Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

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atomicray
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby atomicray » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:46 am

What is Hushville? I assume it is a section set aside for no music. Interesting.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby This Woman » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:59 am

Marck said: We, as the people running theme camps and villages, have a responsibility to educated our people to make sure they understand what it means to be a good citizen of BRC and deal with the problem children we have in our camps.

I think you're just assuming this is going on. I've watched for years as more and more virgins came without benefit of experienced burners (on the bright side, they're doing more researching beforehand). This year I spoke with someone whose entire, mid-sized theme camp was made up entirely of virgins.

Not that a reminder to experienced burners isn't appropriate at this time, though perhaps without the parental tone. :wink:

We had a corner camp that was popular to walkthroughs until about Thursday when the camp filled in completely. I enjoyed jumping up and playing hostess like I was expecting them all along. Left them in the position of explaining their presence. But we got a great idea for next year. Our seemingly innocuous walkthrough will actually be a cleverly devised maze that will let people out in front of where they started by several feet.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:23 pm

Villages and theme camps are responsible for all their members, just like parents are responsible for their children.

If one does not want the responsibility, Then one should not create the Camp or Village. Just like parents who expect the school and community to raise their children.
I'd rather see the cuckoos banned or dissolved, along with driver/owners of the mutant vehicles who feel that they don't need to follow the rules and regulations of ownership.

Virgin Burners, or Burgins, are like children, they are the newbies who have ventured out into the world of BurningMan. There is no shame to this, everyone starts out without experience. But I'm seeing many who are bringing their Undeserved Sense of Self-Entitlement to BRC and after doing it wrong for a year or two they think they get "it" but are still Burgins or, as I think of them, Brogins(Bragins for the females).

Any theme camp or village must take extra steps to make sure your people understand how they are expected to act whether it is drug use, sexual relations, or conflicts with others. I know my camp will deal with troublesome "outsiders" next year in a more direct manner and additionally will have a talk with the originating camp that is hosting the problem child.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby This Woman » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:43 pm

Hey man, thanks for not doubling down on that parental tone.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:45 pm

No problem, anything for you. Need me to do anything else?
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby hookahdude » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:53 pm

Official Un-Official initial post - I have decided to start a new camp for next year - MOOP Nazi Brigade. Manners will be tossed out the fucking window when it comes to MOOPers.. all other manners will be strictly adhered to. If they are not - punishment will be quick and final as we will have our own sand pit to bury people up to their necks and then cover their heads with honey before we unleash our fire ants. COmplete with plexi-walls for your viewing enjoyment....
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Cheyenne » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:36 am

Virgin Burners, or Burgins, are like children


Again, don't assume that all first timers come with the over inflated sense of wonder where all the rules go out of the window; 12 months of planning, a healthy amount of cynicism about the whole 'it'll change your life' bullshit and three fucking weeks of WORK pre and post burn when we got to the USA meant that it was all taken in with a measured sense of perspectivism. We loved some of it, hated other aspects of it, but fuck me, we will be back again next year.

I spent most of my week doing things for other people, building stages, sorting out electrical problems, making costumes, playing music etc etc...

I need a holiday to get over it...
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby AntiM » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:17 am

atomicray wrote:What is Hushville? I assume it is a section set aside for no music. Interesting.


Hushville is a village, the rules being no generators and no amplified music. You must preregister each member of your individual camp, and except for the placed camps on the perimeter, all camping is first come first serve with the unwritten rule of don't be a land hog. we pack 'em in like sardines.

If a Husher brings burgins, then yes, they are expected to tell them how it works, but almost all of ours were catch and release. But then, we didn't bring assholes to camp with us. Hushville is a loose conglomeration of smaller camps, so approaching the village as a whole about "problem children" wouldn't work. You would have to pinpoint the camp... and they might be solo campers.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:26 pm

Cheyenne wrote:
Virgin Burners, or Burgins, are like children


Again, don't assume that all first timers come with the over inflated sense of wonder where all the rules go out of the window; 12 months of planning, a healthy amount of cynicism about the whole 'it'll change your life' bullshit and three fucking weeks of WORK pre and post burn when we got to the USA meant that it was all taken in with a measured sense of perspectivism. We loved some of it, hated other aspects of it, but fuck me, we will be back again next year.


