MINI monkey hut?

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Sundial
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MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:40 pm

So I've done some searching on ePlaya and come across some passing references to the concept, but I haven't found any solid info or blueprints/plans. Is there such a thing as a MINI monkey hut? Something with a smaller footprint than the plans hosted on Chromatest's website? Would love to hear from people who've actually done it, or at least from BM veterans well versed in structural engineering.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:47 pm

Nope Schtev you can't get a building permit for an improper-dimension monkey hut.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:56 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Nope Schtev you can't get a building permit for an improper-dimension monkey hut.
What an incredibly useful reply! =D
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by trilobyte » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:03 pm

You could probably infer something from the lack of posts about reduced sized monkey huts over the last decade. Smaller sized pieces don't bend and flex the same as the bigger/full sized pieces do. Don't take my word for it, be radically self reliant, spend a couple bucks at your local hardware store and get a few pieces of PVC and try it out for yourself.

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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:06 pm

How small are we talking here?

The design is a basically a half circle. So if you used on 10' section of pvc instead of joining two together, you'd get a monkey hut with a width of approx 6' and a height of 3'.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:15 pm

Just goofin on ya Schtev.
I don't see any reason you couldn't scale one down.
I think the only design consideration that would change is the need for smaller diameter poles as the bend radius decreased.
I think you could go all the way down to those flexible springy tent poles if you scale down enough.
Last edited by Captain Goddammit on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:19 pm

VultureChow wrote:How small are we talking here?

The design is a basically a half circle. So if you used on 10' section of pvc instead of joining two together, you'd get a monkey hut with a width of approx 6' and a height of 3'.
It would just be to shade a small tent around 3 and a half feet high. Just trying to establish a reasonable lower limit, since flexibility and thus structural integrity will decrease with size.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:21 pm

trilobyte wrote:You could probably infer something from the lack of posts about reduced sized monkey huts over the last decade. Smaller sized pieces don't bend and flex the same as the bigger/full sized pieces do. Don't take my word for it, be radically self reliant, spend a couple bucks at your local hardware store and get a few pieces of PVC and try it out for yourself.
Yes, one could infer things. But its wiser to ask and draw on community experience rather than make assumptions or rely on backyard prototypes that haven't been tested under playa conditions.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:26 pm

VultureChow wrote:How small are we talking here?

The design is a basically a half circle. So if you used on 10' section of pvc instead of joining two together, you'd get a monkey hut with a width of approx 6' and a height of 3'.
Not by my math!!
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by VultureChow » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
VultureChow wrote:How small are we talking here?

The design is a basically a half circle. So if you used on 10' section of pvc instead of joining two together, you'd get a monkey hut with a width of approx 6' and a height of 3'.
Not by my math!!
Where did I screw up?
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:48 pm

Well it's only a few inches off, I'm being picky. Sorry. One of those days. In my daily world, a few inches screws up everything, on the playa who cares!
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by BBadger » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:28 pm

I think you'd exceed the minimum bend radius of the PVC -- beyond what is probably already exceeded in a Monkey hut already.

What you may consider is pre-bending the PVC into shape with heat, and then bringing that along for your trip. I'm considering using a carport roof this year, but maybe I'll attempt that half-monkey hut too (rabbit hole?). I'm thinking having a radius about 8ft wide might work as opposed to the standard 12ft base. That'd give enough room for a 2-person tent and accompanying supplies.

The only problem is that now you'll be dealing with pre-bent PVC, which may take up more area than some straight PVC tubes. Then again, the tubes are somewhat bent after the trip anyway.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by unjonharley » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:43 pm

It would cost more.. but you could look at the replacement tent rods..
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by BeeWeeDee » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:08 am

Pre-bend some 1/2" conduit perhaps.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Martiansky » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:48 pm

Schtev,
Is the reason you are wanting a smaller monkeyhut due to travel space or do you just want a smaller version?
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:58 pm

Martiansky wrote:Schtev,
Is the reason you are wanting a smaller monkeyhut due to travel space or do you just want a smaller version?
Both reasons. Minimizing travel space requirements where possible is a huge plus for me since I have to rideshare, and a 10x20 footprint seems excessive for just a small tent.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Martiansky » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:05 pm

Ah, I see.
What are the dimensions of your tent?
Starting with that maybe we can figure something out for you.

