Lag screws vs everything else...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
Post Reply
User avatar
Vladar
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:54 pm

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Vladar » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:35 pm

Lag screws ordered! 3/8" x 14"
Pack of 50
Now I just need to go pick up my impact driver.
Then a test setup here at home with the car port. Need to figure out that X method people were talking about, so you don't have guy lines everywhere.

Thanks for this thread! Super helpful!

User avatar
skippy3k
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:55 am
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: 8:15 and J....or close to it.
Location: Rocky Mountain High

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by skippy3k » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:06 am

Were you able to get 3/8" x 14" hot galvanized lag bolts? Or zinc? I am having difficulty finding 14" galvanized bolts. Seems like they stop galvanizing at 12" for 3/8" bolts.
I'm a fixer. I fix things.

User avatar
Vladar
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:54 pm

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Vladar » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:43 am

I picked up the 3/8 X 14 Lag Screws / Hex Head / Steel / Zinc from http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/screws/Lag-Screws

Looks like they only have the 12" 3/8" galvanized as well Link

paulthewookie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:00 pm
Burning Since: 2014

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by paulthewookie » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Hi All,

I managed to find a source for lag bolts in my home town (I live in Canada so shipping from the linked websites is super expensive). I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on how many I should get for a standard 10' x 12' footprint monkeyhut? Was planning on getting 40 but I want to make sure that is enough but also not complete overkill.

Thanks!

User avatar
mgb327
Posts: 1099
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:20 pm
Location: Somerset, Va.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by mgb327 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:31 pm

Wow, I was just reading this thread, because for a long time I thought it had nothing to do with my setup. It does. I have been using 1/2" candy-caned rebar for years to tie down my shade structure. Not so bad to beat it in the ground, a pain to pull. I remembered I had some galv. lags in a box in the basement. (I am a "gatherer" of things). I found 62 galv. lag bolts, 3/8" by 12". Have some nice clean chain as well. I guess I am going to make some 2-link chains and bring my batt-op drill. Thanks to you all. I have extras of these bolts if anyone needs some. I will be at 3:30 and J, (about 3:28 and on the side away from the Man. Black Suburban)
Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them’s making a poop, the other one’s carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge?
" I am a controlled substance". Savannah.

User avatar
FossaFerox
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:43 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Vinyl Bunker
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:35 pm

For anyone picking up lag bolts, buy them direct from the fasternersuperstore website rather than buying them from Amazon. They're much cheaper and have more options. I opted for 1/2"x18" for our structure tie towns and 3/8"x14" for our tarp tie downs. 130 pieces all told. I also picked up an 800W inverter and someone else in my camp is getting the corded porter cable impact driver. I'm oddly excited to build camp this year...
ygmir wrote:Everyone loves you there, and no one cares a shit about you..........all at once. and vice versa.

User avatar
Akela
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:32 pm
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Kamp Suckie Fuckaye

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Akela » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:30 pm

The lag screws/impact driver combo sound awesome and I'll suggest them to the construction lead for my camp. They're overkill for my tent though, so I went to Lowe's today to buy some new 10" galvanized nails. I made some small talk with the friendly middle-aged woman who rang me up at the counter. Her name tag said that she had been proudly helping customers since June 2014, and she seemed a struggle a little with the computer system. She called over a manager, who was also a friendly, middle-aged woman, to help enter the nails and other items into the computer. I'm what some would call a "strapping young lad," turning 25 during the Burn this year (my birthday parties are the best birthday parties). Helping her colleague find the appropriate barcode in the product booklet, the manager said "yep, he's a 10-incher." They both looked up at me in unison, blushed, whispered to each other, and giggled uproariously. Sadly, the (in)appropriate response of "please, ladies, nine and a half at most" didn't occur to me until a few seconds too late.

Yay for sexual harassment and pounding big stakes in the workplace!

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16910
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Brainy Bar
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:08 am

I just made the switch to lag bolts for my camp's structural anchors this year. I'd seen Figjam's posts in the past, but I already had a working solution...but in going through my shade hardware inventory for a campout last weekend, I realized that about half my hurricane stakes (which work extremely well) were ready to be retired (8+ years of exposure to the playa can do that). As if that wasn't enough, I had the good fortune of camping next to Just_Joe at the campout and he was using lag bolts and an impact driver for his setup.

I'll still bring the sledgehammer along (in case its needed by campmates/neighbors), but suspect it's not going to see a whole lot of use. :)

Meat Hunter
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:44 pm
Burning Since: 2014

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Meat Hunter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:25 pm

It may be a bit of over-kill, but what the heck. I think that someone recently wrote that nothing is over-kill on the Playa.

I opted for 1/2" x 18" long lag bolts and my trusty 1/2" electric drill powered by my Honda 2000i generator.

I have a battery powered impact wrench, but you know Murphy's Law and batteries.
Specializing in Calibrating Windsocks -- Any where, Any Time, and Any elevation.

