Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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FossaFerox
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:16 pm

lukewarmtofu wrote:fastenersuperstore discount code for August is

AUGUST

Anyone know if the 1/2" dia lags fit inside the chain-link setup figjam has?
If your get bigger chain, yes. I got 18" long 1/2" dia. Took them to home depot and found chain that fit.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:28 pm

FossaFerox wrote:
MacGlenver wrote:In case I havent posted it yet, this is the impact driver (corded) that I used last year. It. Kicked. Ass. $70 at Lowes.

Image
http://www.lowes.com/pd_189342-79992-PC ... Id=3880127
My campmate bought one of those to drive our 125 lag bolts. It arrived dead. We're panicking now as we were supposed to test it tonight to see if my inverter is up to the task of running it or whether we need to exchange the inverter... Did you run yours on a genny or an inverter? Any idea what the peak-load is during start up? I know it's running load is 4.3 amps but some power tools use 3-6x that when you start them...
I got mine at Lowes, so you might want to consider going to a B&M store to get a replacement. I ran mine off a Honda EU2000i -- I havent tried it off a car inveter. I don't know what the peak load at startup would be.
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Swope904
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Swope904 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:18 am

So whats everyone's recommenced lag length? Could I get away with 3/8" 8"?

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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:24 am

No, I wouldn't go with less than 14".

Playa conditions reported to be really fluffing on the 3 o'clock side with the soft top layer being 6"s!!! :shock:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:37 am

It's a fluffy year. Go deep or go fuck yourself (I say this with love) because anything half-assed WILL fuck your neighbors.

Observe.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Fan C » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:06 pm

chuckularone wrote:
Weebdog wrote:If you don't want to buy any hardware to tighten up your ropes and guy lines, try using a "Blake's Hitch". It is a locking slip knot simular to a "Prussik's knot.
http://www.animatedknots.com/blakes/index.php
I just tested this knot. (I used an old USB cable (Hey. I work a desk job, it's what I had on hand!)) I tied the knot in one end and a loop with a square knot in the other end. I hooked it over a doorknob. I stepped in the square knotted loop. It held and was still slideable after I took the weight off it. I did it again and bounced a couple times. The wire broke at the square knot and the Blake's Hitch was still slideable after removing tension. There was no slippage.

Thanks for showing me this knot!
I haven't used the blakes hitch in the field yet, though I do like it just practicing at home. I usually use a midshipmans hitch http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/midshipmans-hitch it's a little easier to tie under pressure than a taughtline hitch and it's intended for ships rigging so it'll hold on the playa

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Swope904
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Swope904 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:15 pm

Ehh I think I'm a go with rebar. More work but easier on the wallet.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:42 am

Keep in mind that rebar is a recurring cost while the inverter/driver are one off expenses and you'll get several years of use for each lagbolt. Over like 3-4 years it pays for itself if you have a big setup.

If you're only focused on this year? Well, rebar is fine for smaller setups but even without the long term savings I wouldn't want to rely on it for big setups. Last year was a mistake. Never again. My camp is driving 121 anchors for the shade structure by itself. When you break the cost of the driver and inverter down to cost per anchor and weigh THAT against the pain of driving/pulling rebar (never mind saving precious, precious playa time) it's worth it.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by strange love » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:38 pm

I wasn't aware that rebar has a shelf life, and don't count on inverters and drivers not breaking down out there. I've had a decent inverter crap out on me halfway through the week before.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:58 pm

strange love wrote:I wasn't aware that rebar has a shelf life, and don't count on inverters and drivers not breaking down out there. I've had a decent inverter crap out on me halfway through the week before.
None of the shade structure rebar we drove/pulled our first year was suitable for reuse. It was bent and coroded to hell. This was the long stuff, going 2.5' into the playa. The short ones we used for tents fared better and we expect to get another year out of them, but the galvanized lag bolts/stainless chain will last much, much longer.
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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Ratty » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:04 pm

I've used the same rebar since 2008. No visible, (or invisible) change in it. I have all lengths and some candy caned. I can't imagine what happened to their rebar. Pull it out by turning it with a pipe wrench. It takes no time at all and it's ok to spend a few minutes setting up and taking down camp.
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Swope904
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Swope904 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:27 pm

rebar deff seems like the better solution for long term use. I don't see lag bolts lasting longer then rebar.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:41 pm

Just go back and read the first page of this thread.

It's not about how long the bolts or rebar last, it's not having to stand over a sharp piece of rebar hitting it 40 times with a sledge hammer, which might slip and mash your foot and end your Burn right at the beginning. It's not tripping over the rebar before you have a chance to cap it, and hopefully all you walk away with is a big gash on your leg. It's not trying to hammer in a candy-caned piece of rebar, which is springy and the hammer keeps glancing off the curve, and just when you get it into the ground, the last hammer blow snaps the work-hardened part of the candy cane bend. It's not hammering and twisting and yanking at a stubborn piece of rebar that has apparently welded itself to the playa during the week.

