Lag screws vs everything else...

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maladroit
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:39 am

It would probably be fine as long as you have 14" or longer screws. They do crack up and loosen the hard playa, but the real strength is deep down where they screw into the clay-like underplaya. Since each screw can withstand hundreds of pounds of force, you could also try just using two screws on a diagonal. You will need guy wires to keep that post vertical no matter how well you anchor the base.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby underscored » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:19 am

Thanks Maladroit.

The screws we have are 5/8" x 14". We are thinking of doing a trial run before we throw all our eggs in this basket so we can try using 4 vs 2 screws.

I was thinking to ratchet the posts diagonally but wasn't sure it was required. I'll make sure to do that now.

I'll document the entire process and report back to the board how things go.

We're still not 100% on the design but were able to get some huge pieces of aluminet for very cheap on craigslist so we can get pretty creative with this.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby PocoJoe » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:14 pm

New Questions - Retention Force of Lag Bolts

Has anyone put lag bolts into a design that was approved by Art Support Services (ASS)? I need to put some structural calcs together as part of my art installation design (it is over 8' tall) and need to plug in a number. I checked with Figgie and he had heard a value of around 450 lbs straight out holding force for a 3/8" diameter 14" long bolt.

1) Does anyone have a number that they submitted to ASS regarding lag bolt retention force in lbs and had approved?

2) Has anyone had a failure with rain on playa? I remember when removing rebar with vice grips, I'd pour a little water along the side of the rebar and it would track down and really loosen things up. Is water saturation a failure mode, or is the playa damp if you go down deep enough?

3) are the 1/2" x 18" lag bolts SIGNIFICANTLY better than the 3/8"?

Thanks to all

PocoJoe

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:10 pm

Pocojoe, I clicked on your link and it made me laugh. Thanks
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby EGAZ » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:31 pm

PocoJoe, I thought this post had what you are looking for but I was wrong. Good read anyway.

https://54.200.58.141/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... &start=360
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby PocoJoe » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:02 pm

Thank you both. Ratty, I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it. Come visit us on playa!

Eldergeekaz, the test that your link points evaluates the commerical anchors that Art Support Services can drive on playa. It would be great to know what a similar test would do with the lag bolts.

Thanks for digging.

Joe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:59 pm

They were tested on page 18 of this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1093297#p1093297

Even a wimpy little 10" lag screw held 450 pounds vertical pull. And it didn't actually pull out of the playa, it pulled UP the playa.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby EGAZ » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:46 pm

That's the one I was thinking about! Thanks maladroit!! :coffee:
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Just_Joe » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:08 am

PocoJoe wrote:New Questions - Retention Force of Lag Bolts
2) Has anyone had a failure with rain on playa? I remember when removing rebar with vice grips, I'd pour a little water along the side of the rebar and it would track down and really loosen things up. Is water saturation a failure mode, or is the playa damp if you go down deep enough?

Yes. I have used them over Memorial Day weekend on a driveable, but damp playa. They were much less effective- could be pulled out by just lifting the feet they were attached to.

3) are the 1/2" x 18" lag bolts SIGNIFICANTLY better than the 3/8"?

Yes. Significantly. The extra diameter/length makes the 18" a lot more effective. We use 1/2" for carports and 3/8 for EMT shade structures.

Side note: Last year, I did a 21x24 Aluminet shade with shade cloth sides on half of it. It held well anchored with 3/8" lags at the feet and only TWO X's of rachet straps. I wouldn't do this with regular tarps, but it was no problem with the Aluminet.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:25 pm

Just_Joe wrote:Yes. I have used them over Memorial Day weekend on a driveable, but damp playa. They were much less effective- could be pulled out by just lifting the feet they were attached to.


That's interesting. I have heard less success elsewhere, when people tried to use them on regular dirt. Good results in places that have a layer of clay though.

I didn't hear of any lags failing due to rain on the playa the past few years. But it might take a LOT more rain to get the effect you experienced. If you're screwing into pudding rather than damp compacted mud, it would make sense that the lag screws would lose grip.