BTW, glad to hear you will be there again this year!
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by geospyder » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:23 pm

BBadger wrote:...The only problem is that now you'll be dealing with pre-bent PVC, which may take up more area than some straight PVC tubes. Then again, the tubes are somewhat bent after the trip anyway.
They definitely are bent/bowed after a week's use on the playa :D
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by FossaFerox » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:44 pm

There are two big problems with making one smaller:

1) PVC has a minimum bend radius. Normal monkey huts already push hard up against this value. It's a big part of what holds them to the ground (the "straightening" tendency puts a ton of outward force on the rebar they're set on, creating friction without being strong enough to dislodge the posts). A smaller hut means a smaller half-circle which means a tighter arc. With a straight length of PVC it simply isn't possible, the bar will snap first. Now, this shape could be accomplished by heating or chemically treating the PVC to temporarily soften it, but it would have to be done very precisely such that the PVC still had SOME straightening tendency. Otherwise the structure wouldn't have the "grip-anchor" effect a real one does.

2) The thing is going to fail in heavy wind.

The strength of the normal monkey hut comes from it's ability to bend and sway when heavily loaded. This deformation spills the wind and the structure can then spring back into shape. Square/Cube law means a smaller structure is going to be a LOT more rigid. It won't deform as readily which means it will be suffer the full force imposed by the wind, gusts especially. It will fail under circumstances where an identical full sized hut did not. Whether the failure is from the joint on the spine snapping or the thing tearing off it's supports and becoming a kite depends on a lot of factors, but either way you're fucked.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:44 pm

Yeah but wind load increases exponentially as the hut gets bigger, a smaller hut has to withstand less force than full size?

I have seen smaller huts work just fine, I can't give exact measurements or engineering details, but even if you just had two ribs total with normal length pipe sections joined at the top and used a 10x20 or so tarp you could end up with a 10x7 foot or something sized foot print with a hut tall enough to stand in. I'm just totally guessing about the 10x7 sized area because I don't know what maths I need to figure it out...

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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by FossaFerox » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:50 pm

The load will scale linearly while it's ability to deal with it diminishes exponentially. Going in the other direction you lose the stability afforded by bending the PVC to it's critical radius. The size you see commonly used was no accident. ;)
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:11 am

FossaFerox wrote:The load will scale linearly while it's ability to deal with it diminishes exponentially. Going in the other direction you lose the stability afforded by bending the PVC to it's critical radius. The size you see commonly used was no accident. ;)
Well. You're the first person to offer a technical explanation of how the forces at work will change with scale. So I'm gonna take your word for it. Sounds like its best to stick with the standard design if I go that route.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:26 am

Martiansky wrote:Ah, I see.
What are the dimensions of your tent?
Starting with that maybe we can figure something out for you.

BTW, glad to hear you will be there again this year!
This guy right here http://www.mec.ca/product/5027-669/mec- ... ld-2-tent/. Its 7'6" x 4'6", and a peak height of 3'4". I'm thinking though based on Fossa's explanation that its best to stick with the standard design if I do a monkey hut.

As for other ideas, those are already covered in a thread I made last year viewtopic.php?f=277&t=57022&p=865631 . What I took from that thread was pound some larger poles into the ground, stick smaller poles in those, string up some kind of tarp (with slits/holes) between them and guy line everything down.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by VultureChow » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:53 am

I should add that the footprint is actually 10x12 and not 10x20 and it is NOT that much space, especially if half of it is taken up by a tent

If your ride share is cool with 10' pvc, then just go with it. I don't think anyone out there has ever complained about having too much shade.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Riv » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:22 am

Oh, and if you haven't already, look into cutting the PVC into 5' sections held together with 2' "sleeves" of 1.25" PVC. that worked fine for me last year, and a 5' bundle of PVC may be more doable for your car situation.

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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by FossaFerox » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:31 am

I'd actually recommend not doing that unless it's strictly necessary to get it to the Playa. The sleeves are stiffer and create what is essentially a rigid face that catches the wind a bit better while forcing the rest of the arch deeper towards/past (depending on who you ask) its critical radius thus making the whole thing stiffer/more prone to failure.

It isn't as bad as if you were to scale the entire thing down 40%, but it isn't something you can do without giving up considerable strength.
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Re: MINI monkey hut?

Post by Sundial » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:55 pm

VultureChow wrote:I should add that the footprint is actually 10x12 and not 10x20
Huh! I don't know where I got the idea it was 10x20. That instructional page clearly says 10x12. Thanks!

Now I just need to find a ride or rides who is/are cool with 10' PVC poles.
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