To anyone approved for an artcar!

[JRoyale]

I unjustly got denied for an artcar in which I have invested thousands of dollars into. It is safe, radically illuminated, and follows all necessary criteria. They think its is not mutant enough to be an artcar. I think I got rejected because I did not have a good picture.

I am asking someone if they would send me their confirmation e-mail so I can bring it anyway. Please help me out, I really feel cheated after putting so much into it!

sktelement@aol.com

Hey Sktelement

I'm sorry you feel that you were unjustly denied an invite bring your vehicle to the event. I did go back into our database and look up your application and I have to say that I agree decision not to invite your vehicle to the playa. Your application was more then just a little lacking. Your picture was of a completely stock go kart and your description of your mutation was minimal to say the least. If you'd like, I can quote what you sent us.

I would like to discourage you from attempting to "crash" the event by forging paperwork to get in, as you'll have no chance of getting a proper license. And without the licensed there's a good chance that you'll have a run in with the BLM Rangers or the BRC Rangers Intercept Team. Both of which could impound your vehicle and potentially evict you from the event. Further, the DMV is moving to the keyhole at the entrance to Center Camp and from this vantage point, we will be on the look out for those that choose to ignore our simple rules.

Further, I have put a note your application of this conversation and want you to know that we can, and have, considered the past behavior of an owner when deciding whether or not to license a vehicle. So if you do get caught driving without a license, it could impact your ability to get a license in future years.

Sorry to be such a "heavy" here, but the DMV has invested a great deal of effort to earn and maintain the trust of the BLM and as a direct result of that effort the BLM has given us a great deal of latitude when it comes to mutant vehicles.

We realize that no one likes to be told "no", especially in a community like Burning Man. But the fact of the matter is that Burning Man is a pedestrian and bicycle ONLY event. PERIOD. We have created an exemption for Mutant Vehicles and that, unfortunately, requires us to decide what is and isn't an MV. There really isn't anyway around that and I certainly more the happy to explain why and how we do what we do, if you're interested in having that particular conversation.

And if you (or anyone) is unhappy with just how the DMV operates or the decisions it makes I do encourage you to join the DMV and help fix the problems instead of trying to "drive" around them.

JR
DMV Council

[Fire_Moose]

OHHHHH SHIIIIIIT!!!!!!!!!



Where is my popcorn.....

[capjbadger]

JRoyale, thank you for posting. It's really nice to have the input of the actual dept. in question.

I'm sure you've also seen the other lively conversation going on about MV's.

But the fact of the matter is that Burning Man is a pedestrian and bicycle ONLY event.

I can only assume this is why there are no art grants for MVs? I've always found it odd that an art piece can get grants, but when the same art piece becomes mobile, it not longer can. Why?

A bit of a question: What are you guys looking for during the on-playa approval process. The website is rather sparce on info. This will be my first time going through that and I have this nagging feeling I'm forgetting something that will keep me from getting day and night tags for it.
Thanks.

Badger

[JRoyale]

I can only assume this is why there are no art grants for MVs? I've always found it odd that an art piece can get grants, but when the same art piece becomes mobile, it not longer can. Why?

I have no idea, ask Lady Bee. Although, I think there is at least one Mutant Vehicle that got a grant this year.

A bit of a question: What are you guys looking for during the on-playa approval process. The website is rather sparce on info. This will be my first time going through that and I have this nagging feeling I'm forgetting something that will keep me from getting day and night tags for it.

Yeah, the web site is a bit dated.

Ok so since you asked, what is a mutant vehicle? We start with the premise that all vehicle traffic on the playa has a significant negative impact on the event in terms of stuff like dust, pollution, traffic, safety, etc.

Thus, we define a mutant vehicle as a vehicle whose contribution to the event exceeds its negative impact.

That’s obviously more than a bit vague, but it does give us the flexibility to license stuff that just has to be licensed because it’s so awesome.

Typically, tho’ what we are dealing with is aesthetics - what does the vehicle look like? This easily accounts for 99% of MVs we handle every year. And we try an adopt an “average burnerâ€

[burningflyer]

2008 DEPARTMENT OF MUTANT VEHICLES

On Playa Mutant Vehicle Approval: In service to the Burning Man community since 1997, your 2008 Department of Mutant Vehicle volunteer “Hottiesâ€

[capjbadger]

Thanks for the feed back guys.

