Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

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MacGlenver
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Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:42 pm

We bought a 24' diameter, 3v geodesic dome (http://burningman.rengeekcentral.com/Dome.html). We did a test build 2 weekends ago, and all went well, but we found the entrance/exit process a bit annoying (ducking to get thru one of the triangles). We're considering removing one of the horizontal pieces so that you end up with a diamond shaped entrance instead of 2 smaller triangles (like this <>, but rotated 90 degrees).

Is this a reasonable/safe thing to do? How much does this compromise the structure? Anyone with experience or advice would be appreciated.

Did some searching around here and on the interwebs, but didnt find a definitive account of someone doing it -- only people modifying the geometry to avoid the need to remove a pole (below). Was hoping for a second opinion.
http://chopshopcnc.com/site/wp-content/ ... ions-x.pdf
http://dome.zillabit.com/geometry.html

PS -- come by Camp "I call this one 'Old Gregg'" at 6:30 & G for some creamy beige on Tuesday @ 3pm. Tutus for everyone! (as long as "everyone" is only 60 people :wink:) You'll be able to find out if we've been horribly crushed to death by our malformed dome!
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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by Madgirl » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:46 pm

Should be no problem...one missing pole isn't going to compromise the structure enough to make it unsafe.
The playa isn't "home" to anything or anyone, it's not magic, it's just a goddamm camping trip. A really awesome one. -Captain Goddammit

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:35 pm

Madgirl wrote:Should be no problem...one missing pole isn't going to compromise the structure enough to make it unsafe.
Thanks. Curious if you're speaking from experience, or if you are theorizing (as I'm attempting to do).
"just two indecisive cowboys, trying to play a word game." - piehole
"Just apply intelligence and discretion and you should be able to get away with just about anything." - Ugly Dougly

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by Token » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:39 pm

Best way to do it is to remove all C-struts that form the "star" from a B-Pentagon, then run two vertical pipes to form a doorway.

I have that on my domes at home which are permanent install. The top B-Strut in the pentagon and the vertical pipes are 50% thicker pipe size for the increased lode to length ratio.

No reduction in structural integrity when done that way.

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Token wrote:Best way to do it is to remove all C-struts that form the "star" from a B-Pentagon, then run two vertical pipes to form a doorway.

I have that on my domes at home which are permanent install. The top B-Strut in the pentagon and the vertical pipes are 50% thicker pipe size for the increased lode to length ratio.

No reduction in structural integrity when done that way.
Many thanks! Given our limited time, we won't be able to execute on such a plan fully for this burn, but something we can discuss for the next one. Would you advise against just removing one of the horizontal B or C struts for this burn? Bad idea?
"just two indecisive cowboys, trying to play a word game." - piehole
"Just apply intelligence and discretion and you should be able to get away with just about anything." - Ugly Dougly

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by Madgirl » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:58 pm

MacGlenver wrote:
Madgirl wrote:Should be no problem...one missing pole isn't going to compromise the structure enough to make it unsafe.
Thanks. Curious if you're speaking from experience, or if you are theorizing (as I'm attempting to do).
Well I'm no expert but we did it last year with ours and had no problems. Granted, that was with good weather and no hanging from/climbing on the dome.
The playa isn't "home" to anything or anyone, it's not magic, it's just a goddamm camping trip. A really awesome one. -Captain Goddammit

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by TT120 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:57 pm

[Theoretical answer]
Keep people from climbing on it and you'll be ok.
[/Theoretical answer]
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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by Token » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:36 pm

You can pull out a horizontal to make the diamond no problem. Stake well around the spot you remove the strut before you remove it.

Even removing 3 struts for a triangle enterance will be fine.

Domes usually unravel outwards so good staking in the section you modify mitigates that.

Any climbing on a 3/4 inch dome will damage it. Ditto on hammocks.

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:21 am

Token wrote:You can pull out a horizontal to make the diamond no problem. Stake well around the spot you remove the strut before you remove it.

Even removing 3 struts for a triangle enterance will be fine.

Domes usually unravel outwards so good staking in the section you modify mitigates that.

Any climbing on a 3/4 inch dome will damage it. Ditto on hammocks.
Good stuff. Thank you! Ours uses 1" struts, so sounds like well be OK. As for 'good staking', I'm curious what that entails. I'm planning to do lag screws with chain, but also a good bit of 3 foot rebar with Mule tape. Thots?
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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by DoctorIknow » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:07 am

Quick and easy to make a door after removing strut....not a perfect solution but has integrity and can do it in little time.

This is a 4 frequency, so it would be much different for a three.
I use two 10' emt for the "upper" support, and shorter emt for the "bottom."
Just flatten the ends, drill holes, file off razor sharp pieces from drilling, bend accordingly.
Takes up lots of space, unfortunately. I staked it down with deep candy cane rebar and wire to attache the emt to the rebar.

Freeze the video at 0:14 and then the next 15 frames should give you the idea.

[media]

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:58 pm

DoctorIknow wrote:Quick and easy to make a door after removing strut....not a perfect solution but has integrity and can do it in little time.

