HexaYurts

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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burner von braun
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Post by burner von braun » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:56 pm

One more question, in order to anchor the yurt, as I recall you run tape clear across each of the roof axis, draw it out and wrap it around a tube (pvc), then loop rope through the tube and down to your stakes (rebar). Are there any new/better ways to anchor a yurt, or is this still the preferred method? Thanks for everyones help, this is yurt prep weekend!

sambojones
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Re: cheap bi directional filament tape

Post by sambojones » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:47 am

Korwedge wrote:
sambojones wrote:just found this site for the tape http://www.goodbuyguys.com/catalog/prod ... cts_id/742 at $25.99 per roll of 6" without having to order a case of it is even cheaper than the findtape website case price. It's not a huge savings, but with how crazy expensive the tape is every little bit helps
A decent savings here, but has anyone purchased this tape? Is the quality sufficient for yurts? Is it the same tape that can be found at findtape?

My hexayurt worked great in 2008. I left it in the back of my truck wrapped in the floor tarp for most of the rest of the year, however, without cleaning it, and where some rain water contacted the playa dust on it's surface, the reflective coating was tarnished and is no longer reflective. I just bought a can of silver spray paint for $4 and it covers those spots up like new, and it seems to add some waterproofing as well!
ordering my tape for this year and the price is now up to $27.99 which is still cheaper than the findtape.com site. i used this tape last year for my stretch yurt and it held up fine gonna get some again this year

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Post by slvrnmph » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:38 am

burner von braun, you are correct that you also need to run tape across the roof and around around some pvc pipe to anchor your yurt to the ground. The rope is looped through the pvc and tired to an anchor in the ground. Last year I did 12 of these - each of the corners and through the center of each panel. From reading other people's experiences in this thread and on other forums, I'm just going to do the corners this year. I'm not concerned about the amount of tape used, just glad to be cutting down the amount of rebar I need to pound into the ground.
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Elderberry
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:30 am

In our experience, rebar for anchoring the yurt is over-kill. For the last two years we have used steel tent stakes with an eye-hole at one end. We place them as close to the yurt as possible -- two to three inches from the corner. Nothing for anyone to trip on, and we have had no problems with wind or stakes pulling loose--and no injuries from people either tripping or cutting themselves on rebar.

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Post by mikep_95133 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:58 pm

[quote="jkisha"]There is only one other thing I want to add about people modifying the basic design of the HexaYurt, especially door designs that cut into the roof, then I'll leave it alone:

[b]The main thing that makes a Yurt a Yurt is the complete and uninterrupted tension band that goes around the entire structure. That is what gives it all of it's stability and keeps everything in alignment. In the hexayurt, this it the 6" tape band that goes entirely around the top of the walls connecting the roof to the base. [/b]

JK[/quote]
I don't agree. I think roping each of the 6 corners to the ground has everything to do with a yurt's structural integrity. The band contributes, certainly. But is by far not the only useful structural approach to building a solid yurt.

It sounds like you are disqualifying my yurt due to the design changes. So far it sure acts like a yurt. I would categorize my yurt engineering under radical self expression. I built it a different way, and it still works very well. In fact better. You are the only dissenter. My blog has many positive comments on differences from the original design.

All of the yurt owners that came by last year told me they were seriously impressed with the design changes. So far the engineering differences allow my yurt to work just fine, as a yurt. It's structurally sound. Doesn't take rolls and rolls of tape to assemble, which wastes far less resources and costs less. Takes 15 minutes to stand it up. Uses zero rope to anchor it down and consequently handled the wind just fine. I didn't want a painful 4 foot high door. My door is 6 foot high with no height having to be added to the sides to achieve 6 feet. Loads of room for 2 people and all of our stuff.

In short, it works just like all other yurts. But it's the only one of it's type at BM. I hope others make major changes to their yurts as well.

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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:36 pm

mikep_95133 wrote:
jkisha wrote:There is only one other thing I want to add about people modifying the basic design of the HexaYurt, especially door designs that cut into the roof, then I'll leave it alone:

The main thing that makes a Yurt a Yurt is the complete and uninterrupted tension band that goes around the entire structure. That is what gives it all of it's stability and keeps everything in alignment. In the hexayurt, this it the 6" tape band that goes entirely around the top of the walls connecting the roof to the base.

