Lag screws vs everything else...

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Meat Hunter
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Meat Hunter » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:06 pm

Based on my experience last year setting my 1/2" x 18" lag bolts with a 1/2" drill connected to a generator, I do not think that it would be very much fun (if at all possible) to set lag bolts all the way down to the surface with a speed wrench.

In my opinion, you might get a lag bolt down 6"-8", but after that, the remainder of the way will be a real challenge for mind, body and spirit.

If you have one person per lag bolt, it might be doable. "Might", mind you......

Give it a try and let us know how it worked out.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by geeyou » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:49 am

This thread is just plain awesome, this will be our first burn and before even considering rebars I'm already a convert lol
We've got a few large shading structures this year made out of standard 2x4 lumbers, the largest one measures 30ft x 50ft...
http://i.imgur.com/S1ECt93.jpg

The side tarps actually don't meet the ground so we were going to use lag bolts and guy line the structure down using bungee cords (one end to the top of the structure and the other to the chain link).
How well do carabiners actually fare? Or is it worth buying the chains and investing in a chain cutter and go Figjam style!

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by tamarakay » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:20 am

It is never wrong to go figjam style. He is the bombdiggity.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Meat Hunter » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:04 am

Use two links of chain.

The big-box store where I purchased my chain was more than willing to cut the chain that I purchased from them into two chain lots.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Roundabout » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:42 pm

I found these two inexpensive bags at Lowes - it so happens that they are perfectly sized for carrying lag screws!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by rideincircles » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:45 pm

Here's a good website that has animated gifs on tying knots. Lag screws and mule tape should be able to tie down everything using slip knots and truckers hitches. I need to start learning these.

http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/

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Bemerritt
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Bemerritt » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:47 am

It was awkward watching the lowes employee cut thirty, 2-chain link sections for me. But he wouldn't let me help and I didn't want to cut them at home with an angle grinder. Now time for a dry run.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by mattcamp » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:52 am

Does anyone know of anything similar to a tent stake bar that could be used with 1/2" lag screws? (ie, similar to http://www.lodimetals.com/3-hole-tent-stake-bar)

I would quite like to secure our major guy lines with more than one lag screw... another option I considered was using a longer piece of chain (2 feet or so?) with a 24" lag in each end, then the guy line attached in the middle.

I fly in from the UK to Reno 1 week before gates open so I'm a bit limited on what I can fabricate myself sadly.... anyone else done anything funky in the way of multi-lag screw footings?

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by wolfraider » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:56 am

Bemerritt wrote:It was awkward watching the lowes employee cut thirty, 2-chain link sections for me. But he wouldn't let me help and I didn't want to cut them at home with an angle grinder. Now time for a dry run.
I had the same experience. About halfway through the guys machine broke and the knob fell off. He had to wander off and find a pair of pliers to finish the job.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:22 pm

mattcamp wrote:Does anyone know of anything similar to a tent stake bar that could be used with 1/2" lag screws? (ie, similar to http://www.lodimetals.com/3-hole-tent-stake-bar)

I would quite like to secure our major guy lines with more than one lag screw... another option I considered was using a longer piece of chain (2 feet or so?) with a 24" lag in each end, then the guy line attached in the middle.

I fly in from the UK to Reno 1 week before gates open so I'm a bit limited on what I can fabricate myself sadly.... anyone else done anything funky in the way of multi-lag screw footings?
I'm assuming you will have a drill either on or pre-playa in reno right? You can buy a variety of lengths/thicknesses of flat metal stock at most hardware stores as well as drill bits.

Edit: Hell, lengths of 2x4 with three holes drilled 6 inches or so apart would probably work.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Popeye » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:55 pm

If you want to get away from the chain link and washer thing try googling for Lashing Rings or D Rings with Strap. They come load rated and and can be found at trailer parts stores and marine hardware stores.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Elliot » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:44 am

That's a handy piece of hardware, but I don't see the size of the hole. I would want to know that before buying, because it can be very tricky to bore out a hole to a slightly larger size. If you do have to bore it out, invest in a Step Drill bit, rather than using a regular drill bit.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:49 am

Step drill bits are amazing. Those things revolutionized drilling holes in metal.