There are applications where a nice big chunk of rebar sunk deep into the playa is the right choice. Most of my current uses of rebar are not.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:43 pm

Ratty wrote: it's ok to spend a few minutes setting up and taking down camp.
Yeah, I spend days setting up and taking down camp. Anything that shaves off a few minutes and the energy expended pounding and pulling rebar is well worth it. I am really looking forward to using the 100 lag screws that just showed up on my porch.

Fuck rebar. You know that shit that happens when your candy caned rebar starts to bend more and more instead of sink into the playa when pounding it and now you have to pull it out and start all over and then end up a with a big pile of corkscrewed rebar- Fuck that shit.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Sunbeam56 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:36 pm

Frenchie!!!
Just a little add on. I put some clear plastic tubing (like air hoses to fish tanks) on the bottom of the stack of bolts, chain, fenders... just to keep every thing in place during travel.
Dunno about the playa, but when we used them in Austin, to the ground, the tubing was invisible. Went into and out of the ground without any problem.

We have the bolts ready to go... pre assembled with the parts, and then all we have to do is rachet them in. :)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by skippy3k » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:04 am

So I just read the post in the "Playa Conditions 2014" thread about the 1" EMT shade structure using foot pads and lag bolts having the poles pull out of the foot pad and the whole side flipped over. (It is the same structure design that we use.) It got me thinking; has anyone drilled a hole in the bottom of the pole that goes into the foot pad so that the set screw (or bolt) goes through the pole instead of tight up against it? This would prevent the pole from pulling out. I know if you crank down those bolts against the pole, it shouldn't go anywhere, but we all like to over-engineer things anyway.

The only downside I can see is that due to the variations in where the set screw (or bolt) is in each foot pad, the hole would have to be drilled to specifically match that foot pad, meaning each pole would have to be matched with its corresponding foot pad on assembly. Makes setup a little more complicated.

And yes, if it was guy lined down, that probably would have prevented it from pulling out. But I'm not a huge fan of guy lines, unless they are absolutely necessary.

Does anyone know if this has been done before?
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:26 am

If you're careful to drill all the holes at the same on the feet and poles that won't be an issue.

I would use shear pins instead of bolts just to make it easier. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Invention1 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:55 am

FossaFerox wrote:Fig, are yours 14"? For some reason I had it in my head that the ones you use (and used for the pull-out test using your truck) are longer...
That's a rather personal question don't you think? OH you were talking about lag bolts I see.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by SLOKnightfall » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:37 am

skippy3k wrote:So I just read the post in the "Playa Conditions 2014" thread about the 1" EMT shade structure using foot pads and lag bolts having the poles pull out of the foot pad and the whole side flipped over. (It is the same structure design that we use.) It got me thinking; has anyone drilled a hole in the bottom of the pole that goes into the foot pad so that the set screw (or bolt) goes through the pole instead of tight up against it? This would prevent the pole from pulling out. I know if you crank down those bolts against the pole, it shouldn't go anywhere, but we all like to over-engineer things anyway.

The only downside I can see is that due to the variations in where the set screw (or bolt) is in each foot pad, the hole would have to be drilled to specifically match that foot pad, meaning each pole would have to be matched with its corresponding foot pad on assembly. Makes setup a little more complicated.

And yes, if it was guy lined down, that probably would have prevented it from pulling out. But I'm not a huge fan of guy lines, unless they are absolutely necessary.
You would probably want to do the same on the tops of the polls and drill holes for the top connectors also. If you don't then while the polls wont pull out of the feet, the roof will likely just pull off the top of the polls. In general I'd say that guy lines are fairly necessary for most large shade structures, as the feet are more to keep the structure from moving around. You are just looking for trouble just relying on the friction from the bolts to hold during a strong wind storm.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:42 pm

SLOKnightfall hit the nail on the head. If the wind is strong enough to rip the base polls free it'll rip the roof off if the base is more secure and you have no guy lines.

If you really don't want to guy out at least bind the top fitting and foot together while anchoring the shit out of the foot. Not as good (many eggs in each basket), but better than nothing.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by --Ever-- » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:43 pm

Looking to pull the trigger on some lag bolts.

Earlier someone linked the 3/8"x14" (18-8 stainless). A pack of ten is really pricey - $87.
http://www.wholesalebolts.com/hexheadla ... /8x14.aspx

Ten of the much thicker 5/8"x14" are only $31-$35, depending on zinc/galvanized (I think the latter is better for the playa?
http://www.wholesalebolts.com/hexheadla ... /8x14.aspx

Ten of the even thicker 3/4"x14" are only $43 (galvanized)
http://www.wholesalebolts.com/hexheadla ... /4x14.aspx

Why is the 3/8 so much more? Maybe the stainless?

