Looking for help with a dome...

waking_emma · Post by **waking_emma** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:41 pm

I am currently researching domes for my theme camp '08.
I have read extensively about both PVC and Metal Conduit domes.
I am looking to purchase a 30' or a 32' dome.
I have found Shelter Systems to be the leading PVC dome provider. Desert Domes is my leading competitor for the metal conduit.
Any thoughts from the community before I invest the tribes money?
Thank you in advance!

Kisses & Cookies,
Emma

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:56 pm

Oh yes I have suggestions.

I am not sure about how much help you have but you can make your own dome structure for under $300. You simply need to go buy the conduit pipe (available at most hardware store), a sledgehammer, a drill and something hard to hammer the ends of the conduit on. The following website has thorough instructions on the different types of domes.

http://www.desertdomes.com/

The dome makers you listed make good domes but I don't personally like the PVC domes (I worry that they are going to break as PVC weakens in the sunlight). One benefit of purchasing it from one of these companies is that you will get a custom tailored cover but IMO that is not really necessary. You can buy canvas at a surplus store and just grommet the hell out of them or you can just get a parachute. The other downside of buying one is the outrageous prices. For what cost them less than $200 to make, they are charging around $1000. That is one hell of a markup if you ask me.

It is also much more satisfying to build it yourself.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:32 pm

Save yourself a lot of headache, earache and heartache and borrow or buy a hydralic press to press the ends instead of using a hammer.

Silver tarps work well as a cover IF you can't see light through them. Parachutes are bad for many reasons. (think dome shaped oven)
Canvas works, but is heavy. Specially the amount needed to cover a dome that big.

Stake it down BEFORE you cover it.

And set it up a couple times before you hit the playa. No really..

Badger

waking_emma · Post by **waking_emma** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:32 pm

Thank you Dan! I appreciate all the feed back I can get.
I'll have to see what kind of help I can round up as far as building one goes. That would be my ideal! Do you think it would be a challenging undertaking for a 5'10" 117lb. woman? lol
I may be all the help i'll get! :D

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:01 pm

If you use a hydraulic press instead of a hammer none of the individual actions require all that much strength. It's just a lot of repeated actions. If you start scrounging conduit from construction sites and metal recyclers now you can save a few bucks.

Another good option for the cover is shade cloth. You can get fancy and sew a fitted cover, or just drape it down from the top in rows. Because it doesn't catch the wind, you don't have to worry as much about tying it on securely.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:05 pm

Do you think it would be a challenging undertaking for a 5'10" 117lb. woman?

Not too bad I wouldn't think. As long as you can carry a 10' piece of conduit pipe, you'll be ok. You'll be tired as fuck but you can do it. I would get some help though, it's not a one-person job and you definitely cannot put the dome up alone.

falk · Post by **falk** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:18 pm

PVC domes generally don't survive wind storms (although maybe Shelter Systems do better).

Metal conduit domes can withstand just about anything. Covering them is an issue. I used cotton canvas for mine, but regretted it because the cotton stains easily and shrinks if not thoroughly waterproofed. It also mildews and rots if not stored properly.

Expect to spend $1000-2000 building and covering a 32' dome.

Domes are way cool, but way too much effort to build just to use for a few days or a week at most. Not only are they very labor-intensive to build, but building them is a rather specialized job since there are so many different strut sizes involved.

If this is just a shade structure, consider building a monkey hut instead. http://www.geocities.com/lovemonkey2k1/

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:27 pm

Bring a scaffold to assemble this 32 foot high dome.
Make sure its been assembled (dry run) once before you get to the playa.
Make sure your struts are marked well so you can assemble properly.
Bring extra copies of assembly diagram.
Bring extra hardware.
Bring Grip Clips/Zip Ties/Grommet kit in case the grommets fail in your shade.

I witnessed NO oven effect with chute covered domes or shade structures. Canvas on the other hand had my dome 10+ degrees hotter when tested in FL against chute. Shade cloth was cooler than the white chute but not worth the extra cost compared to white chutes being 30 bucks. The canvas is good for cold weather however, and since the "floor" is covered with rubber both sides and up 12 inches on the sides its sorta waterproof. I still need to treat with oil to seal up the rest, not sure if I want to though.