JK
I don't agree. I think roping each of the 6 corners to the ground has everything to do with a yurt's structural integrity. The band contributes, certainly. But is by far not the only useful structural approach to building a solid yurt.

It sounds like you are disqualifying my yurt due to the design changes. So far it sure acts like a yurt. I would categorize my yurt engineering under radical self expression. I built it a different way, and it still works very well. In fact better. You are the only dissenter. My blog has many positive comments on differences from the original design.

All of the yurt owners that came by last year told me they were seriously impressed with the design changes. So far the engineering differences allow my yurt to work just fine, as a yurt. It's structurally sound. Doesn't take rolls and rolls of tape to assemble, which wastes far less resources and costs less. Takes 15 minutes to stand it up. Uses zero rope to anchor it down and consequently handled the wind just fine. I didn't want a painful 4 foot high door. My door is 6 foot high with no height having to be added to the sides to achieve 6 feet. Loads of room for 2 people and all of our stuff.

In short, it works just like all other yurts. But it's the only one of it's type at BM. I hope others make major changes to their yurts as well.
If it works for you, and you are happy with your design, isn't that the only opinion that really matters?

JK
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Post by mikep_95133 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:36 am

[quote="jkisha"][quote="mikep_95133"][quote="jkisha"]There is only one other thing I want to add about people modifying the basic design of the HexaYurt, especially door designs that cut into the roof, then I'll leave it alone:

[b]The main thing that makes a Yurt a Yurt is the complete and uninterrupted tension band that goes around the entire structure. That is what gives it all of it's stability and keeps everything in alignment. In the hexayurt, this it the 6" tape band that goes entirely around the top of the walls connecting the roof to the base. [/b]

JK[/quote]
I don't agree. I think roping each of the 6 corners to the ground has everything to do with a yurt's structural integrity. The band contributes, certainly. But is by far not the only useful structural approach to building a solid yurt.

It sounds like you are disqualifying my yurt due to the design changes. So far it sure acts like a yurt. I would categorize my yurt engineering under radical self expression. I built it a different way, and it still works very well. In fact better. You are the only dissenter. My blog has many positive comments on differences from the original design.

All of the yurt owners that came by last year told me they were seriously impressed with the design changes. So far the engineering differences allow my yurt to work just fine, as a yurt. It's structurally sound. Doesn't take rolls and rolls of tape to assemble, which wastes far less resources and costs less. Takes 15 minutes to stand it up. Uses zero rope to anchor it down and consequently handled the wind just fine. I didn't want a painful 4 foot high door. My door is 6 foot high with no height having to be added to the sides to achieve 6 feet. Loads of room for 2 people and all of our stuff.

In short, it works just like all other yurts. But it's the only one of it's type at BM. I hope others make major changes to their yurts as well.[/quote]

If it works for you, and you are happy with your design, isn't that the only opinion that really matters?

JK[/quote]

I am making sure that those who have not built any kind of a yurt, know there are other ways to build one successfully. To not be afraid to implement major changes as they see fit. I encourage them to be as diverse in their yurt building approach as they can. That's what makes BM what it is....

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:15 am

mikep_95133 wrote:
I am making sure that those who have not built any kind of a yurt, know there are other ways to build one successfully. To not be afraid to implement major changes as they see fit. I encourage them to be as diverse in their yurt building approach as they can. That's what makes BM what it is....
You know, I was hoping that you were just going to let this go...but since you didn't...

The architect in the office next to mine specializes in building very large and expensive yurts for people to use as permanent living or vacation homes in the hills here in California.

So, when you discuss engineering of the yurt, I have a pretty good source to discuss design and engineering with. If you do a Google search for "yurt tension band" you will quickly find that is one of the most important criteria for a yurt.

Additionally, I have had several email back and forths with Vinay Gupta, the inventor of the HexaYurt on design and materials.

I have nothing against diversity and innovation and the Hexayurt has become sort of a passion for me; which is why I followed your blog and all your posts while you were building your yurt and was totally intrigued by your approach, especially the door design.