@mattcamp: If you end up making your own stake bars out of flat bar stock, use a step bit.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Popeye » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:49 pm

That one has a 1/4" hole, I've seen them up to 1/2" although the 1/2" tend to be pricey. But I guess they should be, bigger bolt will handle a larger load.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by mooserider » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:51 am

Hurray! My box of lag screws just arrived today. And, contrary to issues raised by other posters, not one was bent. Now I can go find the right-sized socket for the impact driver...

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:35 am

apavlin wrote:Hurray! My box of lag screws just arrived today. And, contrary to issues raised by other posters, not one was bent. Now I can go find the right-sized socket for the impact driver...
Buy two!

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by rideincircles » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:22 pm

Just my take on cutting the chain. I have tried 3 methods. Cutting it at the store, angle grinder, and Sawzaw. I did about 10 at the store before it looked like the hydraulic cutter blade looked was getting pretty jagged and I decided to do the rest at home. I just started cutting them myself and it was a local hardware store so i didn't want to ruin their equipment. That is the easiest method, but keep an eye on the blade.

I cut about 20 links last night using an angle grinder and it took about 3 minutes each cut. I also tried with a sawzaw, but I prefer the angle grinder. Both took about the same time, but the shower of sparks is way more fun and I think the blade will last longer on the angle grinder. I plan to cut the rest this weekend. YMMV.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:24 pm

Weird. My process: clamp one end of a link in the side of a bench vise, use a hacksaw with sharp blade to make a cut, twist the link a little with vise-grips. It was taking me about 45 seconds for each section.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Elliot » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:25 pm

I use my 30" bolt cutters (pliers style).
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by rideincircles » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:50 pm

I probably need a better vise since mine is just sitting on a table, but I had no luck trying to bend my chain by hand when I put it in the vise. The links I have were 12 or more per foot from what I can tell and they looked shorter and possibly thicker than some other pictures of chain I have seen. I may see if I have a thicker grinder blade since some of that time is spent cutting the link open wider once it is cut.

I need to build a work table at some point, I found the vise in my garage which was probably my uncles and I had a table with a hole the peg fit into.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:56 pm

The chain looks normal sized to fit the lag screws. The key is not to try to bend the links...that's hard. You can make a thin cut through one side of the link, and then you grip the top of the link (with the bottom of the link still held in the vise) and TWIST the un-cut side of the link. With about a foot of leverage it easily twists until there's enough room to remove it from the chain.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:51 pm

Put a cutting wheel in your grinder!!!

It will be MUCH quicker.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by skippy3k » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:44 am

FIGJAM wrote:Put a cutting wheel in your grinder!!!

It will be MUCH quicker.
Agreed. I did mine in about 30 seconds a link. The only quicker way I know is to have Chuck Norris stare at it.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by rideincircles » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:28 am

I got it down to about 1.5 minutes my last few cuts after getting my process down. Not worth going to buy a cutting wheel for 20 links of chain, but will keep that in mind if I build a brewing rig from old bed frames later on. Need to learn how to weld at some point.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:56 am

mattcamp wrote:... I would quite like to secure our major guy lines with more than one lag screw... another option I considered was using a longer piece of chain (2 feet or so?) with a 24" lag in each end, then the guy line attached in the middle. ... multi-lag screw footings?
The question begs, why?
(~edit: the big question is: is this for a typical DIY playa structure or is this for some big ass playa structure that can kill someone if it fails? Note that many small structures can be injurious or lethal when thrashing away or blowing/rolling away in the wind.)

Multi-anchors have to be done right or you're just going to get the bulk of the load on one, and when it fails, the remaining bulk is transferred to the next and it fails, so on and so on until there's only one anchor left and it fails. So do you need the strength of three anchors for one guy-line, or are you looking for redundancy? Do you want to have three separate anchors that balance the load, so if one fails the remaining load is balanced among the others? What angles are your guy-lines at that you worry about their anchors? Depending on the angle of your guy-lines, the chain may be your best bet, be it for multiple lag-bolt anchors in-line on one chain, or for multiple independent anchors|chains joined to a single loading point by a bolt (one chain extending longer for the attachment point). There have been examples posted of the multi-anchors done for the very very large structures at BRC. There is some debate about which is better: balancing anchor loads vs. multiple independent anchors. For very high loads there's also the issue about what your guy-line is made of and how to attach it to an anchor point so you're not stressing your guy-line into a failure point. If you're talking big ass playa structure, you're going to have to do some research into what has reliably worked on the playa (not the loudest eplaya opinion), and for the 75+mph winds - we can't know if 2015 is going to be a blow year, a hot year, both, or a walk-in-the-park year, and with micro-bursts over your camp/structure, all bets are off.

