R.V. VS. Tenting it....

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:05 pm

so many generalizations, so little time.

On both sides of the issue, I might add.

Most of which, as a first premise, assume I am an unprepared asshole. I resent that.

Are you referring to this thread or some other conversation you've had in the past? The only thing I can find in this thread saying anything like that are Bob's mention of pump trucks, which of course not every RVer uses.

Clayboy asked for an opinion along with pluses/minuses of each option. I gave my opinion, as did Bob. I will continue to give it whenever someone asks. I find it funny how defensive people get whenever anyone says anything remotely anti-RV. Bring whatever you want, I don't care. Feel free to bring the satellite dish and spend all day watching HBO like my neighbor did last year. Feel free to bring the RV but only use it to sleep in and for shelter during really bad storms. I got a small amount of shit from people for bringing ice cream last year (mostly from people who weren't around to get any or didn't like the kind I brought) and I don't care. I like ice cream, so I'm going to use some of my budget and cargo space to assure I have enough to last the week. If you want to bring an RV, bring an RV. It really is that simple.

I stand by my opinion that newbies shouldn't bring RVs. Once you've experienced the environment fully, you can make an educated decision. I say this not because I think those who bring RVers are bad people or because they aren't "real" burners, I say it because I think leaving the RV at home gives them a better chance of fully experiencing the environment and the shared struggle to deal with it. If you don't care about that aspect, don't. What freakin ever.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:22 pm

Wow! The politics, the emotions!! Over whether or not to bring an RV?? "Do what you WILL shall be the whole of the Law..." Crowley

It seems to me that what is happening to Burning Man is the same thing that happened to Primitive Christianity... actually Primitive Anything... The Lawmakers (ie:the arbiters of behavior) are taking over. Yes, you can do this, No, you can't do that, and, of course, you must do this!!

But, it's not that Ba-a-aa-aah-ad. I mean, it's just ba-a-a-a-a-sic human conditioning. It shouldn't bo-o-o-a-ah-ah-... uh, bother us.

It's not like we need to be lead about like sheep, or something.

Sam

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:27 pm

Ha, being a newbie is what makes me want to have an rv- I'd rather rv the first time and then tent after I check it out and get an understanding of the whole thing. I live in wet mountains and have never been to the desert, so an rv gives me a bit more leeway to learn how to survive there. And I can't imagine how else I would get everything I want to bring there.

Also, with potential (likely) dust storms, and at a place where, knowing myself, I am going to get very overstimulated very quickly and will need a place to escape to, an rv sounds great.

The 3 day party I go to here- shambhala, August 13-16, if you are interested in checking it out- in my group of friends we have tents (I'm in one), buses, vans, and rvs (well just one usually, whoever is the big spender that year). They are all great and they all have their purpose. I love the rvs and buses for their extra comfy beds, their supply of classy glassy stemware and delicous martinis. A tent is easy here- it's close to home and there's no border to cross, so it's easy to toss everything in the back of the truck, tie it down, and drive there. I wouldn't try to cross the border that way.

I agree with the previous poster about isolation- it's your attitute that isolates you, not your home. If you think I'm not 'burning' enough if I'm in an rv, I don't care.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:32 pm

Personally, I'm on the anti-RV side. They make the city look like a fucking suburb- they're hardly ever decorated, just sitting in row after row. They make the city much more closed in and claustraphobic, as Bob said; I'd much prefer the beat-up blue tarps, myself. I'm not a puritan about it- if you've got health problems or something, go ahead and bring one.

A lot of my reasons are more subjective. Most of our lives, we live in boxes. We leave the box where we live by means of getting in a smaller box and moving it to the box where we work. Sometimes we drive the small box to a box where we're entertained. In her wonderful book Always Coming Home, Ursula LeGuin describes this as "living outside the world". We're almost completely cut off from the actual planet, living in our artificial environments all the time. On the playa, one of the greatest things (to me) at least, is being in the world again. Yes, our city is completely unnatural, but we're under the sky, we feel the wind, the heat, the cold, there's dirt under our feet instead of pavement. Bringing an RV is just bringing another box, with all the conveniences if it gets to uncomfortable outside.

