City map: Purple & white

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stern_beaver
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City map: Purple & white

Post by stern_beaver » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:11 pm

Hello Burner Hivemind,

I have a question about the city map, such as the one here http://www.burningman.com/preparation/m ... fin-lg.jpg

It says the purple areas are reserved for theme camps, while the white are open camping. We're not camping with a theme camp.

Last year, when we arrived, we scrutinized the map to make sure we were in a white area, aka "open" camping. It was around 6 am, so no one was awake around us, but we carefully avoided places that had been laid out as obviously intended to be used by our neighbors. But once we got our carport up, some people came over telling us we were in their theme camp space and had to move 30 feet over. Setting up twice was awful, and not only did our original space remain unused all week, but the theme camp was incredibly rude to us for the rest of the week. Not a good look, burners.

We would like to avoid this this year. Does anyone know if the purple and white areas on the map _actually_ mean anything? Did it get messed up last year for some reason (namely, around 8:30 & E)? Are there "official" type markers designating theme camp areas that we can watch out for? I can't find anything about this.

Stern Beaver

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Lonesomebri
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Lonesomebri » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:38 pm

As you already know, those people were jerks. This probably has nothing to do with theme camps and placement, and more to do with jerks "saving" space for who the hell cares, while running off actual humans standing right there. My suspicion would be they are a camp without official placement. The space wasn't saved for them by the org, they didn't mark it, it's all chill camp entitlement. They showed up, had big visions, and do not care about others. This has been gone over on another thread, which someone or another will find, but the response is to have the theme camp contact "placement" or BR Rangers and let them sort it out while you enjoy coffee in your stationary shade shelter. But, I know, it's so hard to stand ground when some chill theme camp dude pulls the elitist "I'm giving to the community by running you off" crap. Anyway, yeah, this has little to do with the color on the map.


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viewtopic.php?f=277&t=69155
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Train Wreck
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Train Wreck » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:45 pm

You could always find a black rock ranger and have them radio placement to verify your location isn't reserved. Same thing applies if there is a dispute after setting up.

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VultureChow
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by VultureChow » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:49 pm

Besides the "jerk" part of that, which is of course correct, I think this might actually be a case of theme camp PLACED outside the designated area. I went to pull up the 2013 map, just to confirm that it was open, and I got the moop map instead. And the entire intersection is labeled with various theme camps.

When I pull up the schematic though, it shows that intersection not reserved, except for the double wide village block.

Pink Mammoth is in the non-placed area, and while I guess it's possible that they just claimed that space and then registered it at the burn, there are other labeled camps in the otherwise "open" camping area. Seems like a recipe for confrontation. Of course I'm going by the online map and and not sure what was handed out at gate, but at the very least it's a good reason to wait to meet and talk to your neighbors before setting up camp.
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Just_Joe
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Just_Joe » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:51 pm

Registered theme camps are assigned specific real estate which is marked off with little blue flags. Sometimes the placement team moves a theme camp to an open camping area, but my experience is that they will set new flags when they do this.
In any event, once gates open, any unused space (theme camp or not) is deemed "open" for anyone to camp in. Of course, in a large theme camp there will generally be mid-week arrivals and I'd expect most camps (placed or not) try to hold space for their friends. A vehicle or dummy tent suits this purpose well.
Like has been said, if you want the spot, tell the people to find their placer. More than likely they'll STFU.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Fan C » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:52 pm

I'd go with the newest map ie at the gate.

Also I'd not shy away from calling out that camp on any and all public forums. Fuck 'em that's how social pressure works. Personally I'd move only if it was obvious I was in error. Once the gate opens ALL OPEN SPACE is OPEN.

If a theme camp can't get their shit together with early entry they can explain it to a Ranger.

"Reserved Placement: When you have decided to become a registered Theme Camp/Village you must complete the Placement Questionnaire. If the Placement Quesionnaire is NOT completed, your camp will be welcome but you will not be listed on the Burning Man website or BRC map given to all participants. Also, you may not arrive until our event opens and there will be no reservation for your space. Keep in mind that when you complete the Questionnaire, as well as meet the other criteria for placement, a limited number of your campmates must arrive to the playa before our event opens for set-up. After our event opens, all areas in the city are open and available on a first come/ first camp basis."