I was excited when volunteering at the bus depot to see your yurt when I looked out the window, and immediately ran over to look at it. You weren't there, but one of your camp mates gave me a peek inside. Personally, and for some of the reasons I listed earlier, I would not consider your design modifications a success or improvement. I have many other criticisms that I have withheld, but if you want me to list them I will.

Everything I have posted here is based on my experience, as were yours. However, it is obvious that we have different standards in measuring success and a different threshold as to what we expect the performance of the yurt to be.

I just want people to know my personal feelings on this, so that they don't make what I consider a mistake in designing their yurts.

Again, and this is the most important thing...THIS IS MY OPINION. People are free to accept or reject it. I followed your design process closely, unfortunately I was disappointed in the end result. I'm sure there are many that will feel differently, as you already pointed out.

JK
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Post by slvrnmph » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:41 am

Jkisha, can you post a link to the stakes you use? I wouldn't mind using something other than rebar to tie my yurt down with.
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Post by Craftsmn » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:23 pm

burner von braun wrote:One more question, in order to anchor the yurt, as I recall you run tape clear across each of the roof axis, draw it out and wrap it around a tube (pvc), then loop rope through the tube and down to your stakes (rebar). Are there any new/better ways to anchor a yurt, or is this still the preferred method? Thanks for everyones help, this is yurt prep weekend!
For another option I use the rope loop method described here.

http://www.azburners.org/hexayurt.htm

It has worked well for the last 4 years

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:30 pm

I searched all over the internet to try to find a link or picture, no luck. We'll be pulling out the yurt and other BM stuff to check and make any necessary repairs for the trip, so I'll take a picture and post it when we get everything out.

Coincidentally, we just went to HD looking for other BM stuff and found some bolts that we might use to replace those stakes we have been using. The HD part number is 030699092963, they're called eye bolts and are 2.81 each. We bought the last three they had in stock and will be going back Thursday when they restock for three more. They pretty much look like the tent stakes we use now, but they are WAY larger in diameter. Maybe overkill, but we're sort of addicted to finding ways to upgrade the yurt.

We're still debating the second wing addition.

JK
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Post by Craftsmn » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:38 pm

slvrnmph wrote:Jkisha, can you post a link to the stakes you use? I wouldn't mind using something other than rebar to tie my yurt down with.
I have used these crazy big 16" safety orange stakes and they have worked well.

http://tinyurl.com/34ghcuo

Link is to Homedepot

I like using them because of the flourescent color and they are not rebar. I have nothing against rebar and do bring a few for back-up but have never needed them.

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Post by mikep_95133 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:06 pm

[quote="jkisha"][quote="mikep_95133"]

I am making sure that those who have not built any kind of a yurt, know there are other ways to build one successfully. To not be afraid to implement major changes as they see fit. I encourage them to be as diverse in their yurt building approach as they can. That's what makes BM what it is....[/quote]

You know, I was hoping that you were just going to let this go...but since you didn't...

The architect in the office next to mine specializes in building very large and expensive yurts for people to use as permanent living or vacation homes in the hills here in California.

So, when you discuss engineering of the yurt, I have a pretty good source to discuss design and engineering with. If you do a Google search for "yurt tension band" you will quickly find that is one of the most important criteria for a yurt.

Additionally, I have had several email back and forths with Vinay Gupta, the inventor of the HexaYurt on design and materials.

I have nothing against diversity and innovation and the Hexayurt has become sort of a passion for me; which is why I followed your blog and all your posts while you were building your yurt and was totally intrigued by your approach, especially the door design.

I was excited when volunteering at the bus depot to see your yurt when I looked out the window, and immediately ran over to look at it. You weren't there, but one of your camp mates gave me a peek inside. Personally, and for some of the reasons I listed earlier, I would not consider your design modifications a success or improvement. I have many other criticisms that I have withheld, but if you want me to list them I will.

Everything I have posted here is based on my experience, as were yours. However, it is obvious that we have different standards in measuring success and a different threshold as to what we expect the performance of the yurt to be.