Also, I think the harsh environment is part of the magic of the event. You have to pay attention in ways you don't back at home. The fact that it's more extreme, dangerous even, in contrast to the wondrous sights and sounds around you makes it all that much more worthwhile. And the shared experience of difficulty is one of the things that creates the bonds between Burners, in my opinion. I think this is the underlying thought behind the claims that RV's are bad for community - it's so easy to simply escape from difficult conditions, and creates this instant divide between people who had boxes to hide in and those who didn't.

Yes you still need shelter and all that. If you want something more than a tent, be creative. Build something. Your unique structure can be as much a contribution to the event as any wacky costume, even if most people never come into it. Hell, I could go into a whole 'nother tangent about the importance of architecture and a city's character, but let those interested pursue that line of thought.

And yes, I've ducked into campers during horrible duststorms etc. I just think BRC would be a better place without so many of them. And I really do recommend that first-timers forgo the RV and "rough it" they're first year, then decide for themselves.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:23 pm

Sometimes we drive the small box

does this mean that if I live in an A-frame house, drive a VW beetle to work and my workspace is a converted aircraft hanger that I am under moral mandate to take an RV to burning man to broaden my life experience irt geometry?

I don't decorate my RV because it is hiding behind my 60'x12' art installation. I find the construction of the latter to be far more of a contribution than pithily altering the logo on my rental.

I do find someone who goes to burningman and spends their whole time wathcing satellite television to be an asshole. I respect their right to do it. Perhaps it's a piece of perfomance art that they got a grant for. Anyway, once again, I resent the thinly veiled implication.

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:31 pm

Er, yeah, it would probably be better if there were no rv's there at all, I agree. hahaha.

Roughing it in the desert is something foreign to me. Toss me in the woods with some rivers, wild animals, and a snow storm I'm happy to rough it. I don't really understand the desert and it would be nice if there was a beautiful river meandering through the centre of BRC, but then it wouldn't be the desert would it? However, I am very excited to go to the desert and check out it's wacky moonscape landscape.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:58 pm

stuart wrote:I find the sight of falling apart, poorly built shade with noisily flapping cheap, ripped up, blue tarps to be more of an assault on my senses.

Those readily available cheap blue polysomethline tarps DONT stand up to UV light and when they deteriorate they shread into something super moopy. Probably okay for a week or two, but any length of time and it's over. Do yourself a favor, but a desent tarp.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:59 pm

Whoops.
Meant: Buy a DESCENT tarp.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:14 pm

Stuart, please give it a rest. You react to every opinion contrary to how you choose to burn as if it were a personal insult directed at you then often follow up with blanket insults of non-RVers. My neighbor DID have a satellite dish that went up right after they parked and got adjusted a few times as the wind moved it. I was offering them as an extreme example of RV-insulation, not as an example of how all people in RVs are evil. Just as you offered an extreme example of isolated tent-campers.

Are you implying that because my artwork is not 60 feet long that I'm not contributing enough?

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:24 pm

stuart wrote:

does this mean that if I live in an A-frame house, drive a VW beetle to work and my workspace is a converted aircraft hanger that I am under moral mandate to take an RV to burning man to broaden my life experience irt geometry?
Nope. Boxes come in all shapes. As long as you're enclosed on all sides, it's the same.

I don't decorate my RV because it is hiding behind my 60'x12' art installation. I find the construction of the latter to be far more of a contribution than pithily altering the logo on my rental.

I expect that's true. I also expect that you know you are an exception to the phenonmenon Bob and I were kvetching about.

C'mon dude, we're agreeing with each other so often on the rest of the board I was begining to think we should take turns posting on alternate days. I'm a bit relieved we differ on something.

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:28 pm

Dork wrote:Stuart, please give it a rest. You react to every opinion contrary to how you choose to burn as if it were a personal insult directed at you then often follow up with blanket insults of non-RVers.

