Shade cloth? Camo netting? Sail cloth? Used diapers????

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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'stine
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Postby 'stine » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:58 am

artificial turf?

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Last Real Burner
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Surf and Turf the Universe...

Postby Last Real Burner » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:28 pm

'stine wrote:artificial turf?

I think they say that's bad stuff because it comes apart and becomes MOOP.


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BAS
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Postby BAS » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:40 pm

I also wonder about vinyl underfoot if/when it rains.....

Hey, if you've got family in Baraboo, have you visited The Forevertron? I was planning on stopping there on my way to BRC and would love an update!


Hmmm..., I wonder if it is any slicker than a regular tent floor? I guess I will find out when I get the stuff. (Which reminds me, I'd better e-mail them back).

I pass by the location of The Forevertron every time I head up to Baraboo. It used to be more visible from the road, and I even stopped by there with some guys some time around 1985 and we poked around the thing. (IIRC, one or two of the others climbed around on it a bit. I didn't, becuase I didn't think it looked safe. I don't recall why the artist wasn't around at that time-- I think he might have been in prison or some such thing.)

I keep thinking I should stop and look around at more of the sculptures, since there were only a few when I was there, and there wasn't any landscaping. (In fact, I think that Delaney's Surplus might have had a couple, ancient, junked cars stored there. 1940's vintage. OTOH, the cars might have been worth something, and might not have been Delaney's.) These days, The Forevertron area actually looks reasonabley nice, and even Delaney's Surplus is looking like a respectable business (whether or not Delaney's is respectable is another matter.)

Delaney's Surplus, which is next door to The Forevertron, now that I have been reminded, might be an interesting place to find stuff at. When I was a kid, and my dad had a part time plastics forming business nearby, it was fun to go into D.S. and see what sort of junk had shown up. Model rocketry stuff, clock radio's, lamps, even occasional food stuff (although D.S. didn't have refigeration...) would show up on the shelves, piled on the floor, or wherever in the store. My dad got some good deals on things like a drill press, multiband radio, and light meter there.

When I last stopped by there, in the late 1980s I think, Delaney's seemed to have scaled things back a bit, and the selection wasn't as wide or weird. I don't even know if Delaney is still running the outfit. (He may have gotten into too much trouble for handling stolen goods, or simply scaled back due to age and health.)

Across from Delaney's and the Forevertron is the now defunct Bager Army Ammunitions Plant. At one time it was the largest ammunitions plant in the world. Now it has been shut down due to the end of the Cold War and the fact that it would probably have to be completely rebuilt in order to be modernized. I don't know if they give tours anymore (probably not, since the Olin Corportation has pretty much left with the Army). Bonus points to anyone who paints the twin tanks in front of the plant interesting colors... (I'd say paint one power pink and one powder blue, but that's just the first thing which popped into my head when the appeared in the early 1990s.)

Hmmm. Up north past Baraboo is the Ho Chunk Casino. I've never been in there, since gambling really doesn't interest me. It draws quite a crowd, though.

Past Ho Chunk is the Wisconsin Dells/Lake Delton area. These days they have a ton of water parks, a fair number of which are now indoors and no longer weather dependant. I haven't been in any of them since I worked a summer as a grounds cleaner in Family Land in the mid-1980s. That was before any of them were indoors, and they have all changed considerably since then.

FWIW, I suppose I should clarify that actually my parents live in West Baraboo, which is where K-Mart, Wal-Mart, and the other 'marts are located these days. (I've heard a Home Depot and/or Menards is going in somewhere in that area, or maybe it is a Farm & Fleet. For some reason all of the big box stores are flocking into West Baraboo, and I have no idea what it is doing to the local economy. Actually, that whole area is changing enough that I am going to have a hard time recognizing it in a few years.... :? )
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bullD
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Postby bullD » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:45 am

So, not taking into account ambient temp's, which material works better for direct sunlight/temp control, silver poly tarp or treated canvas tarp?

