Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:52 pm

Leap wrote:Damn you'll have plenty of torque with that thing!


I know it is way longer than necessary,,,, but $12 wins.

The good thing is that (when removing) once the hard playa becomes soft (different in all locations) all one would need are vise grips to take it out a few inches more, and then just wiggle it while pulling it out.

adkisson
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby adkisson » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:02 am

First-timer—for the safety of us all, please double-check my method and math.

I'm doing the Costco carport with 14" lag screws and X-method ratchet strap tie downs.

One lag screw for each of the 8 legs of the carport = 8 lags. (Do the feet of the carport have holes so I can screw my lags in directly, with no need for chain link?)

Two Xs on each of the long sides w/ two ratchet straps per X = 8 ratchet straps and 8 lag screws w/ chain link

Aluminet shade attached to frame of carport w/ bungee balls

Total
16 lag screws
8 ratchet straps
1 aluminet shade
25 bungee balls

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Just_Joe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Just_Joe » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:17 am

You're fine.
3/8" lags will fit through foot holes.
Are you using the aluminet *instead* of the stock carport ceiling and sides?
If so, you can get by with two X's, maybe none.
I like to have a pair of X's perpendicular (reduces horizontal movement of the roof) before deciding to add a 3rd or 4th.


adkisson wrote:First-timer—for the safety of us all, please double-check my method and math.

I'm doing the Costco carport with 14" lag screws and X-method ratchet strap tie downs.

One lag screw for each of the 8 legs of the carport = 8 lags. (Do the feet of the carport have holes so I can screw my lags in directly, with no need for chain link?)

Two Xs on each of the long sides w/ two ratchet straps per X = 8 ratchet straps and 8 lag screws w/ chain link

Aluminet shade attached to frame of carport w/ bungee balls

Total
16 lag screws
8 ratchet straps
1 aluminet shade
25 bungee balls

DoctorIknow
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:23 am

Just_Joe wrote:I like to have a pair of X's perpendicular (reduces horizontal movement of the roof) before deciding to add a 3rd or 4th.


What a great idea!
I mean, why not?

Thank you!

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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:58 pm

Here is a perfect example!!!

14079904_10157259592490537_6506883915819904603_n.jpg
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby adkisson » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:43 pm

I'm planning to do the Aluminet over top the carport roof (it's only 14' x 10' though).

My lag screws are arriving by mail tomorrow (I like a close shave), but in case they don't...

Where in Reno can I buy candy cane rebar?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Popeye » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:22 pm

adkisson wrote:Where in Reno can I buy candy cane rebar?


Lowes and Home Depot will have rebar but you will have to bend it yourself
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby SquirrelHead » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:25 am

I made the move this year to lag screws and it was glorious!!! The structure never had any issues and all lag screws stayed firmly in place for the entire time. Not to mention the blood sweat and tears that I saved by just driving these screws in over pounding rebar. A huge thank you to everyone that went before me and posted up all of the information on this.

I used 3/8 14" lag screws and the 1/2 in. heavy duty impact driver from HF. I also used FIGJAM's two link chain trick to create connection points for the ratchet straps.
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sparr
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby sparr » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:37 am

wgpatrick wrote:3/4" x 24" lag bolts into the playa. Could it be done by one of the cheap-o Harbor Freight Impact drivers?


3/4" is significantly bigger than almost anyone is discussing in this thread. People above are mostly using 1/4 and 3/8, occasionally 1/2. You're leaving "lag screw" territory and headed into "industrial ground anchor" territory, the sort of thing that gets put in with large difficult-even-with-two-hands corded impact drivers. It's risky to try using HF drivers to put in 3/8x18 lag screws, you're not even going to come close with 3/4x24.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:53 am

Speaking of the Harbor Freight 1/2" impact driver, my campmates used mine to attempt to loosen nuts on a dome that had been under big stress from 20 at a time people climbing on it.