It seems paying half as much for a much thicker bolt (5/8 or 3/4) is better. Am I missing something? Thanks!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:50 pm

Try www.fastenersuperstore.com. Way cheaper, but it's cutting it really close to be ordering ANYTHING this late and expecting to get it on time.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:01 am

Got mine, and bought some chain links and a bolt cutter for those nice guy line loops I saw in some of the pictures.

If you order now, you'll probably get it before the end of next week, but yeah, it's cutting it really close now.

Fastener Superstore is definitely cheaper, and you can get the lag screws from them via Amazon too! Anyway, who cares if they're stainless? You get 50 of them in a carton anyway, and you can hose them down. Plus they supposedly grip even better when rusty. Make sure your drill has the correct attachment for fitting to the head too.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by --Ever-- » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:14 am

Thanks guys.

Regarding the size, I see you still prefer 3/8" versus something larger. I trust this mean 3/8 is plenty?

Regarding the drill having the correct head, you just mean a normal socket wrench for the respective head (3/8, 5/8 whathaveyou)?

Finally, does an electric impact wrench need a special head? Or will any socket do?

Thanks guys.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:16 am

Those 3/8" should be plenty. They're solid steel, and longer than I actually expected. Quite frankly if FossaFerox and Figjam are confident in them, I am too, and they seem nice and strong. They're at least as good as that 3/8" rebar people use. I also attached some chains to them for easier tying. The hex head on them prevents the chain from coming off, and if I were really afraid I'd put a washer on them. I got a box of chain at the department store (Fred Meyers in this case), and a bolt cutter in their tool section. You can find that kind of thing at other hardware stores.

My socket set didn't have a connector that was compatible with my impact driver; I had to buy one outright. You don't want to be caught out there without that one small part that you need. The lag bolts have 9/16" heads on them; you need a 9/16" socket to drill them in. I'm almost considering getting another 9/16th" socket just in case this one gets lost to the sands. Otherwise, I'll be stuck with a wrench or need to use a 15mm socket, which isn't quite right. That size is also handy for bikes -- especially a deep one.

The impact drivers use a 1/4" shank with an indented area that the driver grabs onto. They look like this (the small side). In that case, the shank is connected to a 1/2" socket adapter, which then connects to my 9/16" socket I got in one of those many-in-one kits. You could probably get something like this that will attach to the 1/2" (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). I got one of these sets just in case, but I should've really studied the details because you need 9/16" and the largest in that set is 7/16" (so don't buy that set!). In addition to the Dewalt adapter, I got this 3-piece set, just so I could use some of the other sockets with the drill. It's an inexpensive Chinese brand and it's just in case.

Worse come to worst, go to your local hardware shop and ask them what will work. Milwaukee is a good brand, Dewalt too. They're all metal anyway, so even a cheapy would probably be okay. Just make sure you have them.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:04 am

--Ever-- wrote:Thanks guys.

Regarding the size, I see you still prefer 3/8" versus something larger. I trust this mean 3/8 is plenty?

Regarding the drill having the correct head, you just mean a normal socket wrench for the respective head (3/8, 5/8 whathaveyou)?

Finally, does an electric impact wrench need a special head? Or will any socket do?

Thanks guys.
The main reason I use the 3/8" is they fit THROUGH a tarp grommet, so buy whatever size you like. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:26 am

Just like with the chain, the head won't fit through the grommet.

Image

Image

This is what I drive them with.

I had to grind down one of my extensions to fit the drill chuck.

Image

If you save the holes from your bucket cooler, you can add a 12" nail and use them to hold down your ground cover!!! 8)

Image
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Joeln » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:32 am

Figjam - how long are those nails you are using through the ground cover?
I am planning on 12" nails to hold down my tent which is inside a playa-tested shade structure.
I figure the shade structure will give me substantial wind protection so my thought is the 12" nails will be sufficient.
I may scrape down through some fluff to set the nails into the deeper hardpack if that seems necessary once I'm on site.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:40 am

I know it's early, but I DID just say 12". :lol:

Because they're just holding the edge of the ground cover down to keep the wind from getting under it, it should be plenty. 8)

I don't tent, so not sure about that.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by skippy3k » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:09 am

After seeing how much force it took for my impact driver to sink 12" lag bolts into the ground, I glanced at my 1/2" socket set and decided no way would that be my backup. I am bringing a 1/2" drill as a backup in case the impact wrench craps out. THEN I will use the 1/2" socket wrench to tighten the lag bolts down if need be. I can't imagine the hell of screwing 12" or 14" lag bolts into the playa by hand. And I'm bringing spare socket adapters and sockets.
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