I just want people to know my personal feelings on this, so that they don't make what I consider a mistake in designing their yurts.

Again, and this is the most important thing...THIS IS MY OPINION. People are free to accept or reject it. I followed your design process closely, unfortunately I was disappointed in the end result. I'm sure there are many that will feel differently, as you already pointed out.

JK[/quote]

My yurt simply works well. That's not an opinion, it's a proven fact. 2010 will prove it again. That's what makes BM so great. Not doing things just like everyone else, is something I've enjoyed doing for a long time. I hope my design inspires someone else to make useful changes to their design as well to help keep from creating a cookie cutter culture of yurts. And if it does inspire, I will be there to cheer them on!

Mike

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Post by ConnieH » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:35 am

These are similar to the stakes we use:

http://www.ronniesunshines.com/heavy-du ... 449d22052d

I think my BF got them at an army surplus store. Pound them in to ground level, pour a little water over them and they don't budge.

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Post by Elderberry » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:47 pm

Here's a pic of the stakes we use for the yurt

Image

I have no clue where we got them, but they're 12" long and steel. If anybody does find a source, let me know. We're looking for some more.

JK
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Hello everybody, I just fixed the Checklist video links

Post by hexayurt » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:16 am

http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_playa_checklist

Archive.org had changed its URLS so the links were broken. I've fixed them.

How's it looking this year? Seems like a *lot* of people are building yurts. There's been talk about a hexayurt "get together" somewhere on the playa, set a place and time and all the folks building them can get together for a how-are-ya-and-how's-yer-yurt. Anybody want to host? I'll put a link up on the main web site if you give me the time/space coordinates.

You also might be interested in my new book project:
http://thefuturewedeserve.com

Any questions, anything needs done - hexayurt@gmail.com as always.

Enjoy the burn!

Vinay

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swami108
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Post by swami108 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:45 am

Hi Vinay and friends!

How bout a Hexayurt Happy hour? I would be happy to host this event at 4:30 & A.

swami

Click here for latest pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/11351571493 ... directlink



[/url]

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Post by kman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:06 am

Thanks, Vinay, hope to meet you out there! :)

Our crew will be putting together a detailed photo diary of our 6' tall (walls), hinged HexaYurt build. Real soon now. (joke... I'll be incredibly lucky if we manage to get it online before we depart for BRC)

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:17 am

Sounds like a good idea. We'd be up for hosting too. Our camp will have around 10 give or take--probably more. But I can assure you that none of them will be as beautifully decorated as swami's.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:22 am

kman wrote:Thanks, Vinay, hope to meet you out there! :)

Our crew will be putting together a detailed photo diary of our 6' tall (walls), hinged HexaYurt build. Real soon now. (joke... I'll be incredibly lucky if we manage to get it online before we depart for BRC)
We're building 6' add on for our existing yurt. I'd be curious to see your photos. How did you handle the walls? add a 2' section to the top? or bottom? or alternate top and bottom? or cut 8' panels to length and install them vertically? We're planning on having the 6' yurt for our living area and the 4' yurt for sleeping and clothes storage etc. with no direct exit except into the new main 6' yurt area.

JK
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Post by kman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:37 am

jkisha wrote:
kman wrote:Thanks, Vinay, hope to meet you out there! :)

Our crew will be putting together a detailed photo diary of our 6' tall (walls), hinged HexaYurt build. Real soon now. (joke... I'll be incredibly lucky if we manage to get it online before we depart for BRC)
We're building 6' add on for our existing yurt. I'd be curious to see your photos. How did you handle the walls? add a 2' section to the top? or bottom? or alternate top and bottom? or cut 8' panels to length and install them vertically? We're planning on having the 6' yurt for our living area and the 4' yurt for sleeping and clothes storage etc. with no direct exit except into the new main 6' yurt area.
We had one standard 8' yurt (4' wall height) from last year... I think the owner (fknsellers, our chief architect, he posted earlier in this thread on pg 9) just added 2' panels to the bottom. It's also hinged, and I think he didn't want to have to cut all the hinges and re-tape all the walls. I was busy working on my own yurt, though, so I could be wrong about that, maybe they actually did? I don't think so, though.