Many of the threads in the bolts connecting the spars were stripped enough that they had to be cut off with an angle grinder.

To hear my impact wrench straining on an impossible nut for 40 seconds, the nut not moving a millimeter, made me glad I brought my emergency breaker bar as I thought for sure my wrench would be broken on the next stubborn nut. (even the ones that didn't need to be cut off took a LOT of impacting from the wrench.

I was amazed the HF stood up to it, but for sure I'm going to bring a new in the box backup next year.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby SquirrelHead » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:11 pm

It's good to hear that the HF impact driver stood up to beating and kept on going. I contemplated buying a back-up to have just in case this year but didn't do it. I think I have convinced enough others of the lag screws that our village should have a few more next year so I can rely on those as spares. :D
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:58 am

In today's MOOP Map update (Day 3), FIGJAM's lag screws feature as perhaps the most positively described MOOP on the playa! http://journal.burningman.org/2016/09/b ... -forecast/

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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:59 am

I tried to post the pic, but it was to big.
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Leap
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Leap » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:07 am

BTW my 14" lag screws worked great. I used a battery powered 1/4" Ryobi impact wrench and it did the job. Some senior members of my camp did their best not to look impressed.

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Ratty
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:08 am

I left a comment suggesting a pipe wrench because I know that works. Maybe you can suggest your favorite non-electric mode of removal.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Leap » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:10 am

I brought simple socket wrench in case my impact driver crapped out.

Image

Didn't need it.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:11 am

Mine is a socket wrench, ideally with a foot-long extension for ease of use, but that's a bit too obvious. Use a socket wrench to remove a bolt made to be used with sockets? Cleverrrrrrr

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:12 am

Leap wrote:I brought simple socket wrench in case my impact driver crapped out.

Image

Didn't need it.


That's a box-end wrench, is it not?

Here is a socket wrench
Image

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Leap » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:14 am

Ya! Sorry.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:48 am

Ratty wrote:I left a comment suggesting a pipe wrench because I know that works. Maybe you can suggest your favorite non-electric mode of removal.


Although pipe wrenches gives one more leverage than shorter length socket wrenches or open end wrenches, pipe wrenches have very sharp jaws, which aren't parallel, and if the lag screw head is the contact point, those jaws could distort the head enough that the socket won't slide on the next time the lag screw is used.

jaws.JPG


There are "smooth jaw" wrenches (useless on pipe or rebar) that would give extra leverage vs. a normal sized socket wrench or open end wrench:
smooth jaw.JPG
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Meat Hunter » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:02 pm

If I am not mistaken, the smooth-jawed adjustable wrenches were/are called "Monkey Wrenches".

Old school. Still available, but mostly used by mechanics circa. 1920s-1940's before crescent wrenches became popular and pretty much replaced them.

I still have several "Monkey Wrenches" that my grandfather used when he was working on automobiles and aircraft in the WW I to pre-WW II era.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Jackass » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:08 pm

You can lead a horse to use lag bolts, but you can't make him pull them all out...
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby BBadger » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:03 pm

My impact driver crapped out on me and was just making a lot of noise, so I had to resort to a socket wrench. Even so it was much better than pounding rebar. I eventually was able to borrow another person's, though I'd like to see what went wrong with mine.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Leap » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:35 am

That reminds me... my cheap impact driver did well but the battery crapped out and wouldn't take a charge. I'm glad I brought two!

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:03 am

In the spirit of overkill, this year we found 1/2 inch by 18 inch lags for a very good price. So we took a mix of the 14 inch x 3/8 lags and the bigger new ones.

The difference is considerable. Using a 6 foot 2x4 as a lever, it was possible to pop the 3/8 lags out. It was NOT possible to pop the 1/2x18 inch lags. Wowzers.

I think the shorter ones are ideal for about 95% of what gets bolted to the playa, but the bigger ones provide a real benefit if you need extra holding power. Dont be afraid to ge bigger if you have the need as the return seems to be worth it.