Vidi ego exars.

maladroit
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:36 pm

Have you tried a normal drill + giant lag screws + playa yet? I don't have an impact wrench and was hoping a regular drill would work fine.

User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
Posts: 16910
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:54 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Brainy Bar
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by trilobyte » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:59 pm

@maladroit - from the demonstration I saw last weekend, the hammering action of the impact driver was what made it go in so easily. It might work fine, you'd just want to put more pressure on it as you're trying to drive it in.

@Meat Hunter - if you're lucky, the weather will be mild and a solid structure will seem like overkill. Otherwise you'll laugh/cry as you see lesser structures blowing down or coming apart. Remember, the reason you don't see much video footage of dust storms on the playa is a) dust is bad for cameras, so they aren't often used then and b) people are usually busy at the moment.

caffeineslinger
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 2:26 pm
Burning Since: 2003

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by caffeineslinger » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:00 pm

Just got my lag screws delivered today. And my ticket!

What a great day.

User avatar
Shoeshine
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:21 am
Burning Since: 2010
Camp Name: Camp DIY
Location: San Deigo, CA

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Shoeshine » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:41 pm

Our Drill would get us about 10-11" in. then we had to ratchet drive the rest of the way.
After a couple of those I went back to the truck for the impact and then easy sailing.
Hammer drill would be the other option.
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10376
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:57 pm

A standard household 3/8 drill is not strong enough for the underplaya.

An impact, hammer, or 1/2" drill is needed.

I have a whole hog! 8)
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
captain voltaveus
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:54 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by captain voltaveus » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:45 am

Our camp did a test run at the Alvord desert a couple of weeks ago and used 14 in 3/4 lag bolts. I couldn't attend sadly.
There was an estimate 75mph+ wind storm one night and the shade structure failed. Two of the bolts pulled out of the playa and were bent I was told.

My thought is that when the bolts were drilled in that they were likely put in at an angle. Is the prevailing wisdom that they should be placed vertically?

Thanks!

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10376
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:22 am

2 out of how many, and how big of a shade?

Kind of surprised they would bend.

The specs for that lag say that the capacity is 60,000 psi. :?
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
FossaFerox
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:43 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Vinyl Bunker
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:36 am

PSI doesn't refer to bending or pulling out, simply failing under load (shearing or necking/snapping). I have faith in the bolts in general, but they have to be used correctly. They aren't a magic bullet, they're just much easier to put in and remove while being almost as good as 3' length of rebar.

I would love to see a diagram of your shade structure including an indication of which bolts failed. I'll help you figure out how to improve it.

For what it's worth, my shade structure is using 98 14" by 3/8" bolts along the bottom edges of our 14 tarps (7 to a 10' length of tarp) and 21 18" by 1/2" for the actual shade structure tiedowns (one on every perimeter post with two on every corner). This is likely MASSIVE overkill, but I am a FIRM believer in overkill.
ygmir wrote:Everyone loves you there, and no one cares a shit about you..........all at once. and vice versa.

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10376
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:57 am

I know, but it is an indicator of how tough these bolts are.

I think the specs on the 3/8" are 5000psi. 8)
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
captain voltaveus
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:54 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by captain voltaveus » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:50 pm

I'm on the road at Oregon country fair this week and on my phone, so I can't post a drawing easily. We shamelessly stole the design and it is:
4 8ft 2x4s each 20 ft apart, that at the top are joined by 80ft of cable on a tensioner
Each corner is counter tightened by 2 motorcycle ratchet tie downs that pull the 2x4s outward against the perimeter cable. These are anchored with the standard figjam 14in 3/4 lag bolts with 2 links of chain.
In the center of the 20 x20 square alumanet cloth is 14 ft center piece with a metal bowl on the top to avoid ripping the mesh.
From the top of the center pole. There is a motorcycle ratchet tie down that goes to the top of each corner stud, providing stability for the center pole.
We did one test run at the dry windy Oregon coast and it survived fine, but then last week apparently 2 figjam bolts came out of the playa and bent at the alvord desert. I suspect whoever place them did at a shallow angle causing them to bend and pop out.
Straight down is the best?
I really appreciate the advice, we are all Birgins, but avid makers from portland and are having a blast planning and testing all this stuff.

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10376
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:32 am

My lags are 3/8", not 3/4"

The way you describe the shade sounds like it needs stronger anchors.

The 1/2" lags come 24"s long. 8)

http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/partN ... Steel-Zinc
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

Meat Hunter
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:44 pm
Burning Since: 2014

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Meat Hunter » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:19 am

Since I have never experienced the harshest conditions that the Playa can throw at you, in fact I have never stepped foot on the Playa before; I hope that my 1/2" x 18" lag bolts drilled all the way into the ground at a 39 deg. angle with chain links and guy lines attached with 15" black rubber bungee cords will be strong enough.