I'm not making a broad brush stroke to include all burgins, just like I don't think all Villages and Theme Camps aren't taking the responsibility to guide their burgins. Unchecked problem burgins who are members of registered theme Camps or Villages mean that those groups are harming the community around them. As well as establishing a precedence of they-aren't-our-problem.

Firstly, I said "are like" children, not "are", also, I'm not using the term children in a negative sense. I'm using it in the sense that some will need additional guidance to adapt to BRC, and they may occasionally need a reminder of how to acceptably deal with situations they might handle differently in the default world. If you will, some children take to water very well and adapt to that environment quickly, where others may need to be reassured and assisted until they feel more confident.

In the same sense that not all children are childish, not all burgins are either. But I've met many Burners who when they saw BRC for the first time it was with child-like wonder.
In over ten years of dessert camping I still get surprised by what the Playa itself is capable of throwing at us every year. The time for a burgin to adapt to being a burner night take longer for some than others.
(I'm defining a child as any human who has not fully developed the required knowledge and skill sets to function in polite society.)
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:43 pm

AntiM wrote:Hushville is a loose conglomeration of smaller camps, so approaching the village as a whole about "problem children" wouldn't work. You would have to pinpoint the camp... and they might be solo campers.


But if there was a problem with a "Solo Camper" or even a problem camp how would Hushville deal with it?
Would it be different if the actions of the individual, or problem camp, endangered the ability for Hushville to get placed?

We are creating our own society out here, with expectations of what we permit to happen and how we are expected to treat others.
BRC isn't run with anarchy nor is BRC run with fascism, it, like any society, is run by standards that we, as citizens, choose to uphold. What we are willing to tolerate and what we will not tolerate. The more anti-social yahoo behavior we allow, the more we contribute to it's growth.

This isn't an easy job, many of us come from communities who's citizens don't participate in shaping their neighborhoods. But I know many of us are willing to take the extra effort to pick up that MOOP, we should also take the extra effort to curb unacceptable behavior in our part of BRC.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:32 pm

marck wrote:We are creating our own society out here, with expectations of what we permit to happen and how we are expected to treat others.
BRC isn't run with anarchy nor is BRC run with fascism, it, like any society, is run by standards that we, as citizens, choose to uphold. What we are willing to tolerate and what we will not tolerate. The more anti-social yahoo behavior we allow, the more we contribute to it's growth.

This isn't an easy job, many of us come from communities who's citizens don't participate in shaping their neighborhoods. But I know many of us are willing to take the extra effort to pick up that MOOP, we should also take the extra effort to curb unacceptable behavior in our part of BRC.

+100
I wonder if the problem lies in how those campers are treated in their camp. Are they expected to pay dues and work X number of hours without any attachment to the theme or purpose of that camp? If they are transient, what motivates them to be good representatives of their camp or to be good citizens of BRC? Wouldn't the root of these answers be found in 'why did they come to BM'? Titties and booze or art and community? Perhaps knowing the 'why' could help these camp leaders outline the very basics of 'how to be a good neighbor' to their birgins.

I know many of the large esplanade camps need fresh meat to build and maintain that gift to the city, but I'm not sure how interested they are in guiding that 'fresh meat'. An esplanade camp (or any large theme camp) is, in itself, a tremendous amount of work.

This, of course, doesn't take into account other people's opinions on how a polite citizen behaves. However, I do believe we can agree that chest puffing aggressive entitlement isn't what we'd like to see become the norm.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby This Woman » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:06 pm

You can build a society out there if you want, but that’s not why I go. I go to Burning Man to experiment with concepts of freedom and self-actualization among other things.

I get it; I’ve had squishy little utopian dreams about Burning Man ethos spreading worldwide. To someone who praised me for collecting litter after a burn, I once suggested that he pick up a bag and help. Now I think I must have sounded like such a prig turning his compliment into a weapon against him. Maybe if I’d kept my self- righteous mouth shut he might have decided to follow my example. Nowadays, I’m a big believer in leading by example. I acknowledge it’s a slow and cumbersome path, but it’s solid in the long run. I think that policing people shuts them down and should be minimized whenever possible. Most times they shut down while behaving as instructed and sometimes they shut down by rebelling, but either way it’s a shut down, and I’d rather people stay open to the possibilities of, well, everything.

