Monkey hut and Rebar questions

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OnlyShreveportBurner
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Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by OnlyShreveportBurner » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:42 pm

Hey Guys!

Everything is coming together so nicely (I believe) for my first Burn. I have my trusty old tent (4 person Ozark) and have gotten my monkey hut almost complete except for actually assembling it off-playa to make sure I can do it right. Met another Birgin only 4 hours away who im picking up for Rideshare, and he seems like a super freakin cool guy. I just have a few questions I was hoping you awesome folks could help me out with.

1. Once my structure is assembled, how do I zip tie the tarp to it? I was thinking about using a knife to pop small holes in the tarp around the pvc to thread a zip-tie. This seems logical, although I worry the holes could cause the tarp to start ripping in high wind.

2. When I cut my rebar for my hut and tent stakes I didn't get all of them at a sharp angle, is it hard to drive a dull piece of rebar into the playa, and what type of hammer is best? I have a regular claw hammer as well as a leather mallet (which my dad says wont bounce on impact).

Many pre-emptive thanks!

Cj

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Bounce530 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:52 pm

Don't cut holes in your tarp. Ziptie, or bungee ball the the tarp to the pvc using the eyelets on the tarp.
The rebar will be pounded in just fine with blunt ends.
Use a small sledge hammer.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Savannah » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:59 pm

Does your tarp have grommets? That's the kind of tarp you want--a heavy duty silver tarp with grommets. No blue tarps; they're too thin.

My campmate in 2009 used a grommet kit to add some extra grommets, I think. I would not stab the tarp if I were you. You're right--it will probably tear.

We used bungee balls to secure the tarp to the ribs. I've never personally tried zip ties, although some folks use them.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by fresh » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:53 pm

OnlyShreveportBurner wrote:Hey Guys!

Everything is coming together so nicely (I believe) for my first Burn. I have my trusty old tent (4 person Ozark) and have gotten my monkey hut almost complete except for actually assembling it off-playa to make sure I can do it right. Met another Birgin only 4 hours away who im picking up for Rideshare, and he seems like a super freakin cool guy. I just have a few questions I was hoping you awesome folks could help me out with.

1. Once my structure is assembled, how do I zip tie the tarp to it? I was thinking about using a knife to pop small holes in the tarp around the pvc to thread a zip-tie. This seems logical, although I worry the holes could cause the tarp to start ripping in high wind.
what kind of tarp is it? This will definitely tear with that setup in moderate winds if it is any type of poly tarp. Are there no grommets? If so you can buy a grommet kit for cheap and put in your own. its easy as pie. You do not want to use zip ties because they are too rigid and could possibly snap. You want to use bungee balls instead. They have much more give. If something fails, it should be the tarp. I agree with Savannah, blue tarps suck. Anything get a heavy duty silver tarp, they are cheap enough.
2. When I cut my rebar for my hut and tent stakes I didn't get all of them at a sharp angle, is it hard to drive a dull piece of rebar into the playa, and what type of hammer is best? I have a regular claw hammer as well as a leather mallet (which my dad says wont bounce on impact).
A hand sledge works fine, . you do not need a sharp angle on the rebar, it goes right in. I was worried about this last year when I built one for the first time last year. I found the playa was actually a hell a lot easier to pound in the rebar than the rock field I tested at where I bent many a bars.


Good Luck!
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Savannah » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:56 pm

Don't forget to wear leather work gloves when you pound your rebar. Rebar injuries really suck.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Sic Pup » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:06 am

Savannah wrote: Rebar injuries really suck.
Ditto on the sledge hammer injuries or so I've been told. Alas, a leather glove does little to mitigate that.

Use one of these:
Image

Take your time, aim true and be relatively sober (or find someone who is) and above all be idle until you are (in terms of wielding heavy mallets and thrusting them at inanimate objects). Same holds true for moving targets.

I don't know what your time frame is but if you don't have the time to mail order the bungee balls (look into a trial Prime account on AMazon for quicker shipping but remember to cancel it) I did see them at my local Wallyworld.