In the absence of hard data, I guess use common sense...for small structures, use regular lags. For large ones, get some extra bite and use the bigger, 18" lags. For really tall or large structures, abandon lags and go to the real deal, hydraulic-installed ground screw anchors that have deep enough threads to be useful even in soft soil.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby ygmir » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:54 pm

maladroit wrote:
Just_Joe wrote:Yes. I have used them over Memorial Day weekend on a driveable, but damp playa. They were much less effective- could be pulled out by just lifting the feet they were attached to.


That's interesting. I have heard less success elsewhere, when people tried to use them on regular dirt. Good results in places that have a layer of clay though.

I didn't hear of any lags failing due to rain on the playa the past few years. But it might take a LOT more rain to get the effect you experienced. If you're screwing into pudding rather than damp compacted mud, it would make sense that the lag screws would lose grip.

In the absence of hard data, I guess use common sense...for small structures, use regular lags. For large ones, get some extra bite and use the bigger, 18" lags. For really tall or large structures, abandon lags and go to the real deal, hydraulic-installed ground screw anchors that have deep enough threads to be useful even in soft soil.


I've had good luck with the auger/anchors, I'm thinking of welding a nug on the top, to use an impact to drive them. With the very wide auger/screw, they hold fantastic. So much so, that they are hard to auger in to full depth.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:43 pm

In 2015 I got to camp, got in the playapod, and went to sleep intending to set up the shade in the morning.

Got up at daybreak to pouring rain with the city shut down.

Wanted soooooo badly to have a place to sit outside that as soon as the rain tapered to a sprinkle, I started setting up my structure.

Other than being very sloppy, and occasionally getting minor shocks from my drill, I got everything set up.

The top 3 or 4 inches of playa was sloppy mud instead of fluff.

Other than that, everything held up just like every other year. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby maladroit » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:49 pm

FIGJAM wrote:In 2015 I got to camp, got in the playapod, and went to sleep intending to set up the shade in the morning.

Got up at daybreak to pouring rain with the city shut down.

Wanted soooooo badly to have a place to sit outside that as soon as the rain tapered to a sprinkle, I started setting up my structure.

Other than being very sloppy, and occasionally getting minor shocks from my drill, I got everything set up.

The top 3 or 4 inches of playa was sloppy mud instead of fluff.

Other than that, everything held up just like every other year. 8)


Sounds like heaven. I spent that time unproductively sitting in my car, no place to sleep comfortably, afraid to eat because the Gate Road porta-potty was already full of poop and mud (so much mud the door wouldn't close).

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Super C » Thu May 18, 2017 12:05 am

I can't believe I read this entire thread...

Anyway, quick question about bolt length. I see everyone pushing 14" but I don't plan on building a structure. Would 12" bolts be enough for a springbar/kodiak tent?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Kelsier » Thu May 18, 2017 8:52 am

Super C wrote:I can't believe I read this entire thread...

Anyway, quick question about bolt length. I see everyone pushing 14" but I don't plan on building a structure. Would 12" bolts be enough for a springbar/kodiak tent?


I've read on these boards, and personally found to be true last year, that the stakes the Kodiak comes with are sufficient. That tent is not going to go anywhere. I'm not personally familiar with the Springbar but I believe it is similar.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Popeye » Thu May 18, 2017 1:20 pm

Kelsier wrote:
Super C wrote:I can't believe I read this entire thread...

Anyway, quick question about bolt length. I see everyone pushing 14" but I don't plan on building a structure. Would 12" bolts be enough for a springbar/kodiak tent?


I've read on these boards, and personally found to be true last year, that the stakes the Kodiak comes with are sufficient. That tent is not going to go anywhere. I'm not personally familiar with the Springbar but I believe it is similar.


The stakes the Kodiak comes with where sufficient for the wind conditions you encountered last year . If you plan for average conditions you may be flying kites tents in a windy year :shock:
The threads on lag bolts hold a lot better than smooth tent stakes.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby caffeineslinger » Thu May 18, 2017 5:18 pm

I've used the same Springbar tent and stakes for over ten years out there and have never had a problem.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby krly » Fri May 19, 2017 3:15 pm

Caffeineslinger.....not to hijack the post...but....are you able to sleep in the tent when the winds-a-blowin' heavy ?
Thanks.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Ratty » Fri May 19, 2017 5:47 pm

Krly, arrive on Sunday and start sleeping on Wednesday. You'll have no problem.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby caffeineslinger » Sat May 20, 2017 9:44 am

krly wrote:Caffeineslinger.....not to hijack the post...but....are you able to sleep in the tent when the winds-a-blowin' heavy ?
Thanks.


