A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do I ne

What do you eat and drink on the playa? Share ideas, recipes and advice here.
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Urban
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A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do I ne

Post by Urban » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:04 pm

Papa Urban Says:
August 3rd, 2013 at 4:39 pm
Hi,
At our little camp (4 people), we are going to have some tea and coffee, cookies and sticky buns on one morning, but I will be surprised if we have more than 20-30 eating a cookie or drinking tea or coffee.

It will be more like something we set up for us but we will share once with some random passer-bys. I suspect this health license is not something I certainly have to be concerned with as I couldn’t give away 125 cuos of coffee and tea if I wanted to.

Can you offer any advice?
Papa Urban (Stuart)

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:35 pm

Papa Urban - if you're sharing any food outside of the people in your camp, you need a food permit. Most camps don't need food permits for internal cooking (ie: camps with a community kitchen or community dinners) unless they're over 125 people. Serving (gifting) anything to the public: you need a permit.
(from the JRS 8/1/13)
2013 HEALTH DEPARTMENT PERMITS - FOOD PERMITS

In order to fight the threat of food-borne illness on the playa, the Nevada State Health Division (NSHD) has requirements for camps preparing food including the need of a health permit and an inspection. You must apply for and be permitted as a Temporary Food Establishment by the NSHD if:

* You wish to share, cook or serve food or non-alcoholic beverages to the general Burning Man population (gifting food).

* You will be cooking or serving food to large groups of more than 125* FELLOW CAMPERS of your theme camp on a consistent basis.

(If you have a communal kitchen shared by 125 or more campers, but meals are prepared individually, or in smaller quantities than for 125 persons, a permit is not required, however we highly recommend you research and review safe food handling practices, starting with the Nevada Division of Health information). Here are the permit procedures and deadlines:

If you have already applied for a permit, you should be receiving instructions in the mail soon. If you are planning to make and give away food or drinks to the public on the playa including fresh squeezed juice, coffee with dairy, or even snow cones, you need a permit. Here's the scoop from Cindy Ulch, Supervisor with the Nevada State Health Divisions Environmental Health Program:

The only application any camp needs is the "Food Permit Application for Burning Man" found here: http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS.htm

Look for the flame icon at the bottom of the website for this application and other food safety information and guidelines regarding Burning Man.

DEADLINES:

Via Mail: We must have sufficient time to be able to process the application and send back a letter of confirmation. So they need to be received at Ellen Kunz's office in Winnemucca no later than one week before the event - FRIDAY AUGUST 16th.

Don't wait until the last minute. It would be a shame to have to cancel your plans, or even risk being closed at the event. That mailing address is NSHD - PHCS 475 West Haskell Street Suite 38, Winnemucca, NV 89445.
That said, if, somehow, your camp accidentally makes too much food one morning (and one morning only) and offers it to your neighbors who you've met during the week, you should be fine. If, on the other-hand, you accidentally make too much food & start offering it to random passers-by, and one of those is a health inspector (they are out there), not so good.
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Canoe
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:53 pm

I phoned them last year as I was moving from offering bottles of water and Emergen-C packets to pre-mixed electrolyte out of drink coolers (no alcohol). They said 'Fine, no permit required for beverages you mix. No dairy" I had explained that it was electrolyte drink, so they may have given their answer based on specifically that. This year I see they require permits for "juice from large containers". I'm going to have to check this.

For your intent, excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

Permit required if you're offering coffee and teas if you are offering dairy or soy as part of your service.


NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit.
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.



Food That May Not Be Served and Will Not Be Permitted For Service:
  • Foods from unapproved sources. Hunted meat or game animals, non-
    commercially caught fish. Live or frozen shellfish (oysters, clams, scallops and
    mussels) intended to be consumed raw or undercooked and gathered foods such as
    wild mushrooms. (You may only serve food obtained from permitted food
    establishments such as grocery stores and restaurants.)
  • Previously prepared homemade foods including home canned foods. No foods
    for public consumption may be prepared in a private home. Foods must be
    prepared on-site or be prepared in a permitted commercial establishment.
  • Unpasteurized milk or milk products or unpasteurized juices.
  • Raw or undercooked animal products unless prior approval from NSHD is
    received and a consumer advisory is in place. Live or frozen shellfish (oysters,
    clams, mussels and scallops) may not be served raw or under cooked under any
    circumstances. This is a new requirement for 2013 and no exceptions will be
    granted.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by trilobyte » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:59 pm

What they said. If all you're offering is pre-packaged items (and you're not doing any food handling), no permit required. If you are handling the food (brewing of coffee, making of food, or even opening up packages before handling), license required.