OH!! I found it! Straight from the permit from BLM:

"For this event: a "motor vehicle" is any device designed for and capable of travel over land and which is self-propelled by a motor, but does not include any vehicle operated on rails or any motorized wheelchair."

This is the answer I was looking for about my question about the pedaled generator to motor human powered system. Long as the vehicle is not self-propelled, the BLM doesn't call it a motor vehicle. Perfect.

Now to just see if a system is workable.

Badger

[Toolmaker]

Thanks for the feed back guys.

OH!! I found it! Straight from the permit from BLM:

"For this event: a "motor vehicle" is any device designed for and capable of travel over land and which is self-propelled by a motor, but does not include any vehicle operated on rails or any motorized wheelchair."

This is the answer I was looking for about my question about the pedaled generator to motor human powered system. Long as the vehicle is not self-propelled, the BLM doesn't call it a motor vehicle. Perfect.

Now to just see if a system is workable.

Badger

If you're talkin about that pedal to electric idea I say go fer it. I kinda dig that idea.. you're were gonna use alternators or somesuch right powered by pedals?

[capjbadger]

If you're talkin about that pedal to electric idea I say go fer it. I kinda dig that idea.. you're were gonna use alternators or somesuch right powered by pedals?

Yeah, that's the idea. I'd like to make my MV human powered, but the normal chain type drive isn't really workable with the current drivetrain/steering setup. Course I'll be picking people's brains about it out there this year. Maybe someone will have an idea.

So right now the idea is to pedal a permanet magnet motor as the generator wired straight to a DC motor on the other side. Maybe a small flywheel to smooth things out. I can push the MV on foot. We'll see if I can pedal hard enough to move it as well.

Badger

[Captain Goddammit]

The GM CS-130 alternators I'm using in my Land Yacht seem very efficient, I'd give those a try, especially since you can get 'em for next to nuthin' at a wrecking yard. I think I'd set up my pedals to turn the alternator, which charged a battery and ran the drive motor.
Oh wait... I wonder if that crosses the line too much. It would give you the option of running on whatever charge you had built up in your battery.
Screw it, pedal power sucks in a mutant vehicle anyway!

[capjbadger]

The GM CS-130 alternators I'm using in my Land Yacht seem very efficient, I'd give those a try, especially since you can get 'em for next to nuthin' at a wrecking yard. I think I'd set up my pedals to turn the alternator, which charged a battery and ran the drive motor.
Oh wait... I wonder if that crosses the line too much. It would give you the option of running on whatever charge you had built up in your battery.
Screw it, pedal power sucks in a mutant vehicle anyway!

Alternators are actaully kinda sub-par when it comes to this sort of thing. You have to spin them too fast. Permenate magnet DC motors are the way to go unless you build your gens from scratch.

No battery, or else I'm back to square one and the whole point is moot.

Badger

[MozyBonz]

Pedal Power Bike Generator Frequently Asked Questions
When you turn something on, there is often a large spike in current as shown in the waveform plot graph chart below.

If you are turning on a motor or something that has a lot of capacitance you will see this type of behavior of the current. A motor like a kitchen blender or electric weed eater takes a couple of seconds to spin up. During that time the resistance of the motor changes from being very low to high. When the resistance is low, the motor requires or "draws" more current then it's typical nominal operating current.

http://scienceshareware.com/bicycle-generator-faq.htm

[gyre]

Borrow one of the bigger kinetic vehicles and pedal it around for awhile on the playa.
Then extrapolate that to your bigger vehicle, and you'll have some idea of what you're attempting.

[capjbadger]

Good info Mozy. I'm going with the "hook it up and try it" methode route first to see if I can even get the motor moving in the first place.

And good idea gyre. Is the KSR camp going to be around this year?

Badger

[Starman97]

Tell me something DMV,
How many MV's were approved vs how many
Staff/DPW and other plain old golf carts.
I sure saw a whole lot of plain old golf carts buzzing about,
hanging at theme camps, gathered at all the big sites etc.