If you decide to tackle the manufacture on your own don't hesitate to ask, I've made a few and assembled a few along with many others here. I wouldn't get one just for BM though, there are plenty of simpler easier shade solutions out there. Most of the folks I know that have domes also use em at home and other times of the year.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:47 pm

When she said 32' I assume she means in diameter which would make it approx 15.8' tall at the center. Our dome is 28' and we just use a regular ladder to get to the top (that or just climb up the outside stepping ONLY on the vertices.

The other tips from TM are great. You definitely want to assemble it BEFORE you get to the playa so you know what to expect, what's missing, etc.

As far as marking the struts we just use fluorescent colored paint on the ends (orange, yellow, and green in our case).

I cannot attest to the parachute cover. We use canvas wall tent walls that we got from surplus for hella cheap. They are heavier but they block 100% of the sunlight.

As far as canvas domes being hotter in Florida I can see how that could happen. The humidity in Florida would get "trapped" inside a dome with a solid cover like canvas, hence making it hotter inside. It's just like the greenhouse effect. However, on the playa humidity is not an issue (considering it is 0% humidity most of the time out there).

Token · Post by **Token** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:13 am

Dear Emma,

I would suggest you look into a Costco Car Port. They are affordable, effective and Playa proven.

Unless you are planing on getting seriously calloused hands, cuts, abrasions, bloody knuckles and broken nails, to name a few things the the lads are leaving out of this picture ...

Granted you miss out on the bragging rights with the knuckleheads...

BTW, what kind of theme camp is this where there is no one to help?

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:54 am

BitterDan wrote: I would get some help though, it's not a one-person job and you definitely cannot put the dome up alone.

Allow me to split hairs...SURE it can be done alone! It's just easier with two or more. I'm on my eighth conduit dome, and have personally hammer-and-anvil flattened all 1,896,254 strut-ends myself. The trick is to lift the hammer and then drop it, instead of swinging as though you were driving a nail. And if you do all of the banging at one time (a minimum of 130 strut-ends) then you'll be hurtin' fer certain. Do a few every day, and call it part of your exercise regimen. When it comes time for assembly you can make sub-assemblies that will be easier to wrangle by making the five pentagons (for a freq-two) and then hooking 'em together. A good A-frame ladder is all you need. A few suggestions:
-Use bolts that are a little longer than absolutely necessary. Makes it easier to get things going on those six-way connections.
-Make a few spare struts, especially for a dome bigger than 9' or 10' radius. At that size they're around five feet long, and bend much more easily.
-A good tool for straightening bendy struts is a scrap of 2'x4" about 2-3 feet long. A fancy carved handle is icing on the cake, and helpful if you also use it to administer "love taps" to the backsides of your campmates.
-Purchase a DEEP SOCKET socket set for your hardware. You CAN use a cordless drill to speed-set your connections, but it won't get 'em as tight AND you have to keep it charged up.

Let me know if you have more questions...and be sure to announce the location of your proud creation- I'm thinking about reviving the Parade Of Domes this year!

erri2000 · Post by **erri2000** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:06 am

robotland wrote:
BitterDan wrote: I would get some help though, it's not a one-person job and you definitely cannot put the dome up alone.
Allow me to split hairs...SURE it can be done alone! It's just easier with two or more.

Allow me to split the hair even finer. If you had the pleasure of coming by Coup de Coup last year you would probably have noticed that the structure ROCKED but never rolled.

The reason:

Disco Love's super-long lasting shade structure technique. He has it down to a science, and as I saw a lot of people having difficulty putting domes together, Disco could put the whole site together single handedly.

Very simple design, very effective results.

FYI Disco is making a come back in 2008

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:10 am

Allow me to split hairs...SURE it can be done alone!

I meant erecting the completed dome. It probably "can" be done alone but that would be a real pain in the ass since the struts wont hold themselves up while you bolt them down.

falk · Post by **falk** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:55 pm

Token wrote:Dear Emma,

I would suggest you look into a Costco Car Port. They are affordable, effective and Playa proven.

But be careful; there's two models, a flimsy one and a sturdy one. The flimsy one will not survive a playa dust storm. I know.

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:20 pm

If you go with the carport, the good one has struts that are around 2" diameter. We use a carport (in addition to our dome) and it's been a champ, not even a little tear.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:49 pm

waking_emma wrote:Do you think it would be a challenging undertaking for a 5'10" 117lb. woman?