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by SouthernExposure » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:04 am

I just got bungee balls for my MH through Home Despot. There are no shipping charges for on-line orders if you have them drop-shipped to your local store. Usually takes about a week at the most to get there.

BTW, ditto on the grommet kit. I have found 100 uses for mine once I got one and it is simply the right way to handle tying down a MH tarp.

Cheers :D

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by MacGlenver » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:21 am

Agreed. Don't cut your tarp or it will tear like hell. Also don't use zip ties. Use bungee balls. Zip ties snap and create moop and are not reusable.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by fresh » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:16 am

MacGlenver, Can you answer a question for me? I am pondering your idea of the non-inline spine using bike tubes for my second smaller hut. It will be the standard 20' rib by 10' length. SO my question is this, if the length of my hut is 10' and the length of the spine piece is 10', it would seem difficult to attach the bike tube/duct tape to the end ribs without it falling out. SInce it is only 10', I would only have one middle rib to get a solid attachment and that is not enough. I am thinking of connecting 2 piece together to make 11' feet or so and that should work? Also do you use 1" or 1"1/4 inch for spine? I figured it could be 1". Is there some trick I am missing?

I just don't wanna spend another $20 on connectors. THERE DAMN PRICEY!!!!
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by SouthernExposure » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:42 am

I know that you addressed this question to McGlenver, but I just faced this same question. There are two ways to do this. One is to add on another piece of the PVC to the top spine to lengthen it. Another approach is to set the front and back arches a little closer than 5' from the center one, maybe 2"-3" closer.

A word of advice for the MH. Measure the laid-out tarp and get the actual dimensions of it. Don't rely on the printed, nominal dimensions for your hut. You may need to make adjustments to the length of the arch and/or spine so that the tarp will fit correctly. I wound up having to add 9" to each arch and 29" to the length of the spine for the tarp to fit to the support structure the way that I wanted it to. BTW, if you need to make the spine longer, just use the $.87 1" PVC union to join pieces. I put them together, drilled small pilot holes and screwed in sheet metal screws to capture the pipes to the union. The spine will not be flexed and bent the way the arches are, as most loads on it are only linear compression.

BTW, the bicycle inner tube approach to binding the pipes together at the intersections is very easy to put together, looks to be plenty strong and still allows a certain amount of flexing in heavy wind loading. The guys down at the local bike shop start laughing when they would see me come in because they knew I was there only to scrounge through their garbage cans. Great idea.

SE

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by fresh » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:40 pm

thanks southern exposure! I will try it out! funny you talk about the tarp. I went with a white super heavy duty tarp that I got today. except it was just heavy duty. I will check it out this weekend to see if it is even worth using. I went with white since I am going for a brighter feel since it is not my main hut, but more of a lounge. If I dont like it, ill probably use for floor cover and get a silver one.


do you use one tube of each connection or can you split ithe tube in two?
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by OnlyShreveportBurner » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:50 pm

Thanks for all the help guys! I believe the tarp has grommets, but as some advised I shall add some more. I believe we actually have a grommet kit among the leatherworking gear. I would just like to say, Burners have been the most friendly, helpful, intelligent, resourceful, and genuine people I have ever encountered as a group, and I haven't even made it to the playa yet.

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by SouthernExposure » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:54 am

fresh wrote: Do you use one tube of each connection or can you split ithe tube in two?
I cut each inner tube in half after cutting out the valve section giving me 2 pieces about 38" long. I then slit each piece lengthwise so that I wound up with essentially 2 long straps of rubber.

Cheers :D

SE

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by fresh » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:25 am

SouthernExposure wrote:
fresh wrote: Do you use one tube of each connection or can you split ithe tube in two?
I cut each inner tube in half after cutting out the valve section giving me 2 pieces about 38" long. I then slit each piece lengthwise so that I wound up with essentially 2 long straps of rubber.

