Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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sparr
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by sparr » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:52 pm

After a few years of using 3/8x14" I am actually downgrading to 3/8x12" this year so that I can upgrade from shiny zinc to hot dipped and not worry about corrosion as much.

I might also get some bigger ones, since I've failed to sell my big makita driver and I want something for it to do if I bring it.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by jacquesio » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:29 pm

DrCook wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:50 pm
I was looking for a solution other than chain links to use with lag screws, because the hardware stores where I live (NYC) wouldn't make all the cuts for me. I settled on climbing anchors, the ones rock climbers use to attach their ropes to a cliff in case they fall. They worked really well last year and our camp has now standardized on them.

For 3/8" diameter (up to 14") lags we used these: https://www.backcountrygear.com/zinc-pl ... btech.html (I'm not affiliated with this site, and they're widely available if you find a better price elsewhere on the interwebs)
I'm only missing the chain links from my first lag screw adventure. This looks like an awesome alternative! Have you had any trouble with rust on those?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Why get those specialized chunks of metal for more than the cost of the lag screws themselves?

I bought a box of run-the-mill chain from a department store for like $10 for about 30ft of chain link or something. Then bought a generic bolt cutter at the same store for about $25. That's $35 (maybe less, I forget) and you have all the chain links you want.

The best part is that now I own a bolt cutter that I can use for other stuff.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by motskyroonmatick » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:48 pm

BBadger wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:05 pm
Why get those specialized chunks of metal for more than the cost of the lag screws themselves?

I bought a box of run-the-mill chain from a department store for like $10 for about 30ft of chain link or something. Then bought a generic bolt cutter at the same store for about $25. That's $35 (maybe less, I forget) and you have all the chain links you want.

The best part is that now I own a bolt cutter that I can use for other stuff.
Pfffffffftttttt! What? Whatcha going to do? Liberate green bikes with those bolt cutters? Maybe help a damsel or dude in distress? Cut the lock off of something when the rightful owners can get in touch with the lock owner? Save somebody's day?

Wooooo! Yeah damn right you will! Nice!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by BBadger » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:43 am

You can't have a "Thank the bolt cutter" moment without a bolt cutter!

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by sparr » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:15 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:48 pm
Pfffffffftttttt! What? Whatcha going to do? Liberate green bikes with those bolt cutters? Maybe help a damsel or dude in distress? Cut the lock off of something when the rightful owners can get in touch with the lock owner? Save somebody's day?

Wooooo! Yeah damn right you will! Nice!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by jacquesio » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:31 pm

Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Yeah, I couldn't stomach the price. Ended up going to HD in 3 trips to get 60x 1"x3/8" 3-link chain segments. They were super nice about cutting so much and we had great conversations. End result is about 30lbs of 60 very useful chain anchors for around 60 bucks. And galvanized! Between those, a bunch of screws, a great tool, and 100 washers I now feel truly prepared.

Also, thanks to whoever mentioned that sometimes the second link gets pinned, making 3 links useful. Great idea, and I plan to do some double anchoring with them as well.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by bhearn » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:10 pm

DrCook wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:30 am
We used both the Ryobi impact driver and impact wrench at our camp last year and they worked great. The wrench has more torque, so if all you're using it for is driving lag screws at the Burn, get that one. The driver also screws stuff in (it needs an adapter to make it into the square drive that is native to the wrench), so if you plan to also drive screws get that one.

Both drove 14" lags pretty easily, but in either case I recommend the high capacity battery, it improves performance noticeably and lasts longer between charges. If you're using 18" lags I recommend the wrench over the driver, the extra torque might be necessary.
This Ryobi impact wrench comes with one 4Ah battery. Is that sufficient for one burn? Anchoring a hexayurt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-18-Vo ... /302648209

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:38 am

bhearn wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:10 pm
This Ryobi impact wrench comes with one 4Ah battery. Is that sufficient for one burn? Anchoring a hexayurt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-18-Vo ... /302648209
It would take some remarkable circumstance for it to not be enough, but bring the included charger anyway.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Token » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:26 am

Sweet Cheeseits, what are y’all building that you need 60 anchors?

I’d put up hundreds of square feet of shade with a dozen at most.

There is some serious overthinking round these parts.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by DrCook » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:27 pm

bhearn wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:10 pm
This Ryobi impact wrench comes with one 4Ah battery. Is that sufficient for one burn? Anchoring a hexayurt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-18-Vo ... /302648209
That battery should be fine for a single yurt. And if you don't have a way to charge it and the battery dies you can probably find someone else with a ryobi charger + generator. If I'm sober and in a good mood and you stop by our camp I might even be able to charge it for you (no guarantees!)

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Always bring your charger!!
Finding someone with the right charger is possible but a long shot.
Finding someone who will let you plug in your charger to charge your battery isn’t unlikely at all.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by jacquesio » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:10 am

Token wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:26 am
Sweet Cheeseits, what are y’all building that you need 60 anchors?

I’d put up hundreds of square feet of shade with a dozen at most.