One of the things to keep in mind with guy-lines from a point on a structure, is that two guy-lines angled apart can better place that point in 3D and hold it there, to minimize the wind being able to whip it around that can result it much higher dynamic loads on that point and on a single guy-line & anchor.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by mattcamp » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:17 am

Canoe wrote:
mattcamp wrote:... I would quite like to secure our major guy lines with more than one lag screw... another option I considered was using a longer piece of chain (2 feet or so?) with a 24" lag in each end, then the guy line attached in the middle. ... multi-lag screw footings?
The question begs, why?
(~edit: the big question is: is this for a typical DIY playa structure or is this for some big ass playa structure that can kill someone if it fails? Note that many small structures can be injurious or lethal when thrashing away or blowing/rolling away in the wind.)
It's a reasonably big structure... it's a 26' high wooden tower supporting Aluminet sides to form a large 40x40' pyramid shape.

I've discussed the structure previously at viewtopic.php?t=72642#p1056536 however since that thread we did change to using 70% Aluminet shade fabric for the sides which has reduced the wind-loading massively (however at massive cost).

The tower itself is made of many 4x4, 6x2, 4x2 beams plus about 9 sheets of 3/4" plywood so it's pretty damn heavy in itself. We'll then be guying it with 3" HD ratchet straps and aircraft-grade steel wire rope on no less than 10 individual guy lines.

I'm still trying to over-engineer this as much as possible just in case.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Canoe » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:52 am

(If you're still using internal outriggers for a larger tower footprint, that would be good. Better if they're braced/triangular. They can also be lag-screwed into the playa, both the base and the outriggers. Rebar can work for this, but far easier to work with lag-screws, be it through a hole in a wood beam with a washer, or using a suitable plate secured to the beam with the plate on the ground.)

Given the wood beam with plywood design, I assume the tower is cross-braced enough that it is self-supporting for itself and the people loads that will be on it, and only relying upon the guy-lines for overly rambunctious people and wind-loads?

But this is beyond small DIY structures, and although not up in the big ass structures range, the forces can be considerable and my opinion (for what it's worth) is that you need to look at what has worked on-playa for similar structures/loads. I think the lag-screws would work great for securing the base of the tarps, direct or short guy-lined. For the guy-lines to the tower, you'd have to consider the angle of the guy-lines and the horizontal vs. vertical loads on their anchors. If you've done the wind-loads, then you should be able to calculate the potential loads on the guy-lines. If they're also holding the tower up, you're into even higher loads.

I suggest you take your question back to your prior thread on your structure to update people on the current design so more meaningful critiques can be provided. May even be better to start a new thread featuring the current design, so you can leave comments relevant to older versions behind, so they don't confuse people looking at the current design.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Soliton » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:50 am

maladroit wrote:Weird. My process: clamp one end of a link in the side of a bench vise, use a hacksaw with sharp blade to make a cut, twist the link a little with vise-grips. It was taking me about 45 seconds for each section.
<Bump>
I have an angle grinder and cut-off wheel, but they throw dust everywhere. Using a hacksaw and an new blade I cut 75 links (mix of 3/8 and 1/2" chain) in only a couple of hours. With a decent vise and a stout wrench, this process is quite quick - and relatively clean.

(not that I would discourage *anybody* from getting a new power tool :) )

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by SourPatch » Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:53 am

Elliot wrote:I use my 30" bolt cutters (pliers style).
Yep. 2 nips per link to be cut out and you're done. 5 seconds per link if you have someone to help you.
Overkill or go home.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by GreyCoyote » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:13 am

Plasma cutter. 3 secs per link. Did 15 feet of chain in less than one beer.

(It was GOOD beer. Hehehe)
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