This is a 4 frequency, so it would be much different for a three.
I use two 10' emt for the "upper" support, and shorter emt for the "bottom."
Just flatten the ends, drill holes, file off razor sharp pieces from drilling, bend accordingly.
Takes up lots of space, unfortunately. I staked it down with deep candy cane rebar and wire to attache the emt to the rebar.

Freeze the video at 0:14 and then the next 15 frames should give you the idea.
Very helpful -- thank you (especially seeing the guying technique)! That's a beautiful dome. Is that 24' diameter, or less?

I'm not sure I see the 10' or the shorter "upper" and "bottom" supports. It looked to me like you just removed sections from the regular dome setup, but I may be being dense.

Wish we had shade like that. We've got a parachute, and maybe will craft something out of tarps. Our dome acquisition was somewhat last minute, and we're dome newbies (but monkey hut pros!).
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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by DoctorIknow » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:06 pm

If you freeze the video exactly at 0:17 (if you miss hitting pause just then, you can back up frame by frame) you will see the two emts supporting the dome. One is pink. It extends 10'.

It's 25', 4 frequency,,,,1/2" emt which means no climbing,,,,or else!
Has held up 4 times on playa.

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:27 pm

Ahhh -- i saw those, but thought they were ratchet straps. Cool -- thanks!!
"just two indecisive cowboys, trying to play a word game." - piehole
"Just apply intelligence and discretion and you should be able to get away with just about anything." - Ugly Dougly

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by MacGlenver » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:45 pm

So, in the end I decided it was too much work/too risky to bother removing a pole for the entrance, given our exhaustion levels and pending party that we were to host. Will have to be a project for next year (yeah, right). The dome held up very well, and I used a 14" lag screw at each intersection at the base, connected with some 1/2" mule tape to guy it down. I'm not sure the tape ever even had tension on it, even when we had some decent gusts. From what I read, I expected our parachute cover to catch more wind than it did, but it seems the weight of the dome was plenty to hold it in place. I might go for half as many guy-downs next year... though it's not like they were hard to put in, so probably better to be safe than sorry.

PS -- domes kick ass. We're probably going to put a silver tarp under our parachute next year (parachute for decoration, tarp for light blockage), but even with just the parachute, the shade was pretty comfortable. I could definitely tell it wasn't as cool as our silver/silver monkey hut shade that we had adjacent to the dome, but it really wasnt bad. It bears noting that our chute was at least twice the size as our dome, so we had double or triple thickness. If it'd just been a single thickness of chute, I think I'd have been pretty unhappy with the shade. Our chute is mostly orange, with some white parts. The white parts let in considerably more heat than the orange parts. The fact that the chute wasnt rain-proof, however, proved a minor issue for Monday's rain storm. Our carpets and cushions got a bit damp, but not too bad.
"just two indecisive cowboys, trying to play a word game." - piehole
"Just apply intelligence and discretion and you should be able to get away with just about anything." - Ugly Dougly

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Re: Geodesic dome entrance - Removing a pole?

Post by B0ysc0ut » Sun May 22, 2016 9:58 pm

My camp has the same size dome as you guise and we removed a strut for a doorway as you are suggesting .

What we found was that the adjacent connections to the gap were more vulnerable (not significantly), but the next set out from those was fine. We used 3/4" conduit and had/have no intention of climbing our dome or hanging hammocks. So if you plan on climbing keep those weak points in mind because depending on the thickness of the conduit the struts may bend (which is not ideal and renders them useless for future use). We also added a second doorway directly across the dome from the "front" door to access our more private camp space rather than go around the dome.

The only time removing a piece in this way could be "dangerous" is if you are planning on climbing the dome with a large amount of people (It would just end up damaging the struts via bending) and potentially cause someone to fall 5' if they anticipate a strut to be there and it's not, kind of like missing the last step but worse.

Note about climbing domes at all: Climb on the hubs as much as possible, avoiding the center of the struts which will bend and are a pain to replace, (especially if you fabricated the dome from scratch as we did). Do not allow people to hang from the dome unless the are holding onto a hub. 1" conduite in the absolute minimum thickness for climbing domes and even then I would recommend 1.5"-2". Thunderdome is a great example of this concept.

Another tip I have is to build the dome while keeping in mind that you will later take out that specific strut for the door, so don't put in on first in the connection for those hubs, because when the time comes to take it out (after you have built the full dome) it's easier if you don't have to "re-layer" the hub with all the pressure of the dome now present. We learned that one the hard way and had to loosen the next 2 adjacent connections to make it possible, then we had to take out the door, rebuild that hub and retighten the connections we had to loosen to alleviate the pressure. All that could have been avoided with more foresight like putting that strut on last in those particular hub connections. I recommend taking building the entire dome and then taking out those connections. Feel free to contact me with any other questions/need for support you may have. [email protected].
Otherwise, I'll see you all on tutu tuesday to drink baileys out of boots ;) and make Old Gregg references.
In dust we trust.

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