Oreally?
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Aluminet=Cool

Postby Oreally? » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:22 pm

Last year we covered our dome with the following and it was at least 15 degrees cooler (okay, at least it felt like it was)

Top of dome arch:Double ply silver tarps, cut in triangle pattern and attached around a center circle for top ventilation.
Skirt of aluminet: Aluminet can be kind of expensive, so we wanted to use it as ventilation only.

My only recommendations would be, if you are so anal and want to keep out as much dust as possible, add a sheet of cotton muslin or old bedsheets behind the aluminet to help act as a dust filter. You may think it's possible...
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Bob
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Postby Bob » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm

bullD wrote:So, not taking into account ambient temp's, which material works better for direct sunlight/temp control, silver poly tarp or treated canvas tarp?


Cheap tequila & lite beer, in my experience.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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bullD
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Postby bullD » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:04 am

Thanks oreally and bob. Silver tarps seem the best to me so I was wondering if anybody had a different experience. And yes bob tequila and lite beer will be a part of the plan :lol: .

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Postby robotland » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:16 am

I would call Heavy Silver Tarp "industry standard" for quality OPAQUE shade. Any lightweight tarps will likely lose grommets, "weave out", fly away, or find some new and interesting way to disappoint you. Green tarp in small sections is kinda pleasant, but not far from BLUE, which will FRY YOU and THEN fall apart.
I'd like to play with the reinforced plastic sheeting that is designed for construction sites- It's two layers with thin nylon cord in a square weave sandwiched between, and comes in black (no!), clear (probably not!), and WHITE. Downside being that I can only find it in contractor-size rolls for at least a hundred bucks.
Also on the wish list- The "add-a-doorway" plastic zipper with adhesive tape that you slap onto plastic or tarps and then slit open....Playa heat does weird things to tape, but I'd love to play with that stuff....
One way that lighter-weight tarp could be used is UNDER heavy mesh truck tarp- I covered my 3-level Snowman Dome with cheapo tarps for the winter, and added truck mesh over top to stop the cheapies from flapping, and it worked very well. I could roll up the lightweight stuff without having to secure it, as long as the mesh was battened down over top!
A fortunate flea market discovery: "Gorilla Tape"- It's flat nylon web, about 1/2" wide, that you use like rope but that LITERALLY holds a ton and is easier to unknot than round line.
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bullD
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Postby bullD » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:31 am

Thanks, Robotland. The truck mesh idea is great!

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pokiedot
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my aluminet is here!

Postby pokiedot » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:34 pm

in this thread, and in a few others, there has been mention of aluminet. no one seams to have much experience with it, but from it's descriptions it seems promising, although expensive. for those of you who care...

my aluminet came today, and i thought i'd share my observations thus far. i ordered 322 sq ft, which cost me about $113 including shipping. pretty ouchy, i know.

my first shock upon opening my box is that the aluminet isn't like regular shade netting at all. i have some shade cloth from a few years ago, and the weave is much like that of window screen, only cloth-like. (this shade netting really only made things hotter and we hated it. boo for shade netting.)

i then panicked a little, because i somehow failed to absorb from the product description that it is made of mylar. it looks like christmas tree tinsle weaved into little 1 cm rows. just the sight of a tinsle like material made my moop-o-meter go off. yikes!

and then i panicked a little more. the aluminet is very light (in weight) and seemed a little flimsy at first glance.

so i felt the need to abuse it a little. i yanked and pulled and mauled a piece of it and it actually seems much sturdier than i first thought. it does make a bit of moop when you cut it, but once cut, as far as i can tell so far, it's not leaking tinsly bits or anything.

one disappointment is that i don't think one could sew it. i will have to devise some other adhesive techniques.

my next tast is to see it in action. as soon as i have this stupid cast off my stupid leg (only 2 more weeks!), i'll be building our small dome and experiementing with it further. eeeh.. i'm a geek for this kind of stuff, so i'll probably feel inclined ot update again with my findings.

you know you're a burner when you'd rather be a connesuir of shade cloth than of the latest fashions.

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Tarp tethers?

