Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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VultureChow
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:17 am

Monkey huts are extremely easy to build. I did it and I have like zero construction experience.

SO I did some back of the envelope calculations; at least I still remember my trigonometry. Think of your standard monkey hut as essentially a half circle with a radius of 6 feet. That means its peak height is 6'. Too short for for a springbar or kodiak.

ideally you have a foot of clearance between your tent and the shade, so you go with a radius of 7.5 feet. The problem is the ceiling of the tent is uniform for about 8 feet. So centered in the hut, you'd need a minimum height of say 7ft in your monkey hut at a distance of 4 feet from the center. Luckily cartesian coordinates work great for this problem.

x^2 +y^2 = radius^2

x = 4 and the radius is 7.5. Meaning the height at the end of the tent ceiling is 6.3 feet, too short for our tent.

If we bump the radius up to 8 feet, then we get a height at x= 4 of 6.9 feet. We have enough clearance now. It's not perfect, but it is tall enough to fit without rubbing the tent.

Building an 8 ft radius monkey hut requires a little over 25 feet of circumference for a half circle. So while the original design uses stock 10ft pvc, you would need to devise a way to increase the length of each rib by 2.5 ft. I suppose with he right sleaves you could do that. Say a 4 ft sleeve that goes flush to the ground and extends 1.5 ft past the joint. It would be less flexible though.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:28 am

That sounds like the right line of reasoning to me. You could use longer sleeves, or just add a 5' section of PVC (a third section to the rib). Read all you can about monkey huts if you go this route and it should be clear-ish how you should go about it.

It occurs to me that we're bringing a box truck this year... Maybe I'll just put my tent behind the box truck for morning/late morning sun protection. That'll be a hell of a lot easier (and less risky) than building a hut over it. It won't help once we get to 11am-ish, I imagine, but I never slept that late at bman. Normally I'm up by 8:30am. That, plus my swamp cooler should be a decent solution.

The only other thought I've had about shading my Kodiak has been to string an emergency blanket over the roof of my tent, using the exposed points of the flex-rod as tie-on points. Basically I'd lay an emergency blanket over my tent (not nearly large enough to cover it, so maybe I'd need two...), tie a bungee ball into each corner of the blanket, then attach the end of the bungee to the flex-rod. That should suspend it over my tent and give good shade (for at least part of the tent) There are various issues I see with this idea, though, so I probably won't try it:
1. The bungee cord will inevitably touch the edge of the tent's flex-rod sleeve, which could cause it to rub and fray/rip, especially given then tension on that piece of fabric
2. The emergency blanket will probably eventually rip, due to constant wind battering, which will cause it to MOOP or entirely fly away.
3. The blanket is too small to be an effective shade.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:35 am

I'm doing another trial run this friday with my hut and tent. It might be worth a few extra pieces of pvc to give it a try. Maybe not for this year. I'd have to increase the length to have some outdoor shade too. SO now I'd need a 16x20 monkey hut. Or, one tall one and one standard one.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:57 am

VultureChow wrote:I'm doing another trial run this friday with my hut and tent. It might be worth a few extra pieces of pvc to give it a try. Maybe not for this year. I'd have to increase the length to have some outdoor shade too. SO now I'd need a 16x20 monkey hut. Or, one tall one and one standard one.
16x20 actual footprint, or is that the size of the shade cloth you think you'd need to cover your Kodiak? Our standard MH uses a 20x20 tarp, which comes out to about 12'x20' actual footprint (12' opening, 20' long). That was barely enough for my 6' high x 10' diameter dome tent last year (actually not quite enough, cause the PVC touched the top of my rainfly and rubbed right through). I spose if you did a 16' long hut and 20' wide opening that might cut it for a 10x10 Kodiak/Springbar, but you'd need to use 30' ribs to get a 20' opening.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:22 am