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VultureChow
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by VultureChow » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:58 pm

Fan C wrote:a limited number of your campmates must arrive to the playa before our event opens for set-up. After our event opens, all areas in the city are open and available on a first come/ first camp basis."
These statements are contradictory. If it actually worked this way, theme camps wouldn't happen. Since early entry passes are limited to those setting up camp infrastructure, you could run into a situation where 10% of your campers set up everything and then others come in and claim the space reserved for the rest of your campers. Just because they don't get early entry does not mean they're not integral to running the camp.


Personally I take the policy to read that someone must have claimed and started setting up camp in order for you to keep it, ie you can't all show up mid week and expect the space to still be there for you.
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stern_beaver
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by stern_beaver » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:06 pm

Thanks all!

Yeah, I was wondering why when the MOOP map comes out everything is clear as day--makes me wish something like this could be released before the event. We checked after the event and there was a definite discrepancy between the MOOP map outlines of the camp and the purple & white lines--the camp's MOOP outline was in a white area on the city map. Weird.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Fan C » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:31 pm

VultureChow wrote:
Fan C wrote:a limited number of your campmates must arrive to the playa before our event opens for set-up. After our event opens, all areas in the city are open and available on a first come/ first camp basis."
These statements are contradictory. If it actually worked this way, theme camps wouldn't happen. Since early entry passes are limited to those setting up camp infrastructure, you could run into a situation where 10% of your campers set up everything and then others come in and claim the space reserved for the rest of your campers. Just because they don't get early entry does not mean they're not integral to running the camp.


Personally I take the policy to read that someone must have claimed and started setting up camp in order for you to keep it, ie you can't all show up mid week and expect the space to still be there for you.
That's more or less my take as well. Though as far as I'm concerned theme camps are nice but totally unnecessary. A pre placed theme camp is no more or less a participant than anyone else is and the "rules" apply across the board. I've even heard some camps wiging out a bit because they got placed in a slightly different spot. The point is a camp should be self reliant enough that they can get their shit together with an advanced party and not even have to rude to their neighbors.

A real good solution to the OPs issue would be for the theme camp to make a small adjustment to their layout rather than ask someone who followed BMOrgs guildlines to break an already setup camp and move.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by FIGJAM » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm

I can think of a situation that could arise where the MOOP map showed theme camps where the city map showed open camping.

The camp wasn't placed, so they found space in open camping, so when the MOOP map came out, it showed where they were.

This is fine and in line with policy.

I don't think that means they can kick you off of open space that they weren't using when you started setting up.

Tricky situation and the reason to try to talk to neighbors before setting up.

Who wants to start their burn with bad first impressions? :roll:
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by VultureChow » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:10 pm

I can too, Figjam. But looking further at the Moop Map and the map distributed at greeters: http://partnersinsublime.com/wp-content ... 20x157.jpg

There are whole blocks that are "open camping" that must have been placed. Art support camps. Sound Camps, etc.
It's worth noting because you could be looking at the map, and certain that you are in the clear and still be made to leave.

None of this is an excuse to act like a jerk, and holding a grudge for an entire burn must be exhausting. As was said in another thread, it's probably best to move on. You wouldn't want to be camped next to assholes anyway.
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FossaFerox
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by FossaFerox » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:29 pm

How would unplaced camps show up on the MOOP map Fig? I know our camp didn't show last year...
ygmir wrote:Everyone loves you there, and no one cares a shit about you..........all at once. and vice versa.

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Eric
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Eric » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:32 pm

Fan C wrote:I'd go with the newest map ie at the gate.

Also I'd not shy away from calling out that camp on any and all public forums. Fuck 'em that's how social pressure works. Personally I'd move only if it was obvious I was in error. Once the gate opens ALL OPEN SPACE is OPEN.
Incorrect - a theme camp's area does not magically become open space once the Gate is opened. They are allowed (and expected) to have space for their members who arrive after the Gate opens, which with most camps is going to be the bulk of the members. They aren't supposed to keep it open until mid-week, but keeping it through Monday or Tuesday is common, and the placers would back them up. You are also going to find camps like Distrikt and Pink Mammoth that have huge empty areas - because for part of the day those huge areas become dance floors. Other camps have big open areas for bike parking, or because they get a lot of MVs visiting, or because they throw one or two huge raging parties during the week that will fill that space, and their Placer took that into consideration. Don't confuse "open space" with "unused space". It also doesn't matter if you personally think theme camps are "necessary", the BMorg does and it's their playground.