There is some serious overthinking round these parts.
It's overkill, on purpose. However, we do have a couple thousand square feet of tall shade structures which will require about 32 or so.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am

Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:25 am

danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am
Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
So I dunno about a square knot, but mule tape is flat and not round so that could potentially make a difference.

I got some 3-link chain for last year and mule tape + washer, and the mule tape never came undone, was VERY solid. I'm not even going to bother with the chain anymore.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips ... ng-anchor/

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:51 am

Drizzt321 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:25 am
danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am
Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
So I dunno about a square knot, but mule tape is flat and not round so that could potentially make a difference.

I got some 3-link chain for last year and mule tape + washer, and the mule tape never came undone, was VERY solid. I'm not even going to bother with the chain anymore.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips ... ng-anchor/
Did you use a mule tape loop for the lag, and then mule tape for the strap to secure the leg to the playa? I am going up over the fitting at the top of the leg and was going to use a truckers hitch to secure the long strap to the loop. I hope I am explaining this right. Wondering if the water loop will hold the long strap as well?
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:37 am

danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:51 am
Drizzt321 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:25 am
danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am


Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
So I dunno about a square knot, but mule tape is flat and not round so that could potentially make a difference.

I got some 3-link chain for last year and mule tape + washer, and the mule tape never came undone, was VERY solid. I'm not even going to bother with the chain anymore.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips ... ng-anchor/
Did you use a mule tape loop for the lag, and then mule tape for the strap to secure the leg to the playa? I am going up over the fitting at the top of the leg and was going to use a truckers hitch to secure the long strap to the loop. I hope I am explaining this right. Wondering if the water loop will hold the long strap as well?
I used mule tape with a water knot to form a loop, and then I put the loop through itself around the lag screw which would tighten down to form a loop I could tie off to. So it's basically just replacing the chain, and then I tie down to the mule tape loop. This way you can also re-tighten easily without having to redo everything.

I'd use ratchet straps or put the truckers hitch in over the top of the leg, then tie down or use a Tautline Hitch or similar to make an adjustable knot in your line. You're talking about regular rope, not flat webbing such as mule tape, yes?

If you want a single length, I'd tie off with an overhand knot (or two) to the lag screw, position it how you want, then tie in the truckers hitch at the tension you want. Or the reverse, truckers hitch, approximate where you want the lag screw, double overhand knot onto the lag screw and then have a slight tension where you place the point on the ground, and then as you drive it into the ground it'll take up the tension. That's assuming you're guying outward. If it's straight down you'll need to make sure the knot has slight tension just above the surface of the Playa so it doesn't put too much strain on your structure.

Frankly I'd do like I do, create a loop you can tie off to, and then secure as if it was the bit of chain or rebar.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by jacquesio » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:11 pm

danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am
Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
I was eyeballing the wire rope segments at HD, the kind with crimped loops at either end. They sell them in short lengths with loops on each end. Don't how strong they are but looks really useful for weird attachment scenarios like yours...

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by danibel » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:43 pm

Drizzt321 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:37 am

I used mule tape with a water knot to form a loop, and then I put the loop through itself around the lag screw which would tighten down to form a loop I could tie off to. So it's basically just replacing the chain, and then I tie down to the mule tape loop. This way you can also re-tighten easily without having to redo everything.

I'd use ratchet straps or put the truckers hitch in over the top of the leg, then tie down or use a Tautline Hitch or similar to make an adjustable knot in your line. You're talking about regular rope, not flat webbing such as mule tape, yes?

If you want a single length, I'd tie off with an overhand knot (or two) to the lag screw, position it how you want, then tie in the truckers hitch at the tension you want. Or the reverse, truckers hitch, approximate where you want the lag screw, double overhand knot onto the lag screw and then have a slight tension where you place the point on the ground, and then as you drive it into the ground it'll take up the tension. That's assuming you're guying outward. If it's straight down you'll need to make sure the knot has slight tension just above the surface of the Playa so it doesn't put too much strain on your structure.

Frankly I'd do like I do, create a loop you can tie off to, and then secure as if it was the bit of chain or rebar.
I was going to use mule tape for all. I hate those ratchet strap things. They make my brain hurt. I can figure out knots, but those things - MEH. Thank you for the reply. I will have to go back re-read the whole thing again this evening to get it solid in my little pea brain.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:50 pm

Really? Ratchet straps are incredibly easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZoleY-ol4w

Like I said, it's going to be a bit of a pain to properly tension a single length unless you can position both a tie a knot afterwards at the proper tension. Or get some turnbuckles. Strong ones though, not the small ones that are only good for a hundred or so pounds of force.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:21 pm

jacquesio wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:11 pm
I was eyeballing the wire rope segments at HD, the kind with crimped loops at either end. They sell them in short lengths with loops on each end. Don't how strong they are but looks really useful for weird attachment scenarios like yours...
This is what I’ve finally gotten around to doing for this year. Having to retension organic/polyfiber-based ropes all week is irritating. Set-and-forget is much more appealing.
Image

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:35 pm

That'll do donkey, that'll do.