Cheers :D

SE
so you get 4 pieces out of one tube? and use one piece per joint? easy peasy!
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by SouthernExposure » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:43 am

fresh wrote:
SouthernExposure wrote:
fresh wrote: Do you use one tube of each connection or can you split ithe tube in two?
I cut each inner tube in half after cutting out the valve section giving me 2 pieces about 38" long. I then slit each piece lengthwise so that I wound up with essentially 2 long straps of rubber.
SE
so you get 4 pieces out of one tube? and use one piece per joint? easy peasy!
I only get 2 straps from each tube. I slit each one and open it up.

SE

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by claybcook » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:59 pm

Regarding the alternate Monkey Hut "spine" where a PVC tube is tied to the ribs by bicycle inner tubes rather than being attached to the ribs by PVC connectors as the official Monkey Hut plan shows. Questions:
1. Do you make any attempt to create a "notch" in the "spine" to help the ribs stay in place (maybe a connector, or a joint?) or are you tying a smooth section of the rib sleeve to a smooth section of the "spine" and counting on the tied rubber to prevent movement in the joint? Are you duct taping the sections first, or afterwards, for example.
2. Since the "spine" doesn't directly connect to the ribs, but hangs beneath them on bike tire tubes, is the "spine" merely a length of 1 1/4" PVC? Do you put sleeves in it (1" PVC sleeved into 1 1/4" PVC) so that it can move a bit?
3. Any unique playa-tested knots you're using when tying the tubing? Any close up photos of this tied connection?
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by SouthernExposure » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:03 am

As a binding material, the bicycle tube has several strengths, it lays flat on the PVC pipe allowing a full grip of the material face, you can stretch it and put the binding under good compression, it is inherently non-slip on the PVC and itself, and it's free. Concerning the questions:

1. When binding an intersection of rib and spine, wrap the bike tube around each PVC pipe a time or two to create a seat where both pipes can rest, then criss-cross the tubing to further prevent any slippage at the intersection. I would not notch the PVC as this would weaken it and would put it at risk of failure. The seat that you create with the tubing serves the same function as a notch. The only place that I used duct tape was to wrap the ends of the driven rebar as a cushion prior to placing the end of the ribs over them. It was just a way of protecting the PVC from the rebar.

2. The purpose of the spine is to provide lateral stability to the ribs and allows the distribution of any wind loading to the entire structure. I had PVC connectors on the spine, but they were to allow me to make the spine the correct length to fit the tarp. You really don't want the spine to move. The arched ribs is where most movement occurred as they reacted and flexed slightly in the winds and then were restored to their original shape when the wind let up. BTW, this movement was not radical, but was noticeable under severe conditions.

3. The bike tubing didn't need knots. By wrapping the tube on itself while stretching it, you effectively bind the wrap. Once you reach the end of the tube, run the loose end back under the last wrap and pull it tight. This should hold very well. As an additional precaution, you can tie a simple overhand knot near he end of the tube. This will act as a stop and further prevent the wrap from coming loose. I also made a quick inspection of these bindings every day or so. I don't recall ever having to tighten anything up. One thing that I did that made the bike tubing work even better was to wash it completely in detergent. This removes any oils or talc from the surface and lets it grab itself even better. I don't believe that I had any good photos of the intersections specifically, so, no.

Cheers :)

SE

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by claybcook » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:43 am

Thank you for the very explicit reply, exactly what I needed to hear.

I'm delaying my commitment to either spine design (tire wraps or connectors) for a bit longer while I accumulate tarps and stakes etc.

Part of my interest in the tube wrap design is to have an open end of the spine at the end of the structure. I'm curious about adding what would be an additional rib at the open end just like the ribs along the side of the MH. The end ribs would be arched in the same way and anchored in the same way and would provide a way to have either shade cloth or solid tarp partially or completely covering the openings. In addition to adding some more shaded floor space, it feels like it could deflect strong winds from entering the main structure. As a former sailor, I can imagine two triangular tarp sections bungee-balled to the open end rib and the last side rib closing off the entrance and deflecting wind elsewhere. I can also imagine taking one of these triangles off the open end rib and bringing it inside the main structure so that air can circulate more freely. Gives me a chance to adjust my sails according to the wind. Also, the addition of end ribs reinforcing the structure 90 degrees to the main ribs seems like it could help in that direction. Or else, I'm completely wrong and this is a waste of time and energy. Time will tell. Thanks again.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Strata » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:29 pm

Does the spine go under or over the ribs? I figured over, so as to help compress the ribs when the spine is tied down. Avoiding x and t connectors due to graphic pics on this site of jagged scary failure.