You face a big challenge with creating a society in the desert because besides all the differing perspectives, you get to deal with people like me who will never acknowledge Burning Man as anything more than an annual event, though one where a person can experiment with society building. What moop I collect I keep personal or I’m just being a braggart. And while I’m always up to give helpful advise to virgin burners, and while I do orient new camp members on any number of things…and even while I’ll gleefully build a maze to mess with the heads of the discourteous that happen upon my camp, I don’t do no policing for nobody (written entirely in negatives for emphasis). They have trained professionals and volunteers for that - too many even.

BRC is run empirically, if you’re looking for a political model to compare it to. Larry Harvey is king and the organization is his court. That’s not quite accurate either, but a hell of a lot closer than the democracy that you implied.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:33 pm

It is only a once a year camping trip in the desert. It isn't the Gathering of the Juggalos either.

I hate to 'police' people too and monkey see-monkey do works with humans on many levels. However, I do believe running a theme camp requires a least a few guidelines for the uninitiated.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby This Woman » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:17 pm

Oh I agree, Dr J, and the uninitiated in general, are hungry for guidelines. In fact, I usually try to heel them in a bit on the guidelines and remind them this is their experiment. But I'll tell you, I am not responsible for their behavior once they leave the camp, and only in a limited way am I responsible when they are in the camp. If I heard about asshole behavior outside the camp I would address it depending on the severity. But I'd be more inclined to outline the consequences of their behavior rather than tell them what to do.

But I don't agree with Marck about the source of his annoyance. I was on A once and the walkthrough traffic was unbelievable and included an asshat couple deciding to have sex up against one of our structures in broad daylight while campmembers were trying to eat about 10 feet away. I think he's dealing with the high traffic that's to be expected in that neighborhood. Having only once been on A out of many years, the difference was stark and noticeable. I didn't see anything in his post to indicate they were virgin burners of theme camps other than his assumption. Now, if he reconized them as such - neighbors perhaps - he neglected to mention.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:55 pm

Their blatant and continued rude behavior is what led to the assumption that they were noobs. It is, of course, entirely possible that they are just rude fucktards that just don't believe in playing nice with their neighbors. I've been on A street for 4 burns and this year was certainly the worst IMO for the unbelievable disrespectful behavior of people cutting through.

This Woman wrote:If I heard about asshole behavior outside the camp I would address it depending on the severity. But I'd be more inclined to outline the consequences of their behavior rather than tell them what to do.


I believe something as simple 'outlining consequences' could have been an effective deterrent for a large percentage. Given the sheer number of cut-throughs from one particular camp, it's difficult to believe that anyone 'in charge' bothered to address it at all.

Marck and I are in the same camp and I know his intention leans more towards 'it takes a village' to show others how we can continue to have as friendly a community as possible in BRC. As the title suggests, it's more about manners than policing or dictating.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:11 pm

OK, I thought my first post was clear, but I guess I need to start pointing fingers.
Our village's camps on the Man side of A had reoccurring problems with virgin campers from the REDACTED.

I know this because I had asked all but one asshole, who was ready to get violent when I asked him to turn around and go back, if this was their first burn. All of them, with the exception of that couple replied with yes.

One group didn't realized that we were not part of the REDACTED, many said they were told it was OK to do this.

After putting up a fence, which was torn down nightly, someone even felt it appropriate to take a crap at the borderline of our camp. We ran from 3:30 to about 3:10-3:15. Our only neighbors were a friendly Boston-based bike camp at 03:30, which we invited some of their campers over and did not have issues with, and the REDACTED. It would make more sense that the midnight shitter was from the REDACTED.