MacGlenver wrote:
VultureChow wrote:I'm doing another trial run this friday with my hut and tent. It might be worth a few extra pieces of pvc to give it a try. Maybe not for this year. I'd have to increase the length to have some outdoor shade too. SO now I'd need a 16x20 monkey hut. Or, one tall one and one standard one.
16x20 actual footprint, or is that the size of the shade cloth you think you'd need to cover your Kodiak? Our standard MH uses a 20x20 tarp, which comes out to about 12'x20' actual footprint (12' opening, 20' long). That was barely enough for my 6' high x 10' diameter dome tent last year (actually not quite enough, cause the PVC touched the top of my rainfly and rubbed right through). I spose if you did a 16' long hut and 20' wide opening that might cut it for a 10x10 Kodiak/Springbar, but you'd need to use 30' ribs to get a 20' opening.
16x20 actual foot print. I have a 10x20 tarp for my current monkey hut setup per the original instructions. so I'd need a 25x20 tarp for that or two 25x10's.

I'm wondering if using your idea of the space blanket basically just draped over the tent and secured to the poles might work with aluminet. Less wind load, so less flapping and rubbing, you could get the size you want.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by AbundantChoice » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:25 am

MacGlenver wrote: The only other thought I've had about shading my Kodiak has been to string an emergency blanket over the roof of my tent, using the exposed points of the flex-rod as tie-on points. Basically I'd lay an emergency blanket over my tent (not nearly large enough to cover it, so maybe I'd need two...), tie a bungee ball into each corner of the blanket, then attach the end of the bungee to the flex-rod. That should suspend it over my tent and give good shade (for at least part of the tent).
Yeah. It depends on your heat profile and how much protection you actually want. I drape 70% aluminet over my Kodiak, using bungie ties to attach it to the tent stakes at 3 points on 3 sides (and just the two corners up front). I put a little extra space up top using the super-high-tech method of shoving a pair of cardboard boxes on the "side arms" that are on either side of the main spring bar; this moves the aluminet about a foot off the top of the tent. You could probably get away w/o this extra space entirely; aluminet is less dependent on space underneath it than other shade stuff (it reflects way more than it absorbs), but it can't hurt.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:33 am

AbundantChoice wrote:
MacGlenver wrote: The only other thought I've had about shading my Kodiak has been to string an emergency blanket over the roof of my tent, using the exposed points of the flex-rod as tie-on points. Basically I'd lay an emergency blanket over my tent (not nearly large enough to cover it, so maybe I'd need two...), tie a bungee ball into each corner of the blanket, then attach the end of the bungee to the flex-rod. That should suspend it over my tent and give good shade (for at least part of the tent).
Yeah. It depends on your heat profile and how much protection you actually want. I drape 70% aluminet over my Kodiak, using bungie ties to attach it to the tent stakes at 3 points on 3 sides (and just the two corners up front). I put a little extra space up top using the super-high-tech method of shoving a pair of cardboard boxes on the "side arms" that are on either side of the main spring bar; this moves the aluminet about a foot off the top of the tent. You could probably get away w/o this extra space entirely; aluminet is less dependent on space underneath it than other shade stuff (it reflects way more than it absorbs), but it can't hurt.
How much extra habitable time do you estimate you get in your tent with the aluminet?

What size do you use?
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:43 am

VultureChow wrote:
MacGlenver wrote:
VultureChow wrote:I'm doing another trial run this friday with my hut and tent. It might be worth a few extra pieces of pvc to give it a try. Maybe not for this year. I'd have to increase the length to have some outdoor shade too. SO now I'd need a 16x20 monkey hut. Or, one tall one and one standard one.
16x20 actual footprint, or is that the size of the shade cloth you think you'd need to cover your Kodiak? Our standard MH uses a 20x20 tarp, which comes out to about 12'x20' actual footprint (12' opening, 20' long). That was barely enough for my 6' high x 10' diameter dome tent last year (actually not quite enough, cause the PVC touched the top of my rainfly and rubbed right through). I spose if you did a 16' long hut and 20' wide opening that might cut it for a 10x10 Kodiak/Springbar, but you'd need to use 30' ribs to get a 20' opening.
16x20 actual foot print. I have a 10x20 tarp for my current monkey hut setup per the original instructions. so I'd need a 25x20 tarp for that or two 25x10's.

