Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:11 am

BUMP: For those new to lag screws and curious, read the entire 24 pages.

Last July 11, I posted herein that I was going to try mule tape instead of chain links.
This is the typical 3 link chain and lag combo:

3 links on lag.JPG


I wanted to try mule tape...just a short length of it, a square knot, and loop it over the lag:

first mule on lag.JPG



As anyone using chain links knows, it is a pain in the ass, no matter what tools you use, to cut the chain into a three link piece.

My camp and another tried mule tape in 2017, and it worked out very well.

Let's compare:

5/16 welded chain
Cost: $2.83/ft
Strength: 1900lb
Price of links per lag screw: about $2 (remember, for every three link set, the fourth link is cut and not used.

3/8 welded chain
Cost $3.48/ft
Strength: 2600lb
Price of links per lag screw: about $3

3/4" mule tape
Cost: $0.6 to $0.9 per ft, depending on length you purchase
Strength: 2400lb
Price of mule tape per lag screw with washer: about $0.18

This year, I'll be tying down some 2x4's (wider at base) with mule tape.
These are so tight they sing like a guitar string!
The knot used is a bowline: a critical knot to learn, and with "slippery" mule tape, it can always be untied easily)
(note the fuel line insert to prevent abrasion)

mule tape going thru 2x4s.jpg
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DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:21 am

underscored wrote:Thank you FIGJAM and others for your contributions here.

Over the past couple of years I've been using the information you've provided to improve our situation at the camp and I've never once been disappointed.

I wanted to see if anyone had experience erecting wooden 4x4s using a Simpson Strong E-Z Base to use as a frame for a shade structure. This can be secured with 4 lag screws:

Image

Most of the designs I see are using 2x4s for the posts, but I thought this could be a more solid setup.

One of my concerns is that the lag screws might be close enough that they loosen up the packed playa. Is there a rule for how close one could drill lag screws without this becoming a problem?

Thanks for the help!


I looked at that unit, and didn't like it at all, as the lag screws would have been WAY too close together, and the metal they used was laughable in that it was very thin, and much too short. I never intended to not have additional bracing, but these things in the pic above are not only flimsy, but also not cheap.

As an alternative, I had 35 custom made for me, more expensive, but very very nice.

base plate for 4x4.jpg
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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:40 am

I love the lengths that Burners go to in order to build a fabulous camp.

Doctor, thanks for taking the time to share.
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Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Kenshiro » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:17 pm

DoctorIknow wrote:BUMP:

first mule on lag.JPG


Nice. I’ve been wondering about this exact same thing so it’s nice to see someone’s “field tested” the concept and had success with it already, so to speak.

Image

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Strata
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Strata » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm

Our 3/8 in x 18 in lag bolts bent severely in the Tuesday afternoon squall at the event this past year (2017). We had 9 in above and below for monkey hut ribs. Do you think half inch lag bolts will do appreciably better, or are we dooming ourselves by leaving 9 in of lever above ground?

The hut stayed up, though it did acquire a jaunty slant forward. :lol:
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Popeye
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Popeye » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Test it.
Take a 3/8 bolt and put it in a well anchored vice at 9". Slide a 4' or whatever pipe over the bolt and attach a spring scale at a measured and marked point on the pipe. pull on the lever (pipe) until the lag bends. Have a buddy watch the scale to see how much tension is on the scale. If the scale reads say 100 pounds and you are pulling at the 4 foot mark you have 400 ft. pounds on the lag. Repeat with 1/2 inch.

If the bolts bent without breaking the plastic pipe I'd think the bolts where pretty cheap steel.

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Popeye
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Popeye » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:00 pm

If you drilled a hole in the center of a pipe cap and drove a lag bolt into the ground through the hole, the leg of the monkey hut could sit in the cap and there would be much less leverage on the lag. You might want to thread a short nipple into the pipe cap to keep the leg from jumping out.
I usually think of a threaded cap but unthreaded tubing type caps are available which are cheaper and lighter.
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Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Kenshiro » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:03 pm

My recollection is resistance to bending goes up by the 4th power as you increase diameter. In theory going to 1/2” from 3/8” would be a little over 3 times the strength. So yes it would be appreciably stronger.

That said, testing is the best way to know if it will be enough.

And that said as well, I think I would avoid relying on these things loaded in bending modes for primary structural integrity.

DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:59 am

I went to 1/2" not because of the 18" length, (which of course is very nice) but because the 14" x 3/8" would bend very VERY easily...shockingly so. I only use the 14" for all those tie downs on my 13x8 tent BETWEEN the four corners, which have 18" lags. I used to use 12" nails but the 14" lags are so much more fun and easier on the old carpal tunnel syndrome. :D

The price difference is huge between 14" x 3/8 vs. 18" x 1/2, currently, with shipping included, $1.46 vs $3.59 per piece, and you have to get 50 of the 14" and 10 of the 18", on amazon, from the Fastener SuperStore, Inc.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:36 am

My hardware store just ordered me 25 of the 16 by ½. They are $1.39 + tax. I thought that was a great price. Still waiting for my pickup order.
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Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah
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Kenshiro
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Kenshiro » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:34 pm

Ratty wrote:My hardware store just ordered me 25 of the 16 by ½. They are $1.39 + tax. I thought that was a great price. Still waiting for my pickup order.

Where is this? I want to help convince my camp to convert to lags this year, and 1/2” this cheap would probably help a LOT.

DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:00 pm

Ratty wrote:My hardware store just ordered me 25 of the 16 by ½. They are $1.39 + tax. I thought that was a great price. Still waiting for my pickup order.


I've tried ordering from various local suppliers (Sacramento) and checked out all recommendations in this thread, and never have I seen prices this low. The worst quote I ever got was $5 for one 18" x 1/2".

Ratty: Are they zinc plated? I'm not sure that would make a big difference, but, although rust happens, I believe it might be mitigated somewhat by the plating. After three burns with the same lags (and vinegar soak/power wash after the burn) the rust has not eaten away at the threads.

And, it's all about the threads. I remember a post in this thread where someone was pounding in lag screws. NOPE. I make a "crater" about 2-3" deep, and pound in the lag about 5-6 inches in the playa before impact wrenching it. The "crater" is important as the first few inches of playa has no mass at all. For those who don't know, the real holding power might start at 8" or 14". I've found that it can vary just around a 12x20 shade structure. Sometime the impact wrench struggles when the lag is still 8" above ground, sometimes it spins freely all the way down except the last inch. YMMV.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:45 pm

I got them! $24 for 16, zinc, 16 inch by half inch. I don't know why he ordered 16 of them. I wanted 25. That is the regular price. Including tax. Out the door. $1.50 each. Golden State Lumber. All over the SF bay area.
The threads only go up 8 inches but thats plenty. Check one thing off my list.

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Traveller in Time
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Traveller in Time » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:06 am

oil for storage to mitigate rust
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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:52 pm

A bucket of oily sand keeps your shovels sharp and clean. Only a little oil of your choice
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I a recovering swagaholic I have to resist my grabby nature VultureChow
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krly
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby krly » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:32 pm

So, some of you folks are using lag screws for your monkee hut legs ? Is that working better than 2' rebar used on 1" pvc arches ?
Thanks..........

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torrey.smith
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby torrey.smith » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:52 pm

krly wrote:So, some of you folks are using lag screws for your monkee hut legs ? Is that working better than 2' rebar used on 1" pvc arches ?
Thanks..........


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