I don't know, Stuart's posts don't seem to be insults to non Rv'ers any more that your posts insult Rvers. Some people set up shity shade structures and some people set up great shade structures and camps. Some Rv'ers live inside the mobile home with HBO and some build giant art projects run piss clear or work for the Rangers or DPW.

What bothers me about your post Dork is

Dork wrote: I say it because I think leaving the RV at home gives them a better chance of fully experiencing the environment and the shared struggle to deal with it. If you don't care about that aspect, don't. What freakin ever.

You say try tenting first, I agree with the other poster, try RVing first. (I don’t' suggest using built in toilets, or showers, or Air conditioning, or turning on a TV inside of one) I'm bringing a tent also and may sleep in it a few nights. After fully experiencing it the first year I may decide not to bring a RV next year.

Whether I sleep in a tent or RV, and that is all I am going to do in it, is not going to change my experience. Well ok I may get more sleep, I won’t wake up with my back in knots, and may miss the joy of some drunk falling on my tent when I’m a sleep, has happened to me in the past. But will any of these things change my core experience? I don’t think so.

Now I know some RVers will do more than just that in their RVs and maybe you are right that will alter/ ruin there experience, but you are applying that generalization to all RVer's and I think that is insulting to RV'ers.

We all have our opinions, My camper is part of my self expression for burning man, Stuart is pro RV's you dislike them, and I think Bob just likes a good argument. All are valid opinions.

Anyone reading this lively discussion now has plenty on info and opinions both pro and con and that is the beauty of eplaya .

Sorry to be so long winded but absolute statements of any kind drive me crazy.

Bob A

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon May 10, 2004 6:10 pm

I admit I react rather violently to the 'if you go in an RV you won't see the event' verbage. I also tend to react extremely to other sweeping negative generalizations about other activities I indulge in. I sometimes even react negatively to sweeping generalizations that don't encompass me as a matter of principal. Mea Culpa. There will be no resting.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Mon May 10, 2004 6:14 pm

absolute statements of any kind drive me crazy.

Which statements of mine do you feel are absolute? Which of my posts are globally insulting RVers? If I come across that way, I apologize.

What bothers me about your post Dork is

Why does my opinion bother you? I certainly understand why you would disagree, but why does it actually bother you to read it? That's what has confused me the most about this thread. Perhaps it's that RVers are tired of defending their position all the time and just don't want to hear it anymore? I don't know.

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:00 pm

Dork wrote:Which statements of mine do you feel are absolute? Which of my posts are globally insulting RVers? If I come across that way, I apologize.

Well your first post is pretty absolute.

Dork wrote:If it's your first time and you have no health problems that require it, forget the RV. It isolates you and removes you from the shared experience of dealing with the environment with those around you. Plus.

You say that all RVs will isolate you and remove you from the shared experience, basically calling anyone in a trailer a Spectator or tourist. There is no wiggle room, no allowing for the possibility that someone can be a productive member of the society if they are in a RV. There is no allowance for who is actually in the RV and their personality type. I wouldn't say you are globally insulting RVers but you are lumping all together creating a stereo type. Aha ha! That’s my problem, the stereo type, I resent stereo typing of people. Granted stereo types exist because there are some people who match them and live them, but the whole group gets to wear the logo. It’s like saying all burners are hippies or drugies, some may be but that is not the group as a whole.

Dork wrote:If you've been a few times and clearly established that you're not just a tourist, then you're socially allowed to bring a RV.

This line bugged me and I think set me off in the beginning. Who decides when I'm allowed at what level do I need to establish myself before I am allowed. Larry H. is allowed to have one and me as the new burner will be ostracized for bring one. What is the level I cross over to the allowed group.

Dork wrote:Why does my opinion bother you? I certainly understand why you would disagree, but why does it actually bother you to read it? That's what has confused me the most about this thread. Perhaps it's that RVers are tired of defending their position all the time and just don't want to hear it anymore? I don't know.