I'm wondering if using your idea of the space blanket basically just draped over the tent and secured to the poles might work with aluminet. Less wind load, so less flapping and rubbing, you could get the size you want.
Oooo.. That's a novel idea. I've sorta been looking for an excuse to get some aluminet... Also, the spreader bar down the length of the tent should keep it from flapping too much against the roof. I could maybe even get it to be long enough to drop off the roof 5 feet and guy it down to the ground so the sides are covered too. I could put the narrow end facing the sun. Since I won't use the awning, maybe the awning poles could come into play somewhere with this design. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..........

My main concern would be how to attach it to the tension rods without touching the canvas. Maybe I could make a cap for the tips of the tension rods and tie the shade material to that so that it never touches the fabric..... hmmm this requires some thought... It would add a little load to the tension bars, but I think they're tough enough to take it (especially if it's just aluminet............ HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.........
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:04 am

FYI, here's basically the same discussion in another thread from 2011.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43384

May want to merge the threads.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:13 am

Double bump. Wondering the same about aluminet over a kodiak. My main concern is the aluminet rubbing against the canvas and wearing a hole (especially on the roof or the tension bar sleeves, which have a lot of load on them). Do you guys use support poles for the aluminet? Since I won't be using the awning of my tent, those could serve as support poles if necessary, but i would thing that just draping/guying the aluminet down would work fine.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by AbundantChoice » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:14 am

VultureChow wrote:How much extra habitable time do you estimate you get in your tent with the aluminet?

What size do you use?
I have no idea, really, as I've never done it another way. I definitely am not up when the sun comes up, so maybe an extra hour or two? It does heat up eventually though.

I use a 21' by 15' or so, it's definitely 21' long as that was one of the pre-set widths. The 21' run goes across the top and down either side of the tent, and the rest goes over the back (with maybe a foot or so hanging over the front). None of it makes it to the ground along the sides/back, there's a good foot along the sides and back at the bottom that are uncovered. As long as your front is facing away from the morning sun, it's probably the easiest way to go. If your front is facing any other direction, adjust the drape accordingly. I did think about using the awning poles and buying a bigger net to create some front coverage, but those awning poles seem like the weakest poles out of the set by far, and space constraints at my original camp made that less feasible.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:20 am

AbundantChoice wrote:
VultureChow wrote:How much extra habitable time do you estimate you get in your tent with the aluminet?

What size do you use?
I have no idea, really, as I've never done it another way. I definitely am not up when the sun comes up, so maybe an extra hour or two? It does heat up eventually though.

I use a 21' by 15' or so, it's definitely 21' long as that was one of the pre-set widths. The 21' run goes across the top and down either side of the tent, and the rest goes over the back (with maybe a foot or so hanging over the front). None of it makes it to the ground along the sides/back, there's a good foot along the sides and back at the bottom that are uncovered. As long as your front is facing away from the morning sun, it's probably the easiest way to go. If your front is facing any other direction, adjust the drape accordingly. I did think about using the awning poles and buying a bigger net to create some front coverage, but those awning poles seem like the weakest poles out of the set by far, and space constraints at my original camp made that less feasible.
So you literally just drape the aluminet and guy it down? It touches the canvas, etc? Any issues with rubbing? I had a monkey hut over my nylon dome tent last year and a piece of PVC was touching,which rubbed a hole through. I imagine a Kodiak and Aluminet touching isnt at nearly the same risk for rubbing/tearing, no?

I'm gonna do some searching for Aluminet sources. I'm sure there's tons of info on eplaya bout where I can get it, but feel free to let me know where you got it if you got a good deal.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by gyre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:21 am

Aluminet non-solid is stretchy, so it shouldn't move too much.
You could always pad the wear points.
I used heavy vinyl over a cheap cabin tent and once the flapping was controlled, not much movement problem.
Had a spacer in the center, went right over the tent on the ends.
May be more of an issue of wear on the aluminet.