Our Village has had problems previous years from another Esplanade Theme Camp who's Mutant vehicle owner/operator felt that he had a right to cut through one of our camps every time he wanted to take his vehicle out because his camp failed to plan for this. Because he continued to do this, other members of his camp felt it was acceptable to ride their bikes through our camp as well despite our requests not to do so.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby curiousgnate » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:20 pm

wow Marck that really does suck. I hate idiots who put themselves first and don't think about what they are doing even when confronted with the fact that what they are doing is not acceptable. I had sparkle ponies who I have now found out sparkled harder then i thought. without my knowing it the had group sex in my yurt without permission, drank my water without permission, and ate some of my food without permission. They took over my personal shade one day when i was at my breaking point and just wanted to be alone, and I had to explain that this was my space, and I needed to be there by myself. They looked at me like I was crazy and continued chatting about how they missed their moms and did their makeup look good. I had to leave and then come back and calmly explain that they needed to get the fuck out of my shade. I don't know if they were even supposed to camp with us but i can assure you next year the screening process will be a bit more difficult for newbies!
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby atomicray » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:38 pm

Is there a serious issue of people who without your prior knowledge or consent stealing your food, water, supplies, and using your tents/campers/RVs/etc.?

I see a few examples as above mentioned but rather than go the alarmist route that seems to be my pattern :shock: I thought I would ask...is this a 01%, 10%, or higher issue?

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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Elderberry » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:47 pm

From my experience, it's a very small percentage, but that small percentage make for interesting anecdotes.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:06 pm

atomicray wrote:Is there a serious issue of people who without your prior knowledge or consent stealing your food, water, supplies, and using your tents/campers/RVs/etc.?

I see a few examples as above mentioned but rather than go the alarmist route that seems to be my pattern :shock: I thought I would ask...is this a 01%, 10%, or higher issue?

Thanks

It *should* be a small percentage, but it seems to be increasing in my experience. Being away from the esplanade camps helps.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby curiousgnate » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:18 pm

i say small percentage as my camp was 100 + and there were only 2, but if you take that and think 50,000 people at 2% that is 1000, so i don't know. I just had the misfortune of being camped next to them (not by my choosing). I could go on and on about them but am so over it at this point. the one thing i will add is my favorite playa sista came with me to a viewing of said sparkle ponies, and I left her there for 5 minutes, after I helped her escape she called my shade Nates personal sparkle pony corral. lets just say i laughed so hard i cried, and then told them to fuck off!
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Galaxo Magic » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:22 am

This was our 2nd year on the Man side of A. We had no walk-throughs, we had no problem neighbors. I think the 3-yurts and rigging plus showers and gennies made it tough to negotiate the back of our space. Still, this was the best year for polite neighbors (in my 11 years). I think it is quieter near Center Camp though. Always seems that way at 3AM.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Cheyenne » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:57 am

Come to think of it,

I remember being a bit blurry eyed on the sunday morning before I went to bed for a while to sober up (around 9am) and out of the corner of my eye, I saw two topless women go into my RV and take some of the (now rationed) freshwater from the kitchen tap.

They went in and straight out again and it was about 5 minutes later that I just noticed they weren't part of our camp. I got up to try and look for them but they had gone... If I had got my hands on them, I would have rung their scrawny little sparkle pony necks..

I'm not sure if our 'when I get trashed all the time I don't give a fuck about anyone but myself' RV mate who said they could do it, or if they just thought they could help themselves to my dwindling water supply

fuckers...
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby This Woman » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:02 am

Marck & Dr J - How awful. Appreciate the additional info and redactions. So they were all virgins, but were they affiliated with theme camps? I think theme camps and villages lend mightily to reducing the asshole factor not only because we do pass on our wisdom, but more importantly, we vet them before we let them in. And I guess this is why I took exception to Marck’s presumption. Vetting is a natural process for any theme camp that takes new members, so my presumption is that a theme camp virgin is probably going to be more informed, more conscientious than an unaffiliated one. After all, they have already committed to work.

On the stealing question, we’ve been robbed by DPW in the past, but I don’t think they do that anymore, and it was an honor. Other than that, we have had a couple skirmishes, rarely, between campmates over stealing food or water, but not from strangers. And I imagine anyone with a motor home amongst those without will have to set rules and make sure they stick.
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby BBadger » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:17 am

It shouldn't even need a theme camp or village for a birgin to act like he/she wasn't born in a damn barn. When my friends and I were birgins, we weren't taken aside by the other campmates like some ill-behaved children, and given some lecture about how we should act in the presence of other human beings. Nor was that expected of any other birgin we encountered in our camp. This isn't even a case of "oh we invite good people" but rather something we should expect of other people.