Naw, just take yer top off...Im sure you'll have loads of help.

(Just kidding, playing on a stereotype.)

Folks at Burning Man are great about helping their neighbors. We helped our neighbors put up their pyramid and they helped us put up our airplane.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:37 am

BitterDan wrote:
Allow me to split hairs...SURE it can be done alone!
I meant erecting the completed dome. It probably "can" be done alone but that would be a real pain in the ass since the struts wont hold themselves up while you bolt them down.

I'm not saying that it isn't VASTLY easier with help...Just that I'm so damned stubborn that I'd often rather take ten times longer, getting bonked and scratched, than call for assistance. BUT my make-the-pentagons-first method really DOES work- You assemble the pents on the ground, then raise two and connect 'em, and from then on it all stands up on its own.
You get used to doing everything by yourself when you live where the burners are spread out to one every 20 miles or so.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG:
I tried something new yesterday- I had a smallish (5' rad) dome going unused, and some odd junk that needed a home, so I experimented with driving five T-stakes in a circle and then balancing the dome on top...This gives plenty of room to duck under, and I wrapped a long woodpile tarp around the sides of the newly-dubbed "Geosilo" to enclose it well enough to use a Mr. Heater Buddy within. Success! (I wired the dome to the tops of the stakes for safety, and can see making "special" stakes with predrilled holes so that the dome can simply be bolted on.) Now I have a megacomplex consisting of three domes, a sphere and a carport all tarped together and filled with delicious junk. Brand new toy: The pieces of a 35-foot antenna tower! Don't know what will become of them, but for now they're just nice to look at.

Dato · Post by **Dato** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:03 am

Emma,

I think pretty much everything has been mentioned already, but I'll throw in some words of experience.

Building the dome is not as hard as you may think. We have a 24' conduit dome that we build a couple of years ago, and it took two people just over a week (while working full time, so think evenings, weekends) to build it. I do have some tips, however.

1) As has been mentioned, start looking for cheap conduit. I lucked out, and was able to purchase 100 10' conduit pipes for $200 on craigslist. Keep looking for a deal, it will come up eventually.

2) No matter what anyone says, please, please do yourself a favor and try to get a hold of a hydraulic press to flatten the ends. We started out with a big sledgehammer, and let me tell you this, it is a MASSIVE pain in the ass. Not only that, but the ends come out less than perfect, a defect that rears it's ugly head when it comes time to set up. We found a friend of a friend of a friend that happened to have a press, and two short evenings later, we has nicely pressed pretty ends.

3) A drill press also makes your life a lot easier. Build a jig to allow yourself to slide in the pole and drill, and this should take no longer than a day.

We had two people (with some friends popping in to help every once in a while), but it can definitely be done with just one person. If would recommend enlisting a friend, however, if for no other reason, then to simply bounce ideas off of. Since we have never done this before, we were quite scared that we would screw something up, and only find out about it when we tried to connect the last vertex, and it simply didn't fit! Luckily, as we learned during setup, the dome does allow for quite a bit of error, and everything fit just great.

The setup itself, while can be done alone, is loads easier with two people. One to tie on struts, the other to hand them up. Our dome is 15' tall, and we have one of those spiffy expandable latters (the most expensive part of the project, mind you. $250!!!), and it's nice to have someone hand you the pipes and bolts so you don't have to go up and down all the time. Definitely set it up once or twice before hitting the playa. Trying to figure stuff out in the heat and wind is no fun.

Now on to the hardest part. The cover!!!!!!!! So far, we've been using these really ex-army tarps. They are thick, black on the inside, and white on the outside which makes it nice and cool inside. However, they are rectangular. The dome is a sphere. It is a huge pain in the ass to cover a spherical object with a bunch of rectangles. No fun at all. It takes us 2 hours to put up the dome, and another 8 (!!!) just to get the cover on. It sucks.

Last year, we decided NO MORE! We are finally going to put together a one piece drop-cloth cover. A friend got a beffy sewing machine and I'm working on the design. I'll post a thread about it once the work starts.

.....ok, I'm done ranting for now. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I'll do my best to answer.

And, in parting, here are some pictures of the build process and on the playa.