Your opinion doesn't bother me, the stereo type does. You don't like RV's and they are not right for you. You have some valid reasons why and people should take them as a caution not to fall in the trap of becoming the stereo type. Most of what I said was to offer my opinion. I don't feel I'm defending my position as much as offering the other view point. I didn't want someone to think they will be stoned and treated badly if they just come in a RV. If they become the stereo type then they will get some shit.

I've got my pet peeves too, people that run their generators all the time. I've read a lot about how evil they are. So I've made a point of creating a solution that will not require one. OR at least a solution that will require me to run one very rarely, time will tell.

So my caution to people who are considering the RV is don't fall into the Stereo type.

Dork, I actually have found this thread very enjoyable and it was aggressive threads like this that have helped me plan for and fall in love with burning man. There is no candy coated shit around here.

Bob A

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:34 pm

You say that all RVs will isolate you and remove you from the shared experience, basically calling anyone in a trailer a Spectator or tourist. There is no wiggle room, no allowing for the possibility that someone can be a productive member of the society if they are in a RV. There is no allowance for who is actually in the RV and their personality type. I wouldn't say you are globally insulting RVers but you are lumping all together creating a stereo type.

That's a pretty huge stretch. I said nothing about the people who bring RVs. I am only commenting on the RV itself as a camping method. That "tourist" sentence in my first reply was an unfortunate bit of wording. Sorry about that. I guess what I was trying to suggest is that you'll get shit from people at the event if you're a first timer without a big project and you come in an RV, but if you've been around a while and are clearly contributing, you'll get less shit. This is not a personal judgement on my part, just my impression of other peoples' reactions at the event. I get shit sometimes for various transgressions like ice cream and wearing "normal" clothes, but after talking to them when they've decided I'm not just a weekend tourist they seem to not have a problem with it. I imagine RVs have the same sort of stigma, raised up an order of magnitude or two. If you don't care about getting shit or people looking at you like you aren't burning properly, then it's not something to worry about.

RVs are by design insulating. They protect you from harsh environments, keep you from having to do grunt work like set up tents, unpack and arrange cooking gear in a difficult environments, hike out in search of porta-potties, shower outside where someone might see you naked and they keep the dust out of your stuff. When the weather is uncomfortable (which is it a good portion of the day) the temptation is great to just jump inside and wait it out or sit in the attached shade on the side instead of building something. You and many others are able to overcome this temptation and stay out of the RV, but that does not mean that the temptation does not exist. I have seen a number of burners fail to resist the lure of air conditioning. I see that temptation as a possible barrier for newbies to get the full experience. A barrier that can be overcome, but a barrier nonetheless.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Mon May 10, 2004 8:04 pm

My RV is what made it possible to be at BM in '02. I suffered an eye injury (while working on an art project for BM) a week before the event, couldn't stand heavy dust or exposure to light at all. I slept with foil over the windows and the air on during the day, came out at night as much as I could.
Like Stuart, I park in the back of a big theme camp installation, and don't use the suck-truck.
As much as I like to bring the rig, KellY said some of the best things on this thread

Also, I think the harsh environment is part of the magic of the event. You have to pay attention in ways you don't back at home. The fact that it's more extreme, dangerous even, in contrast to the wondrous sights and sounds around you makes it all that much more worthwhile. And the shared experience of difficulty is one of the things that creates the bonds between Burners,

There's something to that...
However (KellY) you've already got an outer playa art installation tour aboard the 'Cruiser if you stop by, how about also an invite for you (+wife) to have a midday nap in the freezin' cold queen bed in the Goddammit-Rig?
This isn't a bribe to bring you to the "pro-RV" side but just a "gift" from the "pro" side... I think both can co-exist in a big place like BRC
Come on, sin a little...

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:56 am

that does not mean that the temptation does not exist

I will admit the temptation of the quiet cozy RV. For some off reason it does not hit me during the heat of the day. I get nailed by it late at night. I will be out at, say, 2-4 a.m. and find I need to restock water. I get on my bike and trek back to camp to refill my bougiosie <sp?> camelback. The water is in the R.V.. After I pull off my shoes, shed some other dusty gear, and climb up those stairs I am starting to unwind. At this point I know if I thunk down on the couch I am done for the night despite my best intentions. Sometimes a partner can save you, sometimes the partner is the instigator of the premature R.V. crash.