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Canoe
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Canoe wrote:excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit.
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.

Their words.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by trilobyte » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:19 pm

Ah, good to know. I figured that once you got into a situation where dirty hands could be an issue, a permit would be required. In the case of cookies and whatnot, as I said you're okay so long as you're serving unopened packages (so go hit up a warehouse club place or restaurant supply joint and get the big box of single servings, rather than a large/family sized pack of something.

I know that with a small one-off thing you'd probably rather just avoid 'imperial entanglements' altogether, but for what it's worth the health department stuff is fairly painless. This is the third year my camp's gotten a permit. We're not a big food camp or anything, but do a couple occasional food service things throughout the week.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:26 pm

Similar to making coffee, last year I was good to go with mixing water & electrolyte. They had no interest in it, nor was there a requirement for gloves, etc., just the caution to use ice cubes from approved sources. The wording makes me want to confirm with them this year.

With dairy, it's usually an issue of consistent safe storage temperature.
You'd have to phone them about individual serving size UHT milk/creamers that are safe at room temperature.
If they say yes, ask for it in writing?
Last edited by Canoe on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Just_Joe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:29 pm

Hmmm
I wonder (cuz that's what I do).....can milk be part of an exempt alcoholic beverage? If so, and the alcoholic beverage contains coffee, does it then fall back to coffee rules?
:coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

Kahlua and coffee is OK
Kahlua and milk is OK
Kahlua and coffee+milk =?????

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:33 pm

I've been reading the 2013 Nevada food permit info, and prepackaged food is no longer clearly OK to gift like it was in the past. They say that giving samples of prepackaged foods requires a permit. The only exemption I can find is alcoholic beverages.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:35 pm

Just_Joe wrote:...can milk be part of an exempt alcoholic beverage? If so, and the alcoholic beverage contains coffee, does it then fall back to coffee rules?
Can't say for sure for BM, but in every jurisdiction I've had experience with, dairy is food and its storage and handling is regulated.
Look at botulism & milk in the world news.

If you want to have that debate with them on playa, I'd suggest you get your wallet out.
Last edited by Canoe on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:40 pm

CornMan wrote:... They say that giving samples of prepackaged foods requires a permit. The only exemption I can find is alcoholic beverages.
Where? Specifically.
Canoe wrote:excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit
    .
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.

Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:51 pm

Canoe wrote:
CornMan wrote:... They say that giving samples of prepackaged foods requires a permit. The only exemption I can find is alcoholic beverages.
Where? Specifically.
Canoe wrote:excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit
    .
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.

Is that current? Can you post the link?
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:52 pm

"Do I need a temporary food permit for a special event if I am only selling prepackaged foods and I offer samples?
Yes. When samples are offered to the public, a permit is required. Please see the Temporary Event Information page for additional information and fees."

http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS_FAQs.htm

I hope I'm wrong on this one. We shouldn't need regulations and fees for unopened, prepackaged foods that do not require refrigeration.
Last edited by CornMan on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by trilobyte » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:57 pm

A sample of a pre-packaged food, to me, sounds like you're opening the pack and serving samples or portioning things out. I can see them wanting the food handling safety blanket on that. If what you're serving is packaged as single servings, I think there's less of an issue (that's just me guessing, you'd want to contact them directly with specific questions).

In the case of milk... get shelf-stable stuff, like those little Horizon milk cartons. Not only does it solve the permitting requirements, it's a lot easier to manage on the playa.

That said, personally I'd advise any camp serving food just bite the bullet and do the permit thing. It's not hard, and while it does cost a few bucks it's generally chump change compared to the costs of what you're serving or the camp's operations. Once that's out of the way you can focus on yummy things and delicious things to share.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Sham » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:28 am

For single, prepackaged foods, as an example, think about giving out single unopened candies. You would NOT need a permit to pass out packages of Twizzlers, but you would if you handed out single pieces with your filthy, dusty hands.

For the last several years, I picked up trays of individually packed pastries that don't require refrigeration. If I brought pastries from a fancy bakery, and sold in a white box, I would be needing a permit because they are open.