And by all means call them out on public forums - I'm sure there's some sort of clever name for that behavior.
The OP handled the question correctly, and gave us the info needed so we can try to give them advice for this year without shaming a camp when it may have just been a couple of bad apples that caused the problem (or it may have been a camp full of assholes - I wasn't there, I don't know. Other than the OP, none of us were, and we only know one side). Getting a Ranger to call the Placer for that area is the correct route. If they're being real asses, I would consider moving anyway - do you really want them as neighbors for a week?

As for the question of why the map at Greeters isn't as detailed as the MOOP map: there are lots of camps that don't want their location published for whatever reason (serving food but in limited runs, "specialty" entertainment, whatever) and the Org is fine with that. Camps that want their locations known are free to post them (and show up in Playa Info, I believe it's one of the questions when you fill out the questionnaire), camps that want to be more stealth may do so. By the time the MOOP map comes out the event is over & it doesn't matter anymore.
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Eric » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:34 pm

VultureChow wrote:There are whole blocks that are "open camping" that must have been placed. Art support camps. Sound Camps, etc.
It's worth noting because you could be looking at the map, and certain that you are in the clear and still be made to leave.
This year the purple area contains all placed camps - support camps, Org camps, everything, which in the past it didn't. Hopefully it will make it a little clearer.
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Fan C
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Fan C » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:44 pm

Eric wrote:
Fan C wrote:I'd go with the newest map ie at the gate.

Also I'd not shy away from calling out that camp on any and all public forums. Fuck 'em that's how social pressure works. Personally I'd move only if it was obvious I was in error. Once the gate opens ALL OPEN SPACE is OPEN.
Incorrect - a theme camp's area does not magically become open space once the Gate is opened. They are allowed (and expected) to have space for their members who arrive after the Gate opens, which with most camps is going to be the bulk of the members. They aren't supposed to keep it open until mid-week, but keeping it through Monday or Tuesday is common, and the placers would back them up. You are also going to find camps like Distrikt and Pink Mammoth that have huge empty areas - because for part of the day those huge areas become dance floors. Other camps have big open areas for bike parking, or because they get a lot of MVs visiting, or because they throw one or two huge raging parties during the week that will fill that space, and their Placer took that into consideration. Don't confuse "open space" with "unused space". It also doesn't matter if you personally think theme camps are "necessary", the BMorg does and it's their playground.

And by all means call them out on public forums - I'm sure there's some sort of clever name for that behavior.
The OP handled the question correctly, and gave us the info needed so we can try to give them advice for this year without shaming a camp when it may have just been a couple of bad apples that caused the problem (or it may have been a camp full of assholes - I wasn't there, I don't know. Other than the OP, none of us were, and we only know one side). Getting a Ranger to call the Placer for that area is the correct route. If they're being real asses, I would consider moving anyway - do you really want them as neighbors for a week?

As for the question of why the map at Greeters isn't as detailed as the MOOP map: there are lots of camps that don't want their location published for whatever reason (serving food but in limited runs, "specialty" entertainment, whatever) and the Org is fine with that. Camps that want their locations known are free to post them (and show up in Playa Info, I believe it's one of the questions when you fill out the questionnaire), camps that want to be more stealth may do so. By the time the MOOP map comes out the event is over & it doesn't matter anymore.
I get what you're saying, though it contradicts what is published by BMOrg. But hey they're not known for clarity!

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Token » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:04 pm

Dear Stern_Beaver,

It appears there was nothing stern about you in the situation described.

The proscribed method for avoiding this situation is the following:

Pull into vacant spot and survey the location.
Climb on to your vehicle and pull out your big-ass 40W bullhorn.
Proceed to deliver the following statement 4 times in each direction.
Wakey Wakey! Listen up FKO's. I'm moving in here and setting up my camp in 5 minutes. If you want me to move to a different location you have exactly 4 minutes to get your ass out here and produce a bottle of good scotch to lubricate the transaction.