I'm extending the ribs with a middle 5 foot section, using sleeves at the joints.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1SNP ... =drive_web

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:54 am

Probably doesn't matter over or under. You could put it above the ribs to make the pipe not stick out into your head-room space. Then again, it might make the shape of the tarp have a bulge on top.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by lucky420 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:10 am

Strata wrote:Does the spine go under or over the ribs? I figured over, so as to help compress the ribs when the spine is tied down. Avoiding x and t connectors due to graphic pics on this site of jagged scary failure.

I'm extending the ribs with a middle 5 foot section, using sleeves at the joints.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1SNP ... =drive_web

First monkey hut, and I have a tendency to over engineer...

i just bring a couple of extra x fittings. never had one break, never needed the extra but good for piece of mind
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by EGAZ » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:59 am

I believe you mentioned in another post you were using strips of inner tubes to fasten the spine to the ribs. I'm with bbadger, don't think it matters.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by BBadger » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:49 pm

lucky420 wrote:i just bring a couple of extra x fittings. never had one break, never needed the extra but good for piece of mind
My monkey huts used the X-fittings, but they were also in the center of the city and had lots of cars and structures around to take the brunt of the wind. I'd probably stick with the long single pole if I were to do it again though, since it makes it easier to transport something of the same length in those bundles of poles and those X-fittings are just extra cost.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by claybcook » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:52 am

I'm getting to the experimental "erection" (if you'll pardon the phrase) part of the Hut build. No PVC X connectors, I've connected two 2 1/2 ft sections of 1 1/4" PVC with a 1/4" pin with washers top, middle and bottom with a cotter pin to keep it from falling out. The two sections can rotate relative to each other, but the pin is there mostly to keep the longer sections of 1" PVC from going past center. Now I want to wrap the intersection with bike tube material. I've got several tubes from the local bike shop and have cut out the valve section, leaving a round tube missing a small segment.
Do you use the full tube section to wrap the intersection, or do you split the tube lengthwise so as to have a flat piece of rubber? For some reason the previous explanations of this haven't made sense to me.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by claybcook » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:25 am

Updates on my MH variant:
Mostly standard from the original, however a few changes. To avoid the connector issues, I've pinned two 30" lengths of 1 1/4 pvc together with a 1/4 X 4" pin with washers and a cotter pin on the bottom to keep them together. The pin connects the rib connectors to the spine connectors and keeps the individual ribs/spine sections centered in the connector. When assembled, I'll wrap these with bike tubes so the pin doesn't bear much of the load. The only other change I'm attempting is to add a rib projecting out along the central axis of the spine. So, for a 15' MH, I'll have 4 ribs along the side and an additional rib extending from each end. I'm cutting shade mesh tarps into triangular "Jibs" ( I grew up sailing) so the ends will have shade and a bit of breeze coming through too. Because of the curve of the end ribs, these Jibs are not simple triangles, but have curved sides with a flat bottom. I have measured the shape twice, so it's time to cut once. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Strata » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:15 pm

Well, it took about 4.5 hours to pack the things, build the hut (with a few false starts), and take it all down and get the heck outta Baylands Park before it closed at sunset--- made it by 20 minutes. :-D

Skeleton of hut-- 30 feet long, 15 feet wide, 3 foot 1-inch PVC "extenders" within a 4 foot sleeve of 1.25-inch PVC at the rib bases.
Image

Spine sections are 7.5 feet long. Too long for the bungies I had, so I used ratchet straps. Might switch to bungies, ratchets were a pain to set up on ladder.
Image

Here is the hut skinned with my aluminet 24 foot x 30 foot tarp. Notice I ran paracord along the long edges, for two reasons-- helps with something to tie down the sides if needed, and I can tell the long sides from the short sides during setup.
Image

Finally, the proof that I got the measurements right-- my shiftpod fits inside with about 8 inches to spare on each side at ground level, and generous airflow space on the sides and top.
Image

On-playa, I plan to put shadecloth across the back arch by the shiftpod, about 2/3 of the way down the arch. That way the breeze can still come through but the main part of the 'pod should be shaded. I'll also be bungeeing up those trailing ratchet straps (if I stay with ratchets), and already have bright orange-n-yellow tennis balls to put over the tiedown stakes at the front and back.