Sadly, of course, from what I've read here, that is not the case in reality. Maybe it is a case of inviting people who we know are not going to be fuck-ups, birgins or not. Like ill-behaved children, I'd place half the blame on the person who invited those "savage birgins."
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby marck » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:36 pm

BBadger wrote: Like ill-behaved children, I'd place half the blame on the person who invited those "savage birgins."


This is pretty much my point.

However, I'm going to repeat this as it does appear to be getting lost in all my "rant", I'm not saying that boot camping birgins is necessary. I'm saying if the birgins you(non-personal and non-specific pronoun) allowed to camp with you are problems, I feel(meaning my opinion) it is your responsibility to correct/curb their behavior. If you can't/don't want to do this, or even ask them to find another place to camp, then perhaps it would be better for everyone if you don't ask them to join you.

It doesn't have to be some grand utopian ideal, I'm talking about easy, basic, ground rules for your camp mates. Just like rules some people use for housemates, what you expect them to do, who has to do what chores.

Examples of House Rules:
    No smoking inside the house.
    Smokers must empty the outside ashtrays.
    You are responsible for your guests, if they break something that isn't yours, it is up to you to get it fixed.
    Clean up after your guests.
    Clean your dishes, do not leave them in the sink with standing water.
    Ask before eating someone else's food.
    No loud music on weeknights after 23:00.
    Don't leave your clothing in the living room.
    Trash night is on Thursdays.
    Do not have sex in other house mate's rooms with asking first.
    Don't violate the terms of our lease/rental agreement.
    Dealer must hit on a soft 17.
Examples of Camp Rules:
    No Generators.
    No Smoking in certain areas.
    Unless you have asked before hand, do not offer booze or cigarettes that are not yours to others.
    If you intend on walking around camp naked, you must ask before sitting on something that is not yours, or sit on a towel you must provide.
    No open drug use in camp, take it to your personal space if you feel you need it.
    No invasion of other peoples space without asking permission beforehand.
    Try not to piss off our neighbors.
    Do not hit on 17-year-olds.
If they can't agree to your basic rules/expectations, or if they can't adhere to the clearly laid out rules once they get there, then they should find some other group to camp with.

(Thanks Fishy, I fixed it now)
Last edited by marck on Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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theCryptofishist
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:06 pm

marck wrote:No invasion of other peoples space with asking permission beforehand.
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"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
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Snow
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Snow » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:01 pm

We were neighbors to the Hive (on esplanade) as well and we didn't have any problems with them, but the wall of RV camp of brits by us kept using my personal shade area as a backdoor to their camp. Some well placed cooler water (mud), trip lines and bike jumble took care of them for the most part. Having a corner spot on esplanade and 3 meant we had constant people wandering into our private areas. Having strangers in your private area isn't as fun as it sounds. We didn't have people helping themselves to stuff but it has been an issue in the past. Although some random did come to my tent to ask if he could use it to smoke, HELL NO.

We've almost always backed up to TC and once I dressed in camo/guns to infiltrate your barbed wire (rubber) and snuck into the Kantina for a drink with the Kurnel. All this, sadly, went un-noticed as I was hoping to get "caught." I suppose I should have staged a coup. that's a random story but it was fun.
"Art Is Not A Mirror, It Is A Hammer" - Jon Griersam

Bluemandrew
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Bluemandrew » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:12 am

marck wrote: an undeserved sense of self-entitlement.


neighbors to the Hive


If you were from Boston you'd understand why you were better than everyone else too.

Cheyenne
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Re: Some Villages don't teach manners to their burgins

Postby Cheyenne » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:26 am

The invasion of space thing was a problem for me - strangers guitars, practice amps and guitar pedals in our RV... please people, you can use it, but for gods sake, use the outside lockable storage box to the REAR of the van...

Our 'trashed all the time' RV mate brought people back to our van whilst I was trying to sleep during the day. By the end of the week, I was screaming at him to fuck off and get them out of there, he won't remember any of the altercations, as he was pretty much wasted all the time!! Lovely guy when he was sober, but a complete nightmare when he was wasted.
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