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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:23 am

I'm looking at pics of the springbar and wondering, do they all have that bar across the top and what is it's diameter?

Could you slide a pvc X connector on to each end, then a stick of pvc bowed down at each corner like a monkey hut using that top bar as the spine?

I would'nt suggest this with anything but aluminet as it's so lite, but it would be cheap and simple to test. 8)
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:28 am

FIGJAM wrote:I'm looking at pics of the springbar and wondering, do they all have that bar across the top and what is it's diameter?

Could you slide a pvc X connector on to each end, then a stick of pvc bowed down at each corner like a monkey hut using that top bar as the spine?

I would'nt suggest this with anything but aluminet as it's so lite, but it would be cheap and simple to test. 8)
Yes, they all have a bar down the length of the tent. It is about 3/4" in diameter. That bar is what bends the tension rods on either end, which forms the roof. I suspect that you could do what you're suggesting; however, at that point I wonder if it would just make more sense to build a full monkey hut, as you're not saving yourself a ton of effort by just replacing the ridge pole. If one is able to just drape aluminet over the tent, that would be ideal since you wouldnt have to carry anything but stakes and guy ropes (ie. no PVC, etc).
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:34 am

The idea was that with that tent ancored the way it is, that using top bar for the spine would keep the "hut" part from flexing and rubbing on the tent.

The problem is it won't be long enough to shade the ends of the tent.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by misfit » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:42 am

>>>>aluminet rubbing against the canvas and wearing a hole<<<<<

we put aluminet directly over our kodiak,,, never had a problem with wear.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:44 am

misfit wrote:>>>>aluminet rubbing against the canvas and wearing a hole<<<<<

we put aluminet directly over our kodiak,,, never had a problem with wear.
Sweet. Thanks! Now for sourcing... This shit is expensive. 25x14 for $160. Ouch... Though that's the fabricated stuff w/ taped edge & grommets. Suspect I can do better on the raw stuff, which appears to be sufficient.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:53 am

FIGJAM wrote:The idea was that with that tent ancored the way it is, that using top bar for the spine would keep the "hut" part from flexing and rubbing on the tent.

The problem is it won't be long enough to shade the ends of the tent.
Hmm, maybe im having trouble visualizing it. You're saing put an X connector on either end of the the center spine pole, then.... wait, maybe now i'm getting it. Then you'd curve PVC up from the ground to attach to the X ,and you'd have a tidy little half cylinder over your tent... That might work, actually... Two issues I'd see:
1. Keeping the X connectors spaced apart so they don't slide together. You couldn't sleeve a piece of PVC over the entire ridge pole to maintain the spacing because you have to split the ridge pole in half to put up/take down the tent, and that PVC would prevent the ridge pole from breaking in half.
2. The tarp/aluminet would come down in front of your door (since the door is parallel with the ridge pole), so you probably wouldn't have a ton of room to get out of your tent.

From this thread, it sounds like aluminet touching the Kodiak isn't really an issue: http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p951250

I may just go with their method and drape the aluminet over my tent and guy it down. I may bring some padding for the tension rod sleeves just to be safe. Damn this aluminet crap is expensive....
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by gyre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:28 am

What percentage is that?

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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:38 am

gyre wrote:What percentage is that?
70% from here (http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prod ... de-curtain). With tax & shipping it comes out to $195:
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by gyre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 am

Be sure to compare type to type.
Also according to the tenax site, 70% does not block 70% of light.
80% is out there.
90% and 100% don't seem to be imported anymore, though I have seen them on the playa.