Also how many handicap carts were approved, seems like a good way to get a cart in, get a token camp gimp and you get a golf cart approved.

With regards to MV's being some sort of public transport, that's a joke, it's a very rare MV that will let anyone on that is not part of it's inner circle.
They are private vehicles for use of the member of the theme camp that brought them. Well at least that's how about 90% of them operate.

Those that do let people on, well they get the cool points from me.

I do see the other side, having been on one of the 'private' cars and seeing the operators have deal with people climbing on un-invited and while in motion, they did not have a bouncer and had to put up with the 'stowaway' mooching drinks and smokes off everyone else on the MV.

I did see more than a few MVs that were barely that, like a pickup with a couch on the back on a liftable platform, it's still a pickup truck, even had current plates on it.

[gyre]

Tell me something DMV,
How many MV's were approved vs how many
Staff/DPW and other plain old golf carts.
I sure saw a whole lot of plain old golf carts buzzing about,
hanging at theme camps, gathered at all the big sites etc.

Also how many handicap carts were approved, seems like a good way to get a cart in, get a token camp gimp and you get a golf cart approved.

It may be possible to set up a symbiotic arrangement by providing transport for disabled people who can't afford to get vehicles to the playa.
In turn, they could run ice and drop people and bikes off at the far reaches.
Of course, no one else could drive the vehicle or it would be impounded.
And the primary use would have to be for disabled transport.
(I don't know how the dmv would feel about this sort of arrangement.)

Post the dmv plates for the cars you object to.
Could be dpw, cops or illegal.


And of course the org uses golf carts, because the city works so well for bikes and pedestrian use only.

[Dustdevil]

That is really a good question. I will ask for that information AND permission to publish it. I have a rough idea, but I am not at liberty to publish it without asking first. I do know that many of the undecorated golf carts and other vehicles, including standard passenger cars are driven by Staff. I use a Kawasaki Mule for my Flame Effects inspections. There are more staff members than golf carts available, so I bring my own. I am responsible for my own maintainence, naturally. It is decorated but not to the extreme. It does look nice at night. I leave the tailgate down and I constantly have people jumping on the back or asking for rides. I have never said "No". Once in a while I will divert out of my way to help someone who has something heavy to carry. The other vehicle license out there are the one day artery driving permits. These allow an artist to bring supplies, fuel etc, to art work that is on the Playa. For example, Mutopia required refueling of methanol and that had to be brought out by a truck. Fireworks for the various displays also had to be trucked out. The Artery passes are generally issued on a day-to-day basis.

[Dustdevil]

Starman,

Here is the answer to your question, or at least as much of it as we have data on.


total applied ~ 850
total denied pre playa ~ 200
total denied on playa ~ 50
total no shows ~ 50
total licensed ~ 550
number of disabled ~ 125

Note: The disabled number is NOT included in the total MV applications.
Note: These numbers are close, but not exact. They are within a few numbers of the actual numbers. The final data from the Playa is not up yet, but this is VERY close.
Note: This does NOT include Staff vehicles. If you look at the various license markings you will see the Artery and DPW comprise the bulk of staff vehicles. The numbers for staff vehicles is not tracked so we do not know those figures. Staff vehicles will include golf carts and personal vehicles.
Note: This also does not include the daily Artery driving passes that are issued on a day-to-day basis.

I hope this puts to rest some of the mis information about DMV applications. The DMV does not have any control over the Staff or daily Artery passes. These are issued indendently of DMV.

[Captain Goddammit]

With regards to MV's being some sort of public transport, that's a joke, it's a very rare MV that will let anyone on that is not part of it's inner circle.
They are private vehicles for use of the member of the theme camp that brought them. Well at least that's how about 90% of them operate.

Those that do let people on, well they get the cool points from me.

I do see the other side, having been on one of the 'private' cars and seeing the operators have deal with people climbing on un-invited and while in motion, they did not have a bouncer and had to put up with the 'stowaway' mooching drinks and smokes off everyone else on the MV.