Fuck yer day!
And that is the absolutely right way to do it.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Fan C » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:16 pm

Token wrote:Dear Stern_Beaver,

It appears there was nothing stern about you in the situation described.

The proscribed method for avoiding this situation is the following:

Pull into vacant spot and survey the location.
Climb on to your vehicle and pull out your big-ass 40W bullhorn.
Proceed to deliver the following statement 4 times in each direction.
Wakey Wakey! Listen up FKO's. I'm moving in here and setting up my camp in 5 minutes. If you want me to move to a different location you have exactly 4 minutes to get your ass out here and produce a bottle of good scotch to lubricate the transaction.

Fuck yer day!
And that is the absolutely right way to do it.
Well said!

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by socks2 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:19 pm

Nicely played token

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by trilobyte » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:21 am

Token's words ring true. If it was me, I'd go to the nearest neighbor's camp (assuming there are neighbors on that block), introduce myself, and make sure the space you're grabbing is cool. After you've said your hellos to your new friends, get to work unloading and setting up.

Someone coming up after the fact, and particularly in an area designated as open camping and claiming it was reserved theme camp space, sounds suspicious. Landgrabbing is not cool. While staffers and volunteers who come in early to help with setup of the event are allowed to camp between G and the outer streets, they are NOT allowed to rope off or otherwise self-reserve big chunks of real estate. If they've got a camp they need space for, they need to fill out the placement questionnaire just like any other camp requesting space. If you doubt the legitimacy of their claim, have someone call for a placer.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by shroom » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:41 am

Same thing happened to me in 2010 as the OP. We set up in the dark, just tents to get some sleep. Woke up to start finishing set up and the camp told us we were in their spot, but there were no markers. They tried to shove us in the back corner of their spot and we just packed up and went a few streets over. Nice and peaceful. :D
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Train Wreck » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:58 am

Anyone know how to get a hold of placement as early as Monday before the event starts? I'll be coming in on the 18th and I want to setup camp (after G street), though I want to make sure there aren't any conflicts. That way if there is some asshole claiming I'm in their 'spot' I can calmly explain how they can go about fucking themselves.

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Token
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Token » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:17 am

Train Wreck wrote:Anyone know how to get a hold of placement as early as Monday before the event starts? I'll be coming in on the 18th and I want to setup camp (after G street), though I want to make sure there aren't any conflicts. That way if there is some asshole claiming I'm in their 'spot' I can calmly explain how they can go about fucking themselves.
At the gate when arriving, since that looks like an Art arrival, no?

You can chat them up on that topic, they will let you know where you can camp. Also, not all the roads might be there and driven in, just flags and whatnot.

Last time I did that in 2008 I think, we got placed on B as the roads were not done.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by pink » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:14 am

Fan C wrote:
" Keep in mind that when you complete the Questionnaire, as well as meet the other criteria for placement, a limited number of your campmates must arrive to the playa before our event opens for set-up. After our event opens, all areas in the city are open and available on a first come/ first camp basis."
I read this to mean that if no one in your placed theme camp shows up by the time the gates open, you are SOL, and the space becomes open & available.
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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by Fan C » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:15 am

pink wrote:
Fan C wrote:
" Keep in mind that when you complete the Questionnaire, as well as meet the other criteria for placement, a limited number of your campmates must arrive to the playa before our event opens for set-up. After our event opens, all areas in the city are open and available on a first come/ first camp basis."
I read this to mean that if no one in your placed theme camp shows up by the time the gates open, you are SOL, and the space becomes open & available.
That's how I read it, and that's why I quoted BMOrg. Maybe my reading comprehension is bad I dunno.

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by retropsycho » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:06 am

I'm just gonna leave this here.

"The light blue shaded area does not specify, but rather approximates, where you will find reserved-placement camps: interactive theme camps, camps supporting art installations, and infrastructure camps. Reserved camp space is marked on the playa with blue survey flags. Some of these plots are so large that they may appear unclaimed and available, when they actually are not. Be sure to camp outside the blue flagged zones to avoid encroaching on reserved zones, and then having to relocate your camp."

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Re: City map: Purple & white

Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:45 am

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