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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by YoppWorks » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 am

What great reading!!! I had read the previous posts about aluminet. I was considering it and wondered if draping it over my tent would be okay. From what I've been reading, some folks do it and some don't. It is probably best to have some distance between the tent and the canopy but with a tall tent... I think I will leave the monkey hut to next year. I need to see it and talk to someone to really understand how it's put together. I'll keep my eyes out for folks with Kodiak or Springbar tents. After seeing the costs of the aluminet and other potential canopy solutions, I think I will have leave the canopy to last. I will have a great tent, and sure it'll get hot earlier than I'd probably like but I also need to afford some other necessities too. Like food and water! : ) The costs are adding up! I am excited about having a durable tent that I can use for years, though. Thanks for all the great advice!
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:58 am

YoppWorks wrote:What great reading!!! I had read the previous posts about aluminet. I was considering it and wondered if draping it over my tent would be okay. From what I've been reading, some folks do it and some don't. It is probably best to have some distance between the tent and the canopy but with a tall tent... I think I will leave the monkey hut to next year. I need to see it and talk to someone to really understand how it's put together. I'll keep my eyes out for folks with Kodiak or Springbar tents. After seeing the costs of the aluminet and other potential canopy solutions, I think I will have leave the canopy to last. I will have a great tent, and sure it'll get hot earlier than I'd probably like but I also need to afford some other necessities too. Like food and water! : ) The costs are adding up! I am excited about having a durable tent that I can use for years, though. Thanks for all the great advice!
Amy
Are you going alone, or are you part of a camp? If soloing, then look around near you for someone with good shade and ingratiate yourself early. You'll need someplace to chill for part of the day. Particularly your first 24-48 hours.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Post by Savannah » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:55 am

Threads merged . . .
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:14 pm

Here's a pic that I found of someone who draped aluminet over their Springbar. I suspect that guying it out would have kept it a bit cooler.

Image
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Post by gyre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:22 pm

I like the look.

Depends.
If you pull it out and leave open spaces, I found that bounced light put a lot of heat into the tent,
I wrapped mine completely in vinyl.
Made the difference.

That outlet told me they used to get the black 90-100% RDS from aluminet.
Not there currently.

It looks like Tenax's better meshes use a reflective layer over a 90% black layer.
Might be worth considering two layers.

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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:35 pm

gyre wrote:If you pull it out and leave open spaces, I found that bounced light put a lot of heat into the tent,
I wrapped mine completely in vinyl.
Made the difference.
Vinyl? Like, solid vinyl, or some kind vinyl camo netting? Vinyl sounds like it wouldn't breathe and would be miserable, but I'm sure it's different than I expect.

As for double layers, etc, I suppose I'm looking for a good, easy solution, rather than the absolute perfect shade solution. I'll have a swamp cooler to drop the temp further, so as long as I take of 10-15 degrees and get some shade from the Aluminet, I'd consider it pretty successful.
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gyre
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Post by gyre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Springbar currently are producing their Scout line, which are cheaper and use a cheaper canvas on the sides.
450 for a 10 x 14, 400 for the small one.
They only make them when they have the canvas available.

I used billboard vinyl to wrap, and it made all the difference in comfort, even blocking indirect light on the sides, which was crucial.
Cool till noon, tolerable till two.

I just asked springbar about dying their canvas, and they said it is possible to find a compatible technique.
Darker is cooler.

Canvas is going to work great with a swamp cooler, of course.
I didn't need one with enough shade.

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Canoe
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Post by Canoe » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:56 pm

gyre wrote:...I found that bounced light put a lot of heat into the tent...
Also contributing:
  • that sunlight has infrared heat energy
  • any sun-heated ground is radiating heat energy (line of sight)
Result:
  • All of the surrounding sun-heated ground is radiating heat under a raised side where it has line of sight.
  • Where the sun reaches under a raised side, the ground it heats there is free to radiate its heat towards the inside.
    • And depending on the light & heat reflectance properties of the backside/base of the side-cover (as you know, light/shiny reflects, dark absorbs), the portion radiating upwards may even be: contained/reflected inside, or absorbed and re-radiated inside.
gyre wrote:...even blocking indirect light on the sides, which was crucial.
Cool till noon, tolerable till two...
If you can see it, radiated heat can heat it.
Blocking radiated heat with a radiant barrier can provide a significant benefit.
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