Here's some more from "the other side". (I've operated various mutant vehicles since '01).
The DMV license does require us to allow participants to ride with us, and when I have capacity for more I do.
The problem is that half the time people want point-to-point taxi service. In past years I tried to accommodate that, and found that I could never get where I was going, or even back to my camp! The DMV doesn't require taxi service from the mutants... if you choose to get on, you're going where we're going.
I hate turning people down when they want to ride along, really, but the most common reason is that people are heavy! Ten people is generally around a ton. Most mutant vehicles aren't built to take unlimited amounts of weight. It sucks, people look at the boat, see enough room for more to climb on, and don't believe me when I 'splain why I can't take more than the 10 or 12 already aboard, assuming it's a "private party". I've blown out tires trying to let too many on at once; and of course then they all get off and leave and I have to fix it.

[tubahurl]

With regards to MV's being some sort of public transport, that's a joke, it's a very rare MV that will let anyone on that is not part of it's inner circle.
They are private vehicles for use of the member of the theme camp that brought them. Well at least that's how about 90% of them operate.

Those that do let people on, well they get the cool points from me.

I do see the other side, having been on one of the 'private' cars and seeing the operators have deal with people climbing on un-invited and while in motion, they did not have a bouncer and had to put up with the 'stowaway' mooching drinks and smokes off everyone else on the MV.

I have to agree on the "entitlement crowd" thinking that you're their boy to chauffer their happy asses around the playa is wrong. Sorry Minky, I didn't build this thing for your spectator like amusement. I built it for the enjoyment of participants who want to either spin like mad, or go where I'm going. In either case, if they're game, so am I. If not, it's full spin cycle for you Babe until you beg me to stop. As with the other MV last year, our defense against the Jet Set heathens is the spin cycle. I just love asking: Are you always that shade of green?

BTW Cap'n GD The cape was a nice touch and thanks for the comp. on the Tub!

[LeChatNoir]

One of the highlights for me this year was being able to give a few people rides. I hadn’t had any ability to test the vehicle before hand, so this year was really a test run for the old girl. However, even after tuning it up mid-week (Thanks again, Tubahurl), it still was a lot of work for that little engine to move many people around, especially in a dune. Glad we could still hand pump to help it out. Six, maybe eight in good conditions (that's including engineer and driver).

The few who asked and couldn’t get a ride were understanding about the strain on the engine. And a couple of times there were people wanting to get on who I thought were simply saying hello or commenting, but I couldn’t make it out over the engine noise until it was too late and they perhaps thought we‘d just passed them by on purpose. So if we inadvertently snubbed anybody, I’m sorry about that.

But the ones we did give rides to gave me so much joy to see them smiling that it was infectious. And the small (mostly standing only) deck is sort of self-limiting when it comes to passengers, so that helps.

[ygmir]

one of the guys in our camp made an MV it was the "Gerlach stage company" and had a red dragon pulling a blue stagecoach......

he stopped and picked people up all the time, and, even took people places, sometimes....... his only deal was when he felt there were to many on board for safety.......


A lot of folks really liked it, and, thanked him since most of the cars wouldn't let folks on........

I tried with a friend to get on one at the burn, just to be told it's full, but (and I guess I understand) when a couple of topless lass' walked up and asked, he almost carried them on board and served them drinks.......

dang.....

anyway,
My hats off to my campmate for sharing to the best of his ability..

[Grazelda]

curiosity compels me to ask...

is the DMV willing to give glance reviews of proposed MVs - without/before formal submission for approval? we have some ideas we'd like to play with but would rather vet 'em in concept before building.

excuse my virginosity, but is the DMV inspection part of the gate process? what do you do about an MV which has to be assembled before it can be properly inspected and licensed?

[LeChatNoir]

You’ll need a copy of the invite that the DMV will email you after the concept is approved through the applicaiton process(sometime in April or May?) Then you’d have to assemble it on the playa and drive it to the DMV twice. Once for day license and once for night license.

I don't think the DMV has a specific method of vetting an idea before the actual application process. Best bet is to review the guidelines, especially all the great advice in this thread and then either got for it or not.

But hey... you got some of the DMV in this very thread. Who knows what a question or two might turn up?