I learned my lesson by '03 and started stashing night-time refueling supplies out in the shade structure to avoid the R.V. late night siren song.

Godammit (not the capt) my camp needs more adequate outdoor late night chill space!

missmann · Post by **missmann** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:59 am

Our group is considering renting an RV- theres probably 10 of us though, so it would be like the luxury suite which we would take turns in... we thought that having access to refrigeration and airconditioning and a shower would be nice.... but I don't know that it has been decided yet coz we haven't really figured our our fuel costs yet (gas is bloody expensive now, and its not even may long weekend yet). the company we would be renting from said it would be like renting two minivans but I'm sceptical... anyone have any insight on how good the beasts are on gas, especially in the mountains?
Charity

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:11 am

You might look into renting cargo vans. They can be modified to be pretty comfy, are a hell of a lot cheaper to rent and operate, are not as ugly, are easier to decorate and most importantly are way easier to clean out for return to the rental company. This is not a trivial consieration, either in terms of expense or effort.

The drawback of course is that you don't have the creature comforts you wanted. And since I like to be all sanctimonius and stuff I will say that I think it enlarges life to do without some of the things we take for granted the other 51 weeks. YMMV and if you invite me into an RV for a martini I will say "yes" because standards are best observed in the breech, at least sometimes.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:16 am

they will suck gas down like, well, like a really big fuel inefficient beast. I think your plan of sharing and rotating might be trouble. One of the things about the climate is that your body adjusts over time. Also, where does all of your gear get stored? The fridge is super awesome to have but with 10 people trying to use it it might be more of a problem. Generally, the RV propane fridges do not cool down quickly so if you have 10 folks hitting it all the time you might render it useless. Also, with 10 folks, you can NEVER use the toilet. Hmm...

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:40 pm

use a tent for simplicity... if you want all the comforts of home... stay there.

zorro sings · Post by **zorro sings** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:32 pm

Have been following this thread and thought I would throw my experience in to the mix.When I first attended BM some years ago my almost immediate impression was in order to do this right I needed a theme camp and an RV.I was half right.The theme camp remains an utter joy.Nothing like having the entertainment coming to you.The RV was a nightmare.
We had 6 of us to subsidize the pretty heavy cost and that was when gas was under a $.Yours truly put the security deposit down but that was a mistake I did not realize until later.First off thanks to a couple of prima donnas who took home style showers we ran out of water in 3 days.This left a moldering pile of dishes in the sink and a turd in the toilet that started to stink as the week went on.Everytime we opened the door dust would get in especially when"accidentaly"left open for hours at a time with just the screen door as protection.One time someone left a window open leaving a pile of dust that a whirling diverish would feel at home in.Drugs and alcohol resulted in a number of seemingly minor prangs and one guy insisted in smoking(warned not to by renters) whilst in the beast.However that was not the worst of it.No,the lingering almost searing memory of this misbegotten scheme is that of driving it home with a full tank of shit and piss making its pungent aroma doubly present everytime we hit a bump in the road.As no one brought any money(they said)we were unable to get the tanks drained while on the playa.
To add insult to injury my cleaning deposit of $500 was forfeited despite spending another $100 to have it cleaned.I would never,ever think of doing this again.A fan,a $5 salvation army sleep away couch and the truck we rent to bring our gear is my home now and I like it.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:46 pm

Eeeek what a nightmare! The above stuff gave me a thought though...is the divide not RVs themselves but the difference between bringing one's own camper/trailer/motorhome (and dealing with all its needs yearround) and renting a pristine unit that comes to the playa all squeaky clean?

Hah, at least the playa makes sure it doesn't leave that way.

