Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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skippy3k
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by skippy3k » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:51 am

mudpuppy000 wrote:For the grommets, securing with bungee balls will help it flex in the wind and be less likely to rip out the grommets.
This was odd. I had three bungee balls fail on my shade structure this year. Which isn't that unusual. What WAS unusual is all three failed on the days it was dead calm. Not a single breeze blowing through camp when suddenly a broken bungee "plopped" on the ground in front of me. I could imagine the other bungees saying "hold on Fred! You can do it" and it saying "hold firm boys, my time has come. Goodbye all!" as it released its hold on the tarp.

The next day I had two more fall from the heavens when it was calm. During the winds though...nothing. They all held. Weird.
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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:04 am

I save the balls and get better UV bungee cord.

None have failed YET!!! 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:11 am

Hey FIGJAM, the camp I was in used the lags, which held tight. I had the teardown job of removing them. Used a cordless impact. It was easy!!!
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The CO
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by The CO » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:29 am

I'M NEVER POUNDING A STAKE ON THE PLAYA AGAIN.

Figjam, it was delightful talking to you when you stopped by M*A*S*H. Your knowledge and expertise are only outweighed by your charm!

(Technical data: Milwaukee 18v cordless impact drove 10-14 lags on a single small battery. The larger batteries can do around 20. Biggest issue was driver motor overheating around #30. Bring a spare driver or do it in shifts.)
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Admiral Fukkit
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Admiral Fukkit » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:38 am

Or bring an air impact like I did. I just used the cordless because it was sitting right there and worked fine.
For a lot of lags, air is the way!

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Shoeshine
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Shoeshine » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:11 am

Just for shits and giggles one of my campmates set up a test rig for playa fasteners.

A 2x4 tripod, a trailer jack, a crane scale, and some lengths of chain. Did a live demo on-playa.

to keep it fair we used all 10" fasteners

re-bar
timber screw
lag screw

The re-bar failed under 36 kg of upward force and as soon as it lost grip, popped right out
Timber screw under 91 kg of force but it failed slowly and continued to grip w/ about 40 kg until the last 4" or so

*** Lag screw didn't fail until 202 kg of force was applied (almost 450 lbs of frikken force people!) , and as the close up photo shows it heaved the ground around it to a diameter of about 18" ***

now this is just direct upward force (never mind if the load was lateral to the fastener)
and these are just 10" (I used 18" for my structure - I'm now thinking this was way overkill)
driven in by a cheap Ryobi 18v impact driver

So... "SCIENCE !!! BITCHES"

props to Kevin aka Risqué of camp DIY
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Shoeshine » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:20 am

side note... 4, yes four, 18" lags attached to a cargo net w/ ratchet straps over my hexi didn't budge a bit during the Sat. night blow.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Papa Bear » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:49 am

Shoeshine wrote: (I used 18" for my structure - I'm now thinking this was way overkill)
Apparently mine is too. I not only used the 18" lags for my 16' Mongolian yurt, I used 18 of them (6 anchoring the base, 6 as tiedown points for ropes crisscrossing the roof, and 6 holding the roof cap down on the top). But then, as easy as it was to put these in and take them out (I use the Harbor Freight corded impact driver attached to the camp genny), why not?

I jokingly told my campmates that if my structure budged even a couple of inches, we were all in serious trouble. Apparently I was more right than I knew. Would love to see what that test reveals for the holding power of an 18-incher.

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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:05 am

Outstanding demo!!!!!!!!! (Golf clap) 8)
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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:23 am

Love seeing those numbers!

Question: Did I mess seeing the diameter of Timer Screw and Lag Screw?
Shoeshine wrote:... and these are just 10" (I used 18" for my structure - I'm now thinking this was way overkill)...
Depends on where in the playa they go in. Up to the top ~6" (?) may be soft soil - it's the lower soil that really grips great.
Wind loads on a 8' wall yurt can be 2250 to 4500 lbs in 75 mph winds, depending on channelling of wind (less if you get sheltering not channelling - YRMV - don't count on it).
Micro-bursts can dump 150 mph winds straight down then outwards in all directions - all bets are off.
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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:48 am

Would probably still have structural failure before anchor failure.
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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:37 am

I have a real boat at home... maybe I should get a lag screw anchor instead of a Danforth, and about 200 feet of ratchet extensions...
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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:57 pm

Hmmm
And if you used your air tools and a long air hose, you could drive the lag screw in and have an air supply too!
(just drinking and thinking)

p.s
Shoeshine, in case I might be misunderstood, my vote is for sticking with the 18".
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Shoeshine » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:23 am

hey Canoe, yeah I probably will too...

and all the fasteners were 1/2", good catch
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by melodiousdirge » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:02 pm

Hi All; I just wanted to share my lag bolt experience from this year. I bit the bullet and went waaay overkill with the bolts I bought - 5/8" x 24" outght to do it, eh?

So the good:
My impact driver could put them in all the way
They were HELLA strong. There was seriously no f'n way any of that wind was moving any of the lags. 5 bolts on my 24' dome, and it didn't even wiggle during any of the wind we had

The bad:
They were MUCH more difficult to drive in than I anticipated. I don't know if the playa was harder this year than what I've experienced before, but once they hit about 8", the impact driver switched to, well, impact mode, and by the time they were 12-15" in things were moving very slowly. I killed the impact driver battery putting 5 bolts in. This was a big surprise for me - in 2014 I used some 3/8" x 18" lags and my little dewalt drill (not driver, drill) put them in without complaining. I guess going to a much larger diameter had significantly more of an effect than I thought. Could also be that with the rain this summer, the deeper playa was still damp and sticky, making it hard to drive into. I dunno. It was a severe enough limitation that I actually gave up and hammered in some of the 18"x1/2" ones I had that held my awning poles. This of course ruined the heads and made them hard to get out.