If not, I will do like everyone else, all you will see will be elbows and shoe leather as I try to hold things together, keep things from flying off, gather things from neighbors camps and piece my kit back together.

Such is life and that is just one of the things that makes life on the Playa such a kaleidoscope of adventures.

--- Why will I drill my lag bolts at a precise 39 deg. angle, you might ask. The answer is quite simple. The scientific answer is - It looked about right.

I built a two piece "drilling shoe" that has a 39 deg. guide hole in the center to guide the bolt. The two-piece "drilling shoe" is hinged at one end so that it can be opened and removed when the lag bolt is 1/2 way in. Just in case future e-playa research shows that 90 deg. is a better angle, I also installed a 90 deg. guide hole.
Specializing in Calibrating Windsocks -- Any where, Any Time, and Any elevation.

Vidi ego exars.

User avatar
FossaFerox
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:43 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Vinyl Bunker
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FossaFerox » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:26 pm

Yeah, you need additional anchors or bigger anchors with your system.

The problem is you're putting a CONSIDERABLE static load on the anchors with the structure's design (ratchet straps fighting to tension a steel cable and keep the 2x4s drawn outwards against the center post/netting pulling them inwards) and then expecting these same anchors to handle shock/impulse live loads from the wind. For a 20'x20' structure 8 14" anchors are completely insufficient. I would use at least 16 if you want to keep the same core design/bolt size (since I'm guessing you bought a 50 pack and have extras).

At each corner post have four ratchet lines spread in an evenly spaced arc (in terms of angle) covering anywhere from a 90 to a 120 degree arc, and make sure they're sunk vertically.

These are not normal tent stakes.

Conventional stakes are set at an angle because they are not designed to be used in conditions where they could reach the point of bending/snapping before pulling out. With that in mind, you go for maximum pull-out resistance for shallow/light soil by setting the stake 90 degrees to the guyline (usually about a 30-45 degree angle with the ground).

These are lag bolts. Key differences:

1) You get far more gripping force the DEEPER it goes. The sub-playa is MUCH denser than the top layer. By setting it at an angle you grip more dust and less compacted earth. This means going vertical is better in this regard.
2) In conditions where lag bolts fail it will almost always bend first (as you yourself witnessed). By setting the bolts at or close to a 90 degree angle to the guyline you are INCREASING the bending force on the bolt. As you move away from the angle towards vertical you are reducing the shear/bending force on the bolt and increasing the tensile/pullout force. This is a good thing. Once the bolt starts to bend it torques the bottom of the bolt which causes the threaded section to break free and you now lose tensile load strength as well. So, here too, vertical is superior.

TL;DR:

Use more bolts. Drive them straight down.
ygmir wrote:Everyone loves you there, and no one cares a shit about you..........all at once. and vice versa.

Fan C
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:11 pm
Burning Since: 2013
Camp Name: Mighty Misfits

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Fan C » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:44 pm

Yup moar boltz.

I use 24 3/8ths x 14" lag bolts for my carport.

User avatar
captain voltaveus
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:54 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by captain voltaveus » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:39 pm

That makes total sense. Thank you. I'll upgrade our bolts to the 24 inch ones suggested by figjam and I suppose adding addition anchor points ateach corner would be wise. Small cost for peace of mind.

I truly appreciate the advice.

User avatar
Joeln
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:55 pm
Burning Since: 2014
Camp Name: On our own
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Joeln » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:42 pm

FossaFerox wrote:TL;DR:
Use more bolts. Drive them straight down.
What he said.
Collapse first and avoid the rush

maladroit
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by maladroit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:45 pm

It's not much, but the Fastner Superstore people run a discount code every month for 5% off. This month it's SPACER. I saved almost $3 on my box of FIGLAGs. :roll:

User avatar
Pootzen
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:09 pm
Burning Since: 2000
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Pootzen » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:44 am

maladroit wrote:It's not much, but the Fastner Superstore people run a discount code every month for 5% off. This month it's SPACER. I saved almost $3 on my box of FIGLAGs. :roll:
Still cheaper than what I can buy local in Seattle, and the same price as rebar. Thanks!

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 10376
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by FIGJAM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:04 pm

Been searching and Fastner is still the cheapest, but all the sites keep changing the lengths.

3 years ago I bought 3/8"X18" lags for right at a buck a piece.

Now I can't even find that size ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!! :x
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
Pootzen
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:09 pm
Burning Since: 2000
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by Pootzen » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:21 pm

Would this be a good enough impact driver for 1/2" x 18" lag screws? I have a generator this year so if the battery needs a charge it shouldn't be a problem.

Image


User avatar
The Rod
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Burning Since: 2010
Camp Name: THREAT
Location: USA

Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Post by The Rod » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:47 pm

Man, I think we should all keep posting stock photos of our drills.

I really don't see why any 18v impact driver wouldn't do just fine as long as you could keep the batteries charged.

Post Reply

Return to “Building Camps & Villages”