Postby Otisserie » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:12 am

Tarp tethers: I just got a 12 x 12 heavy silver tarp to put over my tent and I was wondering the best way to tie it to the rebar stakes on the playa. Is is better to use some nylon cord and try and stretch it tight, or would it be better to incorporate some bungies so the ties have some give in a strong wind?

I also got some tarp tape with the idea of adding slits to let the wind out. How many and how large should I make them?

Tarp Newbie

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Postby robotland » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:35 am

From my personal experience I have found that a SLIT in a tarp can make a buzzing sound that will quickly prey on your sanity....make a flap, or install a mesh porthole (!) or simply layer smaller tarps. The problem with bungees is that if the tarp can flex it will wear away the silver anywhere that it touches the structure. I use zipties for all connections, supplementing with spring clamps and/or tarp clips for sections that might get adjusted and for during setup.
I made all custom tarps for our dome last year, cutting silver tarp and "hemming" it with tarp tape- If you can manage it, HEAT the tape after application with a propane torch (keep it moving!) or heat gun to activate the adhesive. At least tape outside on a sunny day- If both tape and tarp are warm your results will be superior. I found some great duct tape at a surplus store- Shiny silver, and about five inches wide...works well, but needs to stay in the shade and once playadust hits it, it's done....To my great disappointment I discovered that the grommets I used were brass COLORED, not actually brass, and they @##!! rusted from Playa exposure- it pays to use aluminum or REAL brass.

Hey Pokie- thanks for the observations on Aluminet! I've been curious about it for some time..... I hope your two weeks go by quickly.
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Desi Arnaz
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Kee Klamps

Postby Desi Arnaz » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:01 am

For several years now I've brought a structure based on Kee Klamps...

http://www.keeklamp.com/

We basically make an awning using these fittings and 3/4" iron pipe. Bungee a silver tarp onto the top, cover the sides with 60% shade cloth panels. Easy to transport and assemble. The frame looks sort of like this...

Image

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Postby robotland » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:00 am

Hauling those terracotta pots out to the Playa must be a real pain in the ass.
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Bob
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Postby Bob » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:24 am

bullD -- Jackson's in S.Rafael, and the truck supply place at Lincoln & Irwin, had truck tarp last time I checked, but it could be ordered from rigging outlets eg Feeney in Oakland or Carpenter in SF. The Cafe shade is from http://www.igcusa.com/, AFAIK. Pretty close to August to depend on turnaround time for oddball orders eg white shade cloth, though.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby Tancorix » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:35 pm

Desi, Where did you find the Kee Klamps in the US? And are they expensive? If the pricing was right I saw the answers to about 4 major projects in there!

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How many?

Postby Otisserie » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:31 pm

robotland wrote:From my personal experience I have found that a SLIT in a tarp can make a buzzing sound that will quickly prey on your sanity....make a flap, or install a mesh porthole (!) or simply layer smaller tarps.


Thanks for the info. I'll definitely make sure I cut a wide enough wind slot so that the sides can't buzz together. The next question is how many do I need? Let's say the wind flaps were 2" x 10" (better size?), would I put in 1 per sq. yard? More? Less?

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Desi Arnaz
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Kee Klamps

Postby Desi Arnaz » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:12 pm

I know of two sources for Kee Klamps in the US...

First choice is Davis Bacon Material Handling..

http://theonlinecatalog.com/davisbaconm ... duct_id=44

They can also usually get fittings that aren't listed on their site, just call them with the part number from the Kee site.

Second choice is Grainger, though they don't have as good a selection..

www.grainger.com

The 3/4" fittings (the -5 models) run from around $6 for the simple ones up to around $20. I think my fittings cost around $200 in all - that's for a structure that's 10' by 24'.

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Re: Tarp tethers?

Postby pokiedot » Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:25 am

Otisserie wrote:Tarp tethers: I just got a 12 x 12 heavy silver tarp to put over my tent and I was wondering the best way to tie it to the rebar stakes on the playa. Is is better to use some nylon cord and try and stretch it tight, or would it be better to incorporate some bungies so the ties have some give in a strong wind?


at our camp we are a big fan of the rebar staple. bend your rebar into staple shapes at home, it's a bit of work. we pound them into the playa, and then wrap the exposed horizontal rebar of the staple in duct tape. then we tie our guy lines to the staple. the duct tape keeps the sharp edges of the rebar from shredding the rope.

and i agree about the bungees.. i think taught is better than flexible.