Anyone else notice lags being very difficult to drive in this year?
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:43 pm

I've always said it was comparable to screwing one into a 2x4.

Try it at home and see what you think.

The underplaya is very similar to the dried clay we get here, and I wouldn't even attempt it without my 1/2" heavy drill. (like a holehog)

Even my 3/8"x18" start to bog the last couple of inches!!! :lol:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by SnowBlind » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:16 pm

melodiousdirge wrote:I guess going to a much larger diameter had significantly more of an effect than I thought.
We had 14" 3/8" diameter and 18" 1/2" diameter. The 1/2" seemed to go in *significantly* slower and harder than the 3/8. So going to 5/8 I wouldn't be surprised at all if those were a bitch to put in.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:20 pm

The last 2 inches of driving in my 18" lags was slow going. Sometimes I didn't even bother "burying" the heads, leaving the chain link easier to use, and removal was faster than those lags I drove a little under the surface.

BEWARE of deep socket swiveling sockets: take care to make sure they are lined up as straight as possible when beggining the removal process. If they are swiveled just a little, the impact driver may translate that off-centeredness to your wrists with significant ferocity!

As mentioned before, I found great use for the "3rd" links I cut open to release the two links needed for the lags. I used those broken links for the 14" lags on the numerous tent straps between the four corners.

The lags are now power washed and probably slowly gaining some corrosion, which, from this thread, doesn't seem a bad thing at all: more grip!

Or, maybe I'll spray some with something gooey... :D

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:41 am

Seems like a few in this thread use the Harbor Freight 1/2" electric impact driver. They are on sale for $39 October 16-17-18, which is nice as their usual "sale price" is $45 and the rarely used "Reg. price" is $69. If you dare buying their impact sockets, there is a 13 piece 1/2" set for $18 in the same sale, although I'd personally go for the single sockets from Home Pro or Lowes. HF will replace SOME of their sockets, but if broken on the playa, what good is that?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Papa Bear » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:58 am

For critical stuff like this, I like to bring at least one backup anyway. Driver *and* socket.

$39 makes that a lot more palatable.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by VultureChow » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:00 pm

Count Grai and I as lag bolt converts. Though we used large washers instead of links since there were already loops on our tent and shade structure anchor points.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by sparr » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:16 am

Home Depot "PASSING LINK CHAIN ZINC #2/0" fit my 3/8" lag bolts. It's rated 450 pounds WLL, and was much easier to cut than the 1/4" and 3/16" proof chain that most folks seem to be using. I was able to use small bolt cutters to cut one link every 10 seconds (two passes per link).
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Elliot » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:15 pm

I use three links instead of two. With only two, I found that the second link would often get pinched against the ground. With a third link, I am sure to have a free link to hook to.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Capinator » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:36 pm

We had great success this year with 3/8 x 12" nails and a 3/8" fender washer. You can pound them all the way down to avoid injury, then use a claw hammer or crow bar to get them out. The washer keeps the line from sliding off of the end. They are about 70 cents a piece when you buy them in bulk.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:36 pm

Capinator wrote:We had great success this year with 3/8 x 12" nails and a 3/8" fender washer.
I've used this same combo for many burns, but only for the "non-corner" tie-downs for my tent.
For the four corner tie downs, I've used candy cane rebar until this year when I used 14" lag screws.

The shade structure has much more potential to put stress on it's anchors, so I use 18" lag screws.

As my tent has straps for anchoring it to the ground, I use my broken links connected to the two links on the lag screw instead of potential
problems with the threads of the lag screws eating into the straps.

I know there are other pictures in this amazingly long lag screw thread, but here's another pic (the 3/4" and 9/16" are the sizes of impact sockets needed:
Lag screws info.JPG
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:31 pm

I use the big nails for holding down ground tarps. They work fine for that, but all I have to do is wiggle them a little with vise grips and they pop right up. Wouldn't use them on the playa for tie downs.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by SquirrelHead » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:22 am

I will definitely be switching to lag screws next year. Rebar is such a pain in the butt to hammer in and pull out. Plus it's another reason to add power drills to the mix of gear. :D
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by mooserider » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:29 am

Another vote for lag screws. I was a real popular dude in camp because I brought a box of 3/8x14" lag screws, some chain link pieces, and a cordless impact driver. I didn't need them myself (if anything was going to blow a 16-ton motor home over, we would be in deep ****), but everyone in my camp was borrowing lag screws from me. Should have brought 2 boxes; the die-hard rebar fans had to fall back to rebar (and the rebar puller during strike) when I ran out of lag screws. I'm glad our midway exhibit was shielded by the tent structures, because we only had enough lag screws left to half-secure our display shelves (2 per shelf unit instead of the planned 4). It did take me forever to track down the impact driver and the sockets, since they wanted to grow legs. :?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by ereva » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:12 pm

we made a video because it was just too good to be true (and because i couldn't find one when i was researching this thread last year) figjam, thank you so much. i made a lot of converts out there on the playa with this video! http://burninghomesandgardens.me/2015/0 ... e-changer/

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DoctorIknow » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:04 am

After a few weeks of stalling, I cleaned up my 14" and 18" lags...

I want to, again, thank FigJam and all posters here for the hard and soft sell approaches that won me over.

Time for the my lags and me to exit this thread, which might increase to 100 pages by this time next year...
lag screws stored.JPG
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