Maybe next year we can do some real testing and get some actual numbers for comparison.

I'm totally sold on lags.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:58 am

I usually dig a little hole with a claw hammer before driving in the lags.
This gets the lag a little deeper, an important part of the process as there is a "top layer" of playa that has no benefit to the lag or rebar's holding capacity. Sometimes this non-gripping playa can be 6 or more inches deep.

Unfortunately, once the hex head of the lag is below the surface, with only one or two chain links protruding, when take down happens and mule tape, rope, or ratchet straps are removed, it is VERY hard to see where all the lags are buried.

It would be wise when set up is finished to COUNT how many lags are being used, and make sure you have that many when you remove them.

As seen in day 3 of the journal of the restore team mooping up BRC:
http://journal.burningman.org/2016/09/black-rock-city/building-brc/moop-map-2016-day-three-resto-vs-the-forecast/

lags left behind.JPG

This is Resto’s first encounter with the new technology in tent stakes. These have two links of chain attached for fastening, and they seem hardy as can be, plus easy to install with an impact wrench or impact driver. So then, maybe the owners of the dozen or so of these things left behind thought they weren’t so easy to uninstall. But even if your impact-driver-owning campmate has gone already, you CAN pull these out with vise grips. TL;DR mind all your tent stakes and keep a vise grip in camp.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby mudpuppy000 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:11 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:In the spirit of overkill, this year we found 1/2 inch by 18 inch lags for a very good price. So we took a mix of the 14 inch x 3/8 lags and the bigger new ones.

The difference is considerable. Using a 6 foot 2x4 as a lever, it was possible to pop the 3/8 lags out. It was NOT possible to pop the 1/2x18 inch lags. Wowzers.

I think the shorter ones are ideal for about 95% of what gets bolted to the playa, but the bigger ones provide a real benefit if you need extra holding power. Dont be afraid to ge bigger if you have the need as the return seems to be worth it.

Maybe next year we can do some real testing and get some actual numbers for comparison.

I'm totally sold on lags.


A few years ago I tried out lags at the vegas regional. The soil was pretty much just packed rock/gravel/sand. We tried out some 3/8" and some 1/4" lags, and the 3/8"s had much more holding power. The 1/4" ones were pretty much useless. Seems like the diameter of the lag has a big impact.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elorrum » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:15 pm

I haven't used rebar the last two years. I bring it, and a small drilling hammer. Then I hammer in the 12" nails with washers (that I used to use as set up and adjust, temporary anchors.). Now, I pound those nails flush to the ground, nobody trips on them, and they don't require their own personal lights or caps, and pull out easily with a pair of long handled slip joint pliers.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby The CO » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:11 pm

I just returned from Wasteland Weekend in the Mojave Desert. We set up M*A*S*H's 2 GP medium tents with the Lags (3/8" x 14") we began using last year in the dark, with 2 experienced people, 3 inexperienced people, and one impact driver (Milwaukee 18v, one battery).

56 minutes start to finish to layout tents, drive 65+ anchors, and erect poles.

Then, the following day, a windstorm hit us for about 5-6 hours, with sustained gusts of up to 60 mph. Guess which camp was the only one in sight that didn't have a single stake or tent failure?

Thank you FIGJAM for sharing your wisdom!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby underscored » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:29 pm

Thank you FIGJAM and others for your contributions here.

Over the past couple of years I've been using the information you've provided to improve our situation at the camp and I've never once been disappointed.

I wanted to see if anyone had experience erecting wooden 4x4s using a Simpson Strong E-Z Base to use as a frame for a shade structure. This can be secured with 4 lag screws:

Image

Most of the designs I see are using 2x4s for the posts, but I thought this could be a more solid setup.

One of my concerns is that the lag screws might be close enough that they loosen up the packed playa. Is there a rule for how close one could drill lag screws without this becoming a problem?

Thanks for the help!


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