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Postby pokiedot » Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:43 am

robotland wrote:....To my great disappointment I discovered that the grommets I used were brass COLORED, not actually brass, and they @##!! rusted from Playa exposure- it pays to use aluminum or REAL brass.


eek! i hope the grommets we used don't do the same thing.. i'm going to go dig our tarps out of storage and check it out!

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Postby gatonegro3 » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:55 am

How about agricultural polyethelene? it goes for about $20 for a 100' roll that's 10' wide. That and tarp tape, or better even GLUING shingling triangles should work. It's black and it's made to be in the sun, so it won't melt.

greenhouse effect? i think it comes in green too, which make for a milder oven.

gatonegro

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Re: How many?

Postby robotland » Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:05 am

[quote="Otisserie Let's say the wind flaps were 2" x 10" (better size?), would I put in 1 per sq. yard? More? Less?[/quote]

You might want to make a shape more like a fishscale- a crescent like a half frisbee in size....As far as how many, it might be best to make the covering and set it up, ideally in a strong wind, and then start cutting vents and observing how they work. You could trash a cheapo tarp or old sheets first, and then pull a pattern for the finished product. Will your tarp be set up like a pitched roof on a house? Flat? Depending on how it's set up you might not NEED to cut vents- as long as wind can get in AND back out without taking your shade with it....12x12 square is twice the size of the biggest single sheet of tarpage that I use on our dome except for those that are at ground level and anchored down. Maybe two smallers is better than one bigger.

Gatonegro- The plastic won't melt, but YOU WILL. Unless you layer them enough to make opaque shade like a heavy SILVER tarp, either blue or green plastic is going to ROAST YOU. And BLACK will render your shelter uninhabitable, unless you plan to only be in it at night. (I actually had thought about a solar shelter, all enclosed and black-clad, to stay warm in at night- Not worth the trouble.)
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gatonegro3
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Postby gatonegro3 » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:48 pm

Thanks, Robot.

Can anybody please anwser any of these?
-price of shrinkwrap (including tools for handling it)
-price of silver tarp
-price of some dome-burners-approved flooring cloth.

AND, anybody has anything against a cover for a HUGE DOME (30') as follows:

Option 1:
tailored triangles of agricultural black polyethelene for rain and dust, shingled and taped together (with open/close vents), covered in a second (spaced) layer of doubled up netting OR lightweight tarps, arranged in a conical way (sushi handroll fashion)

Option 2:
One layer only, thick silver mylar, shingled and taped together with tarp tape. (the tape that hardens the glue in the sun) with big vents. (hmmm, too hot?)

This would be my third biggish dome, being the previous ones more humble PVC f3 with 5' struts.

Thanks!

gatonegro

robotland
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Postby robotland » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:18 am

gatonegro3 wrote:
Can anybody please anwser any of these?
-price of shrinkwrap (including tools for handling it)
....sorry.
-price of silver tarp
....online or walk-in? I got all of mine at a surplus store and paid about 20 bucks for the biggest one, 20x30'. They get more costly the larger the surface area, it seems. I could get silver 5x7' for three bucks.
-price of some dome-burners-approved flooring cloth.
.....I use recycled canvas dropcloth, which traps moisure and excess dust "but not too much". Some sort of porous fabric would be my suggestion.
AND, anybody has anything against a cover for a HUGE DOME (30') as follows:

Option 1:
tailored triangles of agricultural black polyethelene for rain and dust, shingled and taped together (with open/close vents), covered in a second (spaced) layer of doubled up netting OR lightweight tarps, arranged in a conical way (sushi handroll fashion)
....I worry about the BLACK part- This weekend I plan to test the Krylon Fusion spraypaint (designed for use on plastics) on a polymesh truck tarp, so it can go from black to white or silver. I'll let you know. Overall design sounds very practical and versatile, though.
Option 2:
One layer only, thick silver mylar, shingled and taped together with tarp tape. (the tape that hardens the glue in the sun) with big vents. (hmmm, too hot?)
....Where are you getting this thick mylar? I want some! Will it be laminated onto tarps or plastic? If you just mean silver tarp, then this plan's similar to what I did last year, except that our tarps didn't overlap much. I used lots of small panels, so the wind wouldn't have anything big to push against, and strong gusts could flow through the cracks.
This year the structure is similar, but much more open- At a distance it looks like three inverted bowls of descending size, floating several feet apart.....
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robotland
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Postby robotland » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:20 am

...apologies- I should have used a different typeface for my comments.
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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Bob
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Re: How many?

Postby Bob » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:28 am

robotland wrote:....You might want to make a shape more like a fishscale- a crescent like a half frisbee in size....


ITYM "sphincter".

I'd just add battens. Why ruin a perfectly good tarp?

robotland wrote:Unless you layer them enough to make opaque shade like a heavy SILVER tarp, either blue or green plastic is going to ROAST YOU. And BLACK will render your shelter uninhabitable, unless you plan to only be in it at night. (I actually had thought about a solar shelter, all enclosed and black-clad, to stay warm in at night- Not worth the trouble.)


But given a finite amount of sunlight, a black tarp would absorb more, so less hits you. Right?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Re: How many?

Postby robotland » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:46 am

Bob wrote:[quote="robotland
I'd just add battens. Why ruin a perfectly good tarp?

.....I agree, and suggested smaller tarps over vents. Assumed a custom cover was a-bornin'.

[
But given a finite amount of sunlight, a black tarp would absorb more, so less hits you. Right?


.....Sure, it absorbs TONS more, but radiates heat both IN and OUT so the interior heats up more than if you're bouncing some of the heat back. I like to play on my structures, and even the silver tarps get hot in the sun, but the dark stuff equals *YIPES!* on contact.
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robotland
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Postby robotland » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:56 am

Unless you disagree, 'cuz, you know, you're BOB an' all. I'm just a dome-buildin' nerd with a bad case of Second-Year Syndrome....
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Postby LostMachine » Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:25 pm

I meant to post this a while ago but sometime you get busy.

We are using Hotel bed sheets because we can get them for free.

(there are over 1000 hotels in any major city start calling around if you like this idea)

I knew that they would rip easy so I wanted to strengthen them up.

First Bad idea:

I covered the sheet in Latex Paint; I thought that it would add strength to the fabric like adding Concrete to Rebar. Instead the stuff tore like Paper. All the paint did was hold the threads in a straight line to be sheared.

Next Idea:
The Sheets tore in Shear at the edges so how to increase the cross sectional area of the edges? I cut my triangular panel then bunched the corners up and put a zip tie on them. This made the edges roll over a bunch.

I tested it by putting the sheet in the same size frame that my dome is made out of. There are 180 of these triangles. With the sheet tied in the back of my truck I did 80mph for 8 hours on my way to the Alvord desert. Then we staked it upright for a few days. We had some decent winds and the panel held strong. Whether I was lucky and grabbed just the right sheet or if they will all fair this well I cannot say. I guess in a few weeks we’ll find out.

Image

The sheet in the pic was never cut of sewn to size the ones for the dome will look much nicer.

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Krylon Fusion and Truck Mesh

Postby robotland » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:55 am

I finally got to play with a can of Krylon Fusion, the paint designed for plastic lawn furniture and such that requires no primer.....The can recommends cleaning the surface, so I didn't, and sprayed white directly onto black truck-mesh tarp. After ten minutes in the sun I couldn't scratch it off, and the surface was dry and firm. (I had worried about heat retention in the black mesh, and traditional spraypaints flake off eventually when heated and flexed.)
Conclusion- It Works! Won't stay WHITE that long out there, but should be an improvement. I REALLY wanted SILVER, but the hardware store didn't have any. Science marches on.
Howdy From Kalamazoo


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