I don't recall ever having a problem sleeping passing out in it under any conditions.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elliot » Sat May 20, 2017 2:29 pm

As a big fan of lags, I can tell you that I also make use of them at home.
Though... I'm finding things in my yard... which I have not seen on Playa. :wink:

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby ciphergoth » Tue May 23, 2017 3:58 pm

Do I need an impact driver to drive these, or will a standard cordless drill do it? Thanks!

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elliot » Tue May 23, 2017 4:23 pm

Definitely impact wrench. I use a DeWalt DW 292.
Come to think of it, I bring two of them.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Joeln » Tue May 23, 2017 8:11 pm

Or a small sledge hammer...
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:50 am

Bump.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby motskyroonmatick » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:18 pm

All hail FigJam and his glorious lag bolts! They are a breeze, fast and safer than rebar.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elliot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:34 pm

That should probably be "All hail Sir FIGJAM..." to us. :D
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby DoctorIknow » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:10 pm

FIGJAM:

I have been very happy with "the system" :

-----lag screws both 18" and 14"
-----mule tape
-----impact wrench
-----two impact sockets
-----3 link chain pieces
-----washers (only needed when the hex head is just a tiny bit bigger than the opening in the chain)

but, when I was "promoting" the system to a burner who for years has been setting up his carport using very heavy duty augers (needing an incredibly slow, two person device for screwing them in), I realized the ONLY thing about the lag "system" that "lags" is cutting those chain links.

----quality chain is expensive (many chains that look good, are not at all)
----every method I've read about here to cut the chain takes a long time and or money to buy tools, or worse, have a shop cut them.
----those methods include:
-----------very long handled bolt cutters ($$)
-----------well secured vise to hold chain when cutting
-----------angle grinder
-----------acetylene torch
-----------hacksaw (not too bad for small batches of lags, vise a necessity)
-----------sweet talking a worker at Lowes to use their nifty, but slow, chain cutter

As I was telling him all about this, I realized a much simpler and cheaper way to secure ones ratchet staps or guy ropes would be using about a foot of mule tape, tied with a square knot, then looped over the lag. A washer would ensure the somewhat sharp edges of the hexhead didn't cut the mule tape.

But even if there is abrasion, there would not be enough to make the mule tape fail.

The 2000 lb test 3/4" mule tape, with delivery from ordering online, costs about $0.16 per foot, and when striking camp, if the loops of tape can be removed and are in good shape, fine, if not, just cut them off. (they may be near impossible to remove from the lag screw.

I haven't tried this yet, but will this year and report back.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Canoe » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:20 pm

Kelsier wrote:
...Would 12" bolts be enough for a springbar/kodiak tent?

I've read on these boards, and personally found to be true last year, that the stakes the Kodiak comes with are sufficient. That tent is not going to go anywhere. I'm not personally familiar with the Springbar but I believe it is similar.

Somebody isn't familiar with Condition Alpha.
It depends on the year how strong the wind can be and for how long. Some years are a walk in the park. Other years, or in other parts of the city, anything not sufficiently secured down breaks loose and can literally take off, not just do a high-speed tumbleweed imitation. Like the car-port that
captain mcguiver wrote:In 2006, I watched a ez-up-canopy tent fly 50 feet into the air and come crashing down into a girls chest. She got a free helicopter ride - to Reno ER. (~ed. update on med-evac – you will be billed for the ride – get insurance.)


What is the tent's cross-section area like?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Strata » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:18 pm

I've got 18" x 1/2" lag screws for my monkey hut, thinking of 9" both below and above ground. Problem-- when we set up a test rib last weekend, at home in "regular dirt", one of the lag screws bent slightly. Could still get it out of the ground with the impact driver no problem, very slight bend. But it makes me think, hmm, what if one bends really badly on playa?

I'm bringing spares, I'm bringing a crowbar, I'm bringing my impact driver (cordless) and spare battery and charger (our camp has charger power). But I didn't think we were putting that much stress on that lag screw, very surprised by the bend. This is my first monkey hut, and I hear the rebar bends sometimes too. Cover will be aluminet, so not as much wind loading as a tarp but non-zero.

Advice? Stories from experience?

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