KellY · Post by **KellY** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:21 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:how about also an invite for you (+wife) to have a midday nap in the freezin' cold queen bed in the Goddammit-Rig?
This isn't a bribe to bring you to the "pro-RV" side but just a "gift" from the "pro" side... I think both can co-exist in a big place like BRC
Come on, sin a little...

Why thank you, Cap'n, we may take you up on that. I'm diefintiely not a puritan...

In the interests of full disclosure, I have to say that my wife doesn't like tent camping one bit and totally wants to have a trailer or something (not an actual RV though). She likes to have some place to retreat to, while to me the tent is only a place to sleep and change clothes. It should be noted that we're out there three to four weeks, which definitely does skew the tent vs. other shelter thing.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:23 pm

That's a common issue -- first-time RVers and camp followers who treat it like a frat house. Besides pestering the septic service contractors, they're also some of the most likely to slosh shit all over the exit road when they hit a bump, and to stop along the highway & dump stanky wet garbage sacks because the only place to stow it is in the passenger compartment or tied on the top with a couple of loose bungie cords.

But while plenty of people are happy to give advice on tents, domes, and turning Razor scooters into Chariots Of The Freakin Gods, few if any are going to stop and help you with an overflowing waste tank -- they'll more likely tell you to complain to somebody like me.

Get in line, pilgrim.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:29 pm

Tiahaar, you're exactly right. Zorro's bad experience was due to misuse of the rig by people who either didn't know or didn't care about it. I think most of the people with bad-trip horror stories are people who are unfamiliar with the care and feeding of an RV.
I have looked into renting cargo vans, costs about as much! They are a lot easier to clean though. They're a good way to haul lots of stuff if you don't have a big truck, but they make shitty RVs.
Clayboy says he's gonna borrow his folk's RV. (are you still here, Clizzy Bizzy?) Clay, make sure you know all about operating a motorhome, and don't let it become a mosh-pit - people will trash it without knowing any better. It sounds crummy, but lock the door whenever you're out of it - people will try to "help" with the dishes and leave the water running, oblivious to the fact that you have a limited supply, or etc. etc.
I can hardy jizz enough about having a fridge.
I'd advise anyone considering the at least $2000 RV rental to look into buying your own older camper or trailer. You will know how to use it and it'll be more "Play-able".

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:13 pm

For my first Burn I was visiting relatives in CA and one of my aunts said, "Oh why don't you just take the motorhome." 35 feet+, solar on the roof and a windmill, also very clean and their pride and joy. Thanks, no. Now if my cousin had offered his class C that looked like he had been raising monkeys in it I probably would have accepted. At 49 then and 51 now I try to look for the easy way. For me it was a rental truck, a tent and a lot of stuff that I gave away.

I was thinking about driving out this year but will probably fly and try and "borrow" one one my relative's van or pick-up for couple of hundred for the week. If John's class 3 still runs I might be showing up with an RV but mainly to haul stuff and I know some people who will need a ride from Reno. I will probably still sleep in the tent and use the potties.

idiotekniQues · Post by **idiotekniQues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:22 am

the way we are thinkin about rentin an RV for our first time is not to isolate but to make things better. First off we will all have our 2 man tents with us, plus stake out a large shad space tent as well. The RV will be used for a/c sleeping in the day, i remember last year at coachella it was almost impossible to sleep once the desert sun came up, and after days of being in the desert I think we'll have MORE energy to see more of BM if we get some good rest, thus isolating us less rather than more. I think you gotta be careful, cover the inside up and keep traffic in and out to a minimum but I think if you do it right you may actually be more interactive than isolated, mainly cause of a few nice sessions of uninterrupted sleep.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:32 am

a few nice sessions of uninterrupted sleep.

Bwwwhahahahahaha..... yeah, let me know if you snag some of that.

idiotekniQues · Post by **idiotekniQues** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:00 am

Badger wrote:
a few nice sessions of uninterrupted sleep.

Bwwwhahahahahaha..... yeah, let me know if you snag some of that.

it's worth a shot. a sleepin pill, some earplugs, and an air conditioned RV is my only hope.