The marking:

The cutting:

The pressing:

The drilling:

The paining:

First set-up:

The vertecies:

First time working out the cover. Notice the gaps. No good.

Inside:

The only pic I have of it on-playa. It's first time out. Yes, we forgot one of the tarps!!!!!!! haha

mmmmmm, cozy!

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:27 am

LOL about time you chimed in Dato. I think this is the first time I've actually seen you post on eplaya.

I am part of Dato's crew and that is the dome I was talking about. It's crude but it works great.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:34 pm

Forgot to mention... a few eyebolts can give ya some options on the inside for mounting and hanging but could cause minor obstacles with coverings. I am an eyebolt fanatic when it comes to domes since I like to hang shit to keep it off the ground, also good for homemade hammocks.

Dato · Post by **Dato** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:46 pm

BitterDan wrote:LOL about time you chimed in Dato. I think this is the first time I've actually seen you post on eplaya.

I am part of Dato's crew and that is the dome I was talking about. It's crude but it works great.

Hey, fuck you, buddy. I take offence to that.

It's only crude when we forget half the covering at home!

falk · Post by **falk** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:16 pm

I just wanted to chime in on Dato's generally excellent advice and photos.

Especially about getting a hydrolic press. You can get a cheap one from Harbor Freight, flatten your conduit, then sell it again on Craig's List or gift it to someone else who's building a dome. They're well worth it.

Covering the dome is the bigger hassle. I spent weeks sewing canvas strips together to make the cover to my dome. NOT worth it. Your best bet is to get the largest canvas tarps you can find, cut them into rounded triangles to fit over a section of the dome, and edge with velcro so they join together.

Make sure your canvas is pre-shrunk and water-resistant.

Some photos of the process: http://www.efalk.org/OasisDome/photos/index.html

Finally, I *don't* recommend top-down construction (where you lift up the dome and add segments to the bottom). Too much stress on the parts and the people.

Dato · Post by **Dato** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:18 pm

falk wrote:I spent weeks sewing canvas strips together to make the cover to my dome. NOT worth it.

Oh, falk, don't say that! hehe. Care to elaborate on this? You were my cover insparation for a couple of years now!! Was it just too much work, or was there something wrong with the cover once set up. I am planning to do something similar to your covering, but with not quite so many pieces.

The dome structure is essencialy a soccer ball made of hexagons and pentagons. I was planning on cutting and sewing together the hexes and pents while allowing extra room since the surface is not flat.....if that makes any sense.

Here's a picture:

I have some friends that have a heavy duty surger to sew this together, and was planning on using "duck" cloth (canvas) for the material.

If there a compelling reason NOT to do this other than the time it would take to sew it together?

If the only reason is that it's a hassle to sew it, let it be know I'd rather spend 3 weeks pre-burn working on it than waste yet another precious burn day tying rectangular tarps to a sphere!

waking_emma · Post by **waking_emma** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:12 am

Wow Dato, Thank you for all of the advice! I now have access to a machine shop with everything I need in it, so I will be building my own dome!

I will have to document the process and share the progress... :)

And just think!, I didn't even have to take my top off to get some help!
haha...
Thanks again to everyone for the feed back! Please stop by Troop 69 this year or grab a Girl Scout if you see us out on the playa...
We'll have Cookies!!!

Kiss & Cookies,
Emma

BitterDan · Post by **BitterDan** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:33 am

And just think!, I didn't even have to take my top off to get some help!

Good going Dato......

falk · Post by **falk** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:09 pm

Dato wrote:
falk wrote:I spent weeks sewing canvas strips together to make the cover to my dome. NOT worth it.
Oh, falk, don't say that! hehe. Care to elaborate on this? You were my cover insparation for a couple of years now!! Was it just too much work, or was there something wrong with the cover once set up. I am planning to do something similar to your covering, but with not quite so many pieces.

Eeek. Now I feel guilty for leading you unto the path of Too Much Work. (Actually, I know of at least one other dome that followed my pattern as well.)

Here's the problem with sewing strips of canvas together into a dome: The canvas is bought in rolls which you then have to trim into triangle strips. After you trim them, you have raw edges that need to be kept from fraying somehow. My solution was to use flat-felled seams which are really elegant but a buttload of work. My crew and I spent frickin *weeks* sewing the damn thing together.