The OP might consider getting individually packaged cookies from a wholesale club and serving those. Then you only have to deal with permitting of coffee and tea. That should be an easy thing.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:48 am

CornMan wrote:"Do I need a temporary food permit for a special event if I am only selling prepackaged foods and I offer samples? Yes. When samples are offered to the public, a permit is required. Please see the Temporary Event Information page for additional information and fees."...
Go and read where they said to. You'll discover:
http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS.htm wrote:Temporary Event Information (Not for Use for Burning Man)
CornMan wrote:Is that current? Can you post the link?
Trilobyte provided the link.
http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS.htm
I provided the name of the document.
And I copied & pasted from it.
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

Had you utilized the information provided, you'd know it was current and you'd have confirmed what was already posted, which includes that:

the rules for Burning Man specifically exempt commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration:
Canoe wrote:excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit
    .
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.

Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:14 am

trilobyte wrote:...In the case of milk... get shelf-stable stuff, like those little Horizon milk cartons. Not only does it solve the permitting requirements, it's a lot easier to manage on the playa...
Good idea for managing on the playa, as it doesn't need to be stored at a cool temperature to be safe, but...
Even though there's a carton size for an individual's single serving of milk, I believe that the UHT (ultra high temperature) milk cartons that Trilobyte mentions would NOT be exempted if you're using them to pour milk or cream into coffee or tea, as you're serving portions from a carton, not "served unopened in single serve size packaging".

Cartons, large & single serving - a carton could become contaminated while handled and then passed around to others...
UHT milk cartons.png
versus

The single serve size milk/creamers that are UHT, hence no refrigeration required, should be allowed under the rules.
The person opening, and potentially contaminating, is the person consuming. The container isn't passed on for others to use.
single serve size UHT creamers.jpg

BUT, both are dairy...

And the rules specify that a permit is required if you're serving coffee & tea with dairy or soy.
But coffee & tea is exempt if using a non-dairy creamer.
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Last edited by Canoe on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Canoe » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:19 am

.
Do remember that ePlaya is NOT the authority on this.

Call "Public Health and Clinical Services - Environmental Health, Winnemucca (775) 623-6588.

When I called last year, they were very helpful and
very happy that I was finding out before I got to the playa. If you're already on the playa, it is too late if you need a permit.
BurningMan_TemporaryFoodServiceInformationandGuidelines.pdf wrote:We do not accept applications or issue late or unpermitted booth permits on the playa.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 am

Canoe wrote:
CornMan wrote:"Do I need a temporary food permit for a special event if I am only selling prepackaged foods and I offer samples? Yes. When samples are offered to the public, a permit is required. Please see the Temporary Event Information page for additional information and fees."...
Go and read where they said to. You'll discover:
http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS.htm wrote:Temporary Event Information (Not for Use for Burning Man)
CornMan wrote:Is that current? Can you post the link?
Trilobyte provided the link.
http://health.nv.gov/BFHS_EHS.htm
I provided the name of the document.
And I copied & pasted from it.
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

Had you utilized the information provided, you'd know it was current and you'd have confirmed what was already posted, which includes that:

the rules for Burning Man specifically exempt commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration:
Canoe wrote:excerpts from:
BurningMan_FoodSafetyRequirements.pdf

NSHD does NOT require permits for, or regulate those who wish to share,
prepare, or serve the following exempted items:
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Foods that are commercially pre-packaged and served unopened in single
    serve size packaging not requiring refrigeration
    . Examples of these foods
    include unopened packages of candy, single serve sized bags of chips,
    pretzels, bars, cookies, cans of soda, bottled water, whole un-cut fruit
    .
  • Popcorn, cotton candy, coffee or tea with non-dairy creamer.

Don't be getting on my case because we need to be sure about this one. Good advice about calling them. The downside about the individually wrapped exemption would be the MOOP factor.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by trilobyte » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:03 am

Take a couple deep breaths, guys. I know it can be frustrating when the information's there or has been posted before and someone missed it, but everyone's trying to either do the right thing or be helpful.

Yes, individually packaged is MOOPier. You can either plan to deal with that, or just get a permit.

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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:04 am

Will no one think of the children MOOP!
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:06 am

Japanese rice candy could be a good candidate for individually wrapped treats. If somebody wants to eat the wrapper, that's their business.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:10 am

The inner wrapper. But there's always the outer one...
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by CornMan » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:13 am

At Plug and Ply, we're going to hire a full crew to unwrap all those outer wrappers. We'll give a 15% bonus to the crew member who fills the highest unwrapping quota.
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Re: A small little camp with cookies and tea and coffee. Do

Post by Ratty » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:52 am

I hand out candy several times a week. Moop is NO PROBLEM. I take their wrapper on the spot. Those little creamers would be opened and disposed of on site. Nobody is going to walk off with them. Open, pour into drink, put empty in bin. Not a moop problem.
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