Giving me some ideas, but at least for my personal stuff it tends to be a bit organic and different for each Burn so being able to have different lengths on the fly (paracord) is useful. For camp stuff we use ratchet straps, but since the basic structures are not going to change next year I can probably do this. Put these as guy lines across the EMT walls ("internal"), and should hold up nicely and a nice fixed length. Probably use the same lengths for some guy lines going out for the places (like the front) where we them open for walking in and out.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:40 pm

jacquesio wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:11 pm
danibel wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:44 am
Drizzt321 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Nice, but pricey. I do the mule-tape, water knot and flat washer method. And that site looks cheaper than Amazon.
Is the water knot more secure than a square? I did a test run of my shade mule tape this weekend, and I am not feeling confident at all with mule loops. Thinking about running out to HD this evening and buying up a long chain to cut into 3 links. I have a BRH shade and I am converting to lags - one hiccup I found is that the legs have a nut washer thingie welded right where the leg meets the footie. So the leg isn't going all the way down. Even if I turn the leg upside down, the welded nut still interferes with the fitting at the top. sigh. I don't want to use rebar in the legs, but I don't want this 36 by 20 shade to turn into a killer kite either. advice?
I was eyeballing the wire rope segments at HD, the kind with crimped loops at either end. They sell them in short lengths with loops on each end. Don't how strong they are but looks really useful for weird attachment scenarios like yours...
If it's something like https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3- ... /203958878, even 3/16th wire rope, at least this one, is rated at 840lbs. That'll be fine unless you've got quite big structures with a lot of sail area.

Better is what Kenshiro which seems like he made is own. Buy a spool, appropriate fittings and matching crimper and make your own to length. If you need a length that's pre-made that may be cheaper, you'll have to price it out depending on how many you want. Just don't make your loops too big compared to the washer on the lag screw as per above.

EDIT: Learn something every day! It's called Swaging (example tool) and ferrule and stop for the fittings. Makes me want to do this even more so I have an excuse for nifty tools like this.
EDIT2: And apparently here's how to use it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfLY6mOBzJ0

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Guard Dawg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:34 pm

Not sure the pull-out strength of a 12 inche lag screw in lakebed. Shorter length may be more appropriate or sufficient

Pros:

Easy installation and removal

Safety like screw hexhead can be stalled sub-grade presenting foot injuries.

Light weight. Much lighter than rebar..

Cons:

Requires installation tool.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Str ... 914018-_-N
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Guard Dawg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:38 pm

Eco-friendly Lag screw installation tool. No electricity needed.

https://m.sears.com/craftsman-18-in-spe ... 944161000P
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Kenshiro » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:57 pm

Image

In my case the wire rope solution is perfect. This is the base of the shade structure I built that fits around and over my Shiftpod. Not too bad, in retrospect I could have done a number of things better, but it’s covered the basics alright the last few years and is now even a little more brainless to put together and maintain.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Drizzt321 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:38 am

Guard Dawg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:38 pm
Eco-friendly Lag screw installation tool. No electricity needed.

https://m.sears.com/craftsman-18-in-spe ... 944161000P
Sure, that'll work. Just make sure you have the right driver for that and the lag screw. A ALOT more work than a battery driver, but no reliance on batteries. I got a similar one for last year as a backup. Did not use it. 2 4ah batteries that came with it were plenty.
Kenshiro wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:57 pm
Image

In my case the wire rope solution is perfect. This is the base of the shade structure I built that fits around and over my Shiftpod. Not too bad, in retrospect I could have done a number of things better, but it’s covered the basics alright the last few years and is now even a little more brainless to put together and maintain.
Nice. Yea, you have a nice known shape/size/length there, so easy to pre-make them and reuse them. Maybe go from the higher cross poles rather than the lower ones? Well, too late since you already have them, but even so that's a right solid base structure there. EMT and PVC, the 2 basic Playa building blocks =D

Although, I'd still be a little concerned about the top part of if it's tarps, since that can really catch the wind well. I'd want anchors from what the tarp is attached to to the ground. If it's just shade cloth whatever you're doing is probably sufficient.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Token » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:38 am

Ooh, now I’m curious how much flex that thing is gonna have being lots of PVC.

If I were responsible for keeping that upright for 9 days, I would try to tie and strap things such that all horizontal members have tension on them and are pulling away, while the shade cloth is holding things together and compressing them.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by jacquesio » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:46 am

Kenshiro wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:21 pm
jacquesio wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:11 pm
I was eyeballing the wire rope segments at HD, the kind with crimped loops at either end. They sell them in short lengths with loops on each end. Don't how strong they are but looks really useful for weird attachment scenarios like yours...
This is what I’ve finally gotten around to doing for this year. Having to retension organic/polyfiber-based ropes all week is irritating. Set-and-forget is much more appealing.
Great to see that it's an option. For some of our smaller stuff this would be nice, but I'm not sure it beats the convenience of ratchet straps for the larger (16-20ft tall) structures.

Thanks Drizzt321 for the swaging details. Love learning new tricks, although this one I may save for next year. 840 lbs sounds just right, slightly more than the typical kinds of paracord used as guy lines but without the stretch.

EDIT: On second thought, would it be more likely to break having more tension but with no elasticity? It seems that elasticity is important or useful sometimes. Such as with tarps or anything that parachutes.

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