain things to the epa and funded it, you might be more pleased with the results.
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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