For this year's new yurts (4 of them), we alternated the 2' panels top and bottom. I'm not 100% sure it makes a significant difference, but it seemed like a prudent idea nonetheless. If nothing else, I suppose it avoid a slightly thicker band that would otherwise go around the bottom?

Cruise by and visit Prometheatrics and see us anytime; we're on the Esplanade. :) Mine will be the one in the middle with a ~4'x4' solar array on top. Our line of yurts will separate the camp interior from the public area, so hard to miss.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:49 am

kman wrote:. :) Mine will be the one in the middle with a ~4'x4' solar array on top. Our line of yurts will separate the camp interior from the public area, so hard to miss.
That's a great idea, using the yurts to divide public and private areas. I'm going to run that idea by the rest of our planning committee.

I'll try and stop by and say hello.

We were also thinking about putting the two foot extensions at the bottom and hinging them so that they would open to the outside of the yurt. This way we could attach the roof first. then lift up the entire structure and the bottom would (hopefully) swing into place and we would finish the taping.

Just a thought at this point, but it's driven by the thinking that it would be easier to attach the roof at a 4' height than at 6'. But it's all in the thought stages at this point. We'll have to decide when we make out trip to Home Depot this weekend.

JK
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Re: Hello everybody, I just fixed the Checklist video links

Post by swami108 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:44 pm

Vinay and John!

Thanks for your awesome comments! I've checked with my camp mates who are with me and the Pyronaughts at 4:30 & A. We would LOVE to host Hexayurt Happy Hour from 5-7 Wed Sep 1. This is an awesome opportunity to celebrate all the creativity and hardwork of the Hexayurtan community!

Love,

swami



[quote="hexayurt"]http://www.appropedia.org/Hexayurt_playa_checklist

Archive.org had changed its URLS so the links were broken. I've fixed them.

How's it looking this year? Seems like a *lot* of people are building yurts. There's been talk about a hexayurt "get together" somewhere on the playa, set a place and time and all the folks building them can get together for a how-are-ya-and-how's-yer-yurt. Anybody want to host? I'll put a link up on the main web site if you give me the time/space coordinates.

You also might be interested in my new book project:
http://thefuturewedeserve.com

Any questions, anything needs done - hexayurt@gmail.com as always.

Enjoy the burn!

Vinay[/quote]

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:14 pm

kman wrote:
jkisha wrote:
kman wrote:Thanks, Vinay, hope to meet you out there! :)

Our crew will be putting together a detailed photo diary of our 6' tall (walls), hinged HexaYurt build. Real soon now. (joke... I'll be incredibly lucky if we manage to get it online before we depart for BRC)
We're building 6' add on for our existing yurt. I'd be curious to see your photos. How did you handle the walls? add a 2' section to the top? or bottom? or alternate top and bottom? or cut 8' panels to length and install them vertically? We're planning on having the 6' yurt for our living area and the 4' yurt for sleeping and clothes storage etc. with no direct exit except into the new main 6' yurt area.
We had one standard 8' yurt (4' wall height) from last year... I think the owner (fknsellers, our chief architect, he posted earlier in this thread on pg 9) just added 2' panels to the bottom. It's also hinged, and I think he didn't want to have to cut all the hinges and re-tape all the walls. I was busy working on my own yurt, though, so I could be wrong about that, maybe they actually did? I don't think so, though.

For this year's new yurts (4 of them), we alternated the 2' panels top and bottom. I'm not 100% sure it makes a significant difference, but it seemed like a prudent idea nonetheless. If nothing else, I suppose it avoid a slightly thicker band that would otherwise go around the bottom?

Cruise by and visit Prometheatrics and see us anytime; we're on the Esplanade. :) Mine will be the one in the middle with a ~4'x4' solar array on top. Our line of yurts will separate the camp interior from the public area, so hard to miss.
Ya, I was talking about wall height. I don't like the smaller designs near as much as the ones made out of entire 4' x 8' panels. So we're going to have one with 4' high walls as our sleeping area, and one with 6' walls that's the main living space. I'm hoping the AC will cool both rooms, but based on how cold it made one room, I'm sure it will handle them both. I'm thinking a fan to help circulate the air from the room with the AC to the other room. We'll see how that works.