I have a pair of ratchet straps sized to throw over the ribs, if I need more "hold it down" force on-playa as well.

What's your experience with the amount of time it "should" (ha ha, that word) take to build a monkey hut of that size? Now that we figured out how we are doing the layout and some other things, it should go faster, but playa time slows stuff down too. I'm guessing it would go faster if we had a second ladder and a crew of 3 or 4 instead of just the 2 of us.

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by ottomanrobot » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi Strata,
Thanks for the photos, you've built exactly what I am planning on building. I'd like to copy your design since I also have a Shiftpod. Would it possible for you to share a shopping list for the PVC materials?


Strata wrote:Well, it took about 4.5 hours to pack the things, build the hut (with a few false starts), and take it all down and get the heck outta Baylands Park before it closed at sunset--- made it by 20 minutes. :-D

Skeleton of hut-- 30 feet long, 15 feet wide, 3 foot 1-inch PVC "extenders" within a 4 foot sleeve of 1.25-inch PVC at the rib bases.
Image

Spine sections are 7.5 feet long. Too long for the bungies I had, so I used ratchet straps. Might switch to bungies, ratchets were a pain to set up on ladder.
Image

Here is the hut skinned with my aluminet 24 foot x 30 foot tarp. Notice I ran paracord along the long edges, for two reasons-- helps with something to tie down the sides if needed, and I can tell the long sides from the short sides during setup.
Image

Finally, the proof that I got the measurements right-- my shiftpod fits inside with about 8 inches to spare on each side at ground level, and generous airflow space on the sides and top.
Image

On-playa, I plan to put shadecloth across the back arch by the shiftpod, about 2/3 of the way down the arch. That way the breeze can still come through but the main part of the 'pod should be shaded. I'll also be bungeeing up those trailing ratchet straps (if I stay with ratchets), and already have bright orange-n-yellow tennis balls to put over the tiedown stakes at the front and back.

I have a pair of ratchet straps sized to throw over the ribs, if I need more "hold it down" force on-playa as well.

What's your experience with the amount of time it "should" (ha ha, that word) take to build a monkey hut of that size? Now that we figured out how we are doing the layout and some other things, it should go faster, but playa time slows stuff down too. I'm guessing it would go faster if we had a second ladder and a crew of 3 or 4 instead of just the 2 of us.

cheers,
Strata

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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Strata » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:03 pm

Sure, here is the diagram and parts list:
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1W0C ... BkaAA/edit

Note that I am uncertain about the 7.5 foot spine sections and am deliberating adding a pair of ribs so that I have the standard monkeyhut spacing of 5 feet per spine section. Am still waffling on this.
Engineer, Artist, Gardener, Slacker, Bodhisattva
BearHug * KF6NBZ * Comms9060
* 1995, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 2017 *

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Strata
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:37 am
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: Poly Paradise
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by Strata » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:08 pm

BTW, I got my 24x30 foot 70% aluminet tarp, banded and grommeted, from GrowersSolution.com. It came to $453 including tax and shipping, and I'm wondering if I got skinned along with the monkey hut. Hope you find better pricing-- and please let us know if you do!
Engineer, Artist, Gardener, Slacker, Bodhisattva
BearHug * KF6NBZ * Comms9060
* 1995, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 2017 *

ottomanrobot
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:07 pm
Burning Since: 2016

Re: Monkey hut and Rebar questions

Post by ottomanrobot » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:55 pm

Thanks a lot for the diagram and the list Strata. I am leaning towards the every 5 feet option for the ribs.

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