[gyre]

curiosity compels me to ask...

is the DMV willing to give glance reviews of proposed MVs - without/before formal submission for approval? we have some ideas we'd like to play with but would rather vet 'em in concept before building.

excuse my virginosity, but is the DMV inspection part of the gate process? what do you do about an MV which has to be assembled before it can be properly inspected and licensed?

The dmv will do that.
But a cautionary note.
On concept alone, some things come off lame and pass when executed well and vice versa.
I've seen a lot of mvs that look like shit in the daytime and are extraordinary at night.
So it can be hard to communicate how some things will come off, especially if you don't have the thing finished.

Here's some more from "the other side". (I've operated various mutant vehicles since '01).
The DMV license does require us to allow participants to ride with us, and when I have capacity for more I do.
The problem is that half the time people want point-to-point taxi service. In past years I tried to accommodate that, and found that I could never get where I was going, or even back to my camp! The DMV doesn't require taxi service from the mutants... if you choose to get on, you're going where we're going.

And Captain GD, many people continue to promote MVs as public transport.
Someone in the dmv told me that a week ago and should know better.

You are right.
They are almost completely useless for transport anywhere unless someone is willing to run you somewhere directly.
Burning man needs a more compact layout and/or a reliable shuttle service for the long distances.

[Toolmaker]

Last year I was lucky enough to sub for a night on the crawler crew (jawa sandcrawler). I am thankful he asked me to keep an eye on things since it was an invaluable learning experience for my future mutant car plans. One of the things I never realized until doing was that the load on a vehicle is VERY important like Capt said. Worse than tires.. can you imagine the ache of your suspension going. Not good.. The Sandcrawler is a large HEAVY mutant ontop of an already heavy vehicle. After furniture and people it comes VERY close to the ground. A count of both levels has to be maintained on these things and even distribution of weight in many cases. Not all the mutants have the capabilities of the purple palace. All the folks that hitched a ride were decent about complying the few times I asked em to even the weight out. I also got to play with the flame cannon which was had a button. This allowed for more creative smallish bursts to please the crowd below. I got to ride the purple palace this year, now that thing is a trip. While I didnt get to talk with the "staff" the experience is unforgetable. It was like a madhouse at night and the suspension still looked like it would hold. I don't think many participants realize just how much work it is.

Thanks to all who built and brought.. even those that had to stay parked. It was nice seeing all those mobile works of art this year.

[Colonel Monk]

A few personal thoughts.....

I've never felt there was too many MVs on the playa. Being a gearhead, I'm entranced with all MVs and can't really see how there are too many.

I love reading the threads/posts saying that the Org receive complaints that there's too many MVs. Please post these formal complaints that you catalog so we can read them. I'll bet there were very few this year.

At 5 mph, if you almost get run down by an MV you're probably an idiot anyway; survival of the fittest....

If there is a maximum number of vehicles that the BLM specs for the event, why isn't it posted (well fuck I've looked an have not found it)?

This year was a MF'er for those on bikes due to the conditions. Oh yeah, I know what some are thinking "wah wah, I had to work hard to get around the playa" but I think many of us felt the difference in stoke level at the event. Most of us without powered transport saw less of the city due to the bigger city footprint and conditions, and were more likely not to fully participate because it was difficult. I only went to the deep playa once this year, and it was a motherfucker. In previous years I went there all day, several times a day/night.

I was trying to ride a rickshaw, and not only was it very difficult but the conditions contributed to the failure of my drivetrain 3 separate times.

It seemed to me that there were way less mutant vehicles to ride on then ever before.

But I'm with Capt. Goddammit, MVs aren't taxis. (You either ride where they're going or you don't.) They are valuable to the community in so many ways, transpo being one of them. But knowing this year was gonna be a bitch for us pedestrians, why not accept all that applied and ask them to help?

On a side note: These vehicles DO have a limit to what they can carry on 4 wheels - but has anyone thought about partnering with someone else with a mutant trailer?

EX: Somebody has a great MV with an engine of excess capacity - if someone was willing to contruct and bring a mutant TRAILER with additional capacity for riders, we could serve the community without needing more MV permits. More could share in the experience and community effort of getting a ride when they need it -- in the direction the vehicle is going, of course.