I have been a bit hesitant to try a yurt with 8' tall walls. Seems like too much vertical wall area exposed to the wind. Not to mention the logistics of attaching the roof. I'll just be happy I won't have to bend over too much to get in and out of the main unit with the 6' walls.

JK
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Hexayurt Happy Hour!

Post by hexayurt » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:44 am

Ok, Swami, let's do it!

Can you give me a URL for the event - just someplace I can link to from the hexayurt homepage for people to get more info? You could put it on your camp page or on the hexayurt pages at Appropedia and I'll pop it up on the site ASAP :-)

*Rock*!

Vinay

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8 foot sided yurt Pics

Post by scottgeller » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:15 pm

Here's some pics of our yurt last year. we had an air conditioner and a 6 foot sleep node. It was at 7:30 & f. This year we'll be at the CircusMaximus2010 camp 10:00 & J...way in the boonies.............but come visit. I'll have a green laser beacon aimed at the playa again to find us. We're building another sleep node.[/size]

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Re: 8 foot sided yurt Pics

Post by Elderberry » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:54 pm

scottgeller wrote:Here's some pics of our yurt last year. we had an air conditioner and a 6 foot sleep node. It was at 7:30 & f. This year we'll be at the CircusMaximus2010 camp 10:00 & J...way in the boonies.............but come visit. I'll have a green laser beacon aimed at the playa again to find us. We're building another sleep node.[/size]

http://picasaweb.google.com/scottgeller ... feat=email#
Cool. Quick question...did you attach the roof to the top row walls and then lift that onto the bottom wall section? or did you attach both the top and bottom wall sections and lift the roof the full 8' and attach it?

Edited for stupidity. I see your installation technique after viewing the rest of the pictures.

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Post by kman » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:11 am

We finished our 6' yurts this weekend... finally, one MAJOR item off the list!

I need to get some photos from my friend to add to mine, then we'll be putting together a full series of instructional photos and a comprehensive how-to page.

These things are gonna rock. :)

Improvements for next year: Better door, and better door latching mechanism. But we're good for this year.

I leave you with a couple of shots from our final test-build (we set up one of the 5 yurts just as a test).

Image
Image
Image

(3 people could easily have lifted the roof, but it's more fun with more hands.)

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Post by ConnieH » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:55 pm

kman wrote:We finished our 6' yurts this weekend... finally, one MAJOR item off the list!

I need to get some photos from my friend to add to mine, then we'll be putting together a full series of instructional photos and a comprehensive how-to page.

These things are gonna rock. :)

Improvements for next year: Better door, and better door latching mechanism. But we're good for this year.

I leave you with a couple of shots from our final test-build (we set up one of the 5 yurts just as a test).

Image
Image
Image

(3 people could easily have lifted the roof, but it's more fun with more hands.)
Looks awesome! And nice shop...I'd love to have something like that to build in, my yurt has pieces of grass and dog hair in my tape ;-) Next year, I think we'll extend ours to 6' walls, when I have a new vehicle and more time...

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Post by kman » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:13 pm

ConnieH wrote:
kman wrote:We finished our 6' yurts this weekend... finally, one MAJOR item off the list!

I need to get some photos from my friend to add to mine, then we'll be putting together a full series of instructional photos and a comprehensive how-to page.

These things are gonna rock. :)

Improvements for next year: Better door, and better door latching mechanism. But we're good for this year.

I leave you with a couple of shots from our final test-build (we set up one of the 5 yurts just as a test).

<schnip>

(3 people could easily have lifted the roof, but it's more fun with more hands.)
Looks awesome! And nice shop...I'd love to have something like that to build in, my yurt has pieces of grass and dog hair in my tape ;-) Next year, I think we'll extend ours to 6' walls, when I have a new vehicle and more time...
I never could have built a yurt this year if we hadn't had access to fknsellers' work space after hours and weekends. The living room in my condo is not conducive to large scale projects like this! Never could have happened for most of us, with him. Thanks again, buddy! (if you happen to read this thread again)

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