Problem #2: canvas from a fabric store will shrink. If you don't pre-shrink it before cutting it, you must never ever wash it, or it will never fit the dome again. Typical shrinkage is 10%. Waterproofed canvas is not so bad, shrinking 1-3%

Problem #3: I didn't get canvas that was waterproof or weather proof. It would have cost 2x as much. In retrospect, it would have been worth it given that several of my panels rotted over the winter and had to be replaced.

Here is what I would do instead: Buy large canvas tarps. For a 32' dome like mine you would want five 20'x25' tarps. Lay them out flat and mark them up with coardboard templates like the ones shown in my web page. You can then convert them into spherical sections by just sewing a few darts into them. It would be 1/10 the work and you'll get better covers.

Hmmm; I'll have to draw a diagram of this somehow.

I like your diagram; how did you make it? Anyway, your plan makes sense to me; just make sure you get weatherproof canvas like I didn't. Time permitting, you could improve the hexes and pentagons by putting darts into them to make them fit over their sections of the domes.

Here's an idea: pre-build one each of the different sizes of pentagons and hexagons and keep them in your living room as forms for laying out and trimming your canvas.

Dato · Post by **Dato** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:35 pm

Thanks for the advice falk! I'm not worried too much about waterproffing, as I'm planning on painting the canvas, thus water-proofing it. The chrinkage I will definitely have to worry about. I figure what I will do, is calculate the dimensions of a hex, cut it out, and wash it, then measure again. At that point, re-calculate the dimensions, cut the rest, and wash them as well.

My "sewing" friends have assured me that with theit supernatural sewing skills and crazy new machine, I should not worry about freying or sewing. They knock out heavy duty super-spiffy custom designed playa coats in a couple of hours each, so I trust them.

To make the diagram, I borrowed the "erection directions" diagram from desert domes, and just colored in the hexes and pents in photoshop (or paint, hehe).

Also, I'm still trying to decide between the cover being one piece, or two piece with clips in the middle. I'll have to put some more thought into it.

And last but not least, since we have extra materials and free minds, we will be modifying the geometry of the dome this year to make a usable door without compromising the structural integrity of the domehome. I'll post updates as we get somewhere with it.

Oh, and BitterDan, sorry, didn't mean to ruin it. Emma, while going topless is by no means a pre-requisite for obtaining help, it is always a welcomed gesture. :p

Token · Post by **Token** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:09 pm

This is why Tyvek + Tape is so much easier.

There is a new Tyvek 1460 with a metalized side to reflect sunlight.

http://www.materialconcepts.com/pages/uv-soft-tyvek.asp

falk · Post by **falk** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:41 pm

Dato wrote:And last but not least, since we have extra materials and free minds, we will be modifying the geometry of the dome this year to make a usable door without compromising the structural integrity of the domehome. I'll post updates as we get somewhere with it.

In that case you might be interested in http://geodome.sf.net if you have either Mac or Linux. It's the software I used to design my dome, and it can add doors and other features to a design.

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:54 pm

Falk was the inspiration for my "perfect" dome. I have utilized the canvas with great success and have plans on using the misting when I can. I think the only major change I have to my personal design is the bedliner coated floor. This was not for the playa rather to have the dome more 'permanent" if need be in a larger variety of environments. I also feel that Falk should be able to bring plants FOREVER since the camp is such a great example of folks that really care about doing it up right.

In fact my first dome is being used to store motorcycles and related support tools and equipment. Had to sell it to get to BM07

But no worries.. my happy ass will certainly get around to making another and it will prolly be a 3V or 4V.

Since you have access to a machine shop you can do all kinds of neat things to even further improve your dome Emma. For instance.. alot of folks dont get good deburring done on the strut ends whereas you can get some really nice smooth grinding done on your ends.. maybe even some rounding on the ends. You can set up a vise in a Bridgeport with a workstop to get your drilling done right quick without doing the ghetto fabulous wooden fixture methos many of us wind up using. You also may want to set up a drill press to debur the holes after drilling to further avoid the chance of a cut during assembly and handling of the struts. A large spot drill would suffice for this if the don't have a 6 flute.. just be careful not to push up too much when doing it by hand so the cutter don't grab and yank the strut while yer holding it.

Looking for help with a dome...

Looking for help with a dome...

Thank you!