I'm aware of the tragedy involving a trailer a few years ago, but education and design of the trailer (disallowing an individual to hit the ground between vehicle and trailer) would mitigate this as an issue. Also think of "safety gates" on ski lifts -- you cross the plane, or snag the safety wire, it kills power to the vehicle....

The root of all this is the notion that we have a "pedestrian" city. BS, it's at most a bicyclist city, and that notion was severely challenged this year. Please, stop trying to bullshit us. In the best of times, it's a doable bicycle city. In the worst of times, people didn't get out and around because they didn't have the energy - and that affected the stoke of all of us.

FWIW,

Monk

[Kenny Z]

Yeah, the taxi thing gets me. I can't believe people are not appreciative enough that you are letting them rest their legs, listen to some music, drink the water and beer we offer them (if we have some) and scoot them across the playa. It's also an impossible feat! I did give taxi service twice to a guy with a broken leg and to a girl who claimed she was handicapped.

As far as letting people ride, that is the sole purpose of why I built it. It's easy to meet people when they come up to you. Many people who ride, invite me to their camps for some food or drink too. I think one misconception people have is that if your vehicle is full, they assume it's all friends from your inner circle. That may be true in some cases but I bet it's not as common as people think it is. The only times I started out full with people I know is when I make my first night trip from the camp to the playa. It's generally a few people from my camp and people we recently met from our surrounding camps. After an hour, half the people on our MV have bailed to do their own thing.

One thing that pissed me off is when I was driving by myself, picked up about 8 people, took them out on the playa and got stuck on a dune. I asked for help to push it out and everybody bailed except a couple from Chicago. Pretty frustrating.

[pinemom]

heheeehehe.

Yup.
Ribbit.
Ribbit.
Rubbit.
Love it.


The Playa Frog was designed with the whole concept of picking up peeps. Especially thoughs trying to run diaganolly...to catch anything!
The hard part was when people would get on, and we headed on our way to vast unknown, someone would say hey I need to go to 9:00, then they were informed that we might make it there...might not...depends on what pretty lights jump out at us first...might get you closer? maybe?
And a "ATTITUDE" would come forth.Luckily while I was driving it was only a one time thing...I dont know about the rest of the drivers?

Everyone in our camp was intrusted to drive it, so it made many many many trips out there!before the tranny blew.

I like to look at the Mutant Vehicle as kinda like a Yellow bike...but with NO mission....
You can ride it to wherever ITS going(and IT never knew, truely) But for people to jump on and asked to be taken across the playa in the opposite direction...just didnt work for it.We did pick up a dude that got left at the opening of center camp and take him and his GEAR to 9:00. as that was kinda harsh just leaving the poor dude.
We are even making the Playa frog have a additional seating and a stronger mode of vehicle for next yr, so we can pick up more people....the hard part? How to get some people off so more can get on.
I guess if thats the hardest part...then Im all good with it~

[Elliot]

Is the KSR camp going to be around this year?

Badger

Hey folks... I didn't see this thread until now.
Unfortunately, Kinetic Sculpture Racing Camp did not return in 2008. Main reason was that many of our key members were not willing to put up with the "techno" noise again.

We may have been particularly unlucky last year, to have a very loud camp across the street from us, making KSR-related conversation difficult. But the general din of the thumping from other directions was also a factor.

But... KSR has long been well represented on the Playa, and will continue to be. In many cases, you may not realize that a human-powered vehicle you see is "normally" used in KSR. The shiny aluminum viking ship with the flame-spouting dragon head is one example, and the three wheeler with the six foot tall spoke wheels, decorated with red, white and blue strips on the spokes, is another.

Human power is perfectly realistic on the Playa -- in my personal opinion. Light weight, low gearing and low rolling resistance matter more than when you have extra HP on tap.

Electric transmissions have been tried in KSR. They waste rather a lot of energy.

I'm finally planning my first motorized MV. No telling what year it may be ready, but it will be largely scratch built. For propulsion, I'm thinking of snatching the drivetrain out of a small 4x4 and locking it in Low Range, and plugging the rear driveshaft hole. Any suggestions? Geo Tracker or Subaru Brat? No hurry. When the time comes, I'll probably start a dedicated thread.

What was this thread about again?

[gyre]

Why use a 4wd for 2wd?