Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

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Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Just_Joe » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:10 pm

I started getting our camp information together for the application and noticed there is a requirement for
fire lanes. I'm almost certain this is new, I don't ever remember having to allow for one before.

It's shown here:http://burningman.org/event/camps/camp-layouts/.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elderberry » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:15 pm

Sounds new to me too. And also the Fire Extinguisher requirements. Never recall that one before either.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by trilobyte » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:34 pm

I'm giving this a nudge over to Shelter & Camping, since that's a better fit.

It does seem like expanded information, but it may just be a different way of presenting existing info on the new site. I believe that the need for fire lanes has been important for village layout maps for many years. The fire extinguisher info has been listed in a few different places in the past, and I think different pages (fire art, camps, etc) had a range of different safety tips and advice. I don't read the fire extinguisher section as a requirement as much as I do a guideline... pretty much the same as I do the rest of the page... and the rest of the theme camp resource guide, same as I have in years past. The need for fire safety and fuel safety is nothing new. Offhand I couldn't say if the info on those pages has changed much, I usually just wait until the forms actually open and then read through the info there as I'm putting my plans together (I save and go back to it as I'm putting things together).

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elderberry » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Well let's hope. 12' through the camp is a LOT of space.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:15 pm

The large camps I have been part of had fire lanes of some type. BMORG is the go between of mandatory event insurance/permits and the camps. Each large camp should have a radio to ESD too. Fire extinguishers at a fire festival, the more the better - you should have at home or in vehicle anyway!

How would you feel if your camp caught BRC on wind-driven fire with loss of life and subsequent cancellation of the event?

Each camp has a LNT plan, predict will need a don't burn down the town plan. Look up the Great Chicago Fire of 1871.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by mdmf007 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:31 pm

We need access to get engines in as well as an ambulance. While our QRV units can weave and wind their way around alot of stuff - some camps are monstrous. Often though for many calls we need to transport horizontally or need ALS support for a particular call. Leaving some room to get gear in and out makes all the difference in response time.

Its not a new requirement, but may simply be more out there in front this year in the materials.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by digital » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:47 pm

The event is called "Burning Man" -- Probably a smart idea to keep fire extinguishers around no matter the (perceived) need. I keep a case of them handy at all times.
some seeing eye wrote:Each large camp should have a radio to ESD too.
FTFY

MURS capable radios can be found for under $100. For example, a new Baofeng dual-band transceiver is around $30 on Amazon. Nothing fancy, but worth its weight in gold if you need emergency medical services. I've mentioned this time and time again but folks seem to brush off the idea of keeping Playa911 available. Personally you will not see me leave camp without one (in camp we have a direct line to ESD).

Helpful frequencies in case of emergency:
911 / MURS Ch.5 "Green Dot": 154.6 MHz, PL 97.4
Black Rock Amateur Radio: 440.175 MHz (+), PL 100.0 Hz

The amateur frequency is for licensed HAMs but can be used by anyone in an emergency. Personally, I'd trust the HAMs getting a message to ESD more than MURS.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elliot » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:15 pm

I have read about the fire extinguisher requirement before.
Don't remember about fire lanes, but get this: I already plan to have a Midway in camp, and it can double as fire lane. I just need to move the attraction I had intended for the end of the Midway. (The Bicycle Service will take up one side of the Midway, and the several other features -- piano, foot wash, etc -- the other side.)
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by bigbluedoggy » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:38 pm

We have maintained a 12' driveway from the street into our rear camp area for the last few years, more for convenience than safety. However as a landlocked camp on 3 sides, I don't see an efficient way to have 2 points of access. We had a 100' frontage last year with 150' of depth for our camp. Unless we are able to work something out with our neighbors when we all arrive, I don't see a realistic way to make the dual access thing happen. We never did it as a Fire Lane, but I'm happy to have that requirement as it makes it easier to chase the last minute landgrabbers out of that tempting 12' gap. I've been using a trash fence gate across it.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by AliCat903 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:16 am

I was thinking exactly what bigbluedoggy just said. We leave a lane open into our camp to park cars that show up after setup, but not sure how we would manage an out because of neighbors. The diagrams provided don't make a whole lot of sense unless the camp is on the corner. The fire extinguisher and fuel storage things we do anyway. Just not sure how to comply with these rules (suggestions?) if landlocked on three sides.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Token » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:06 pm

I have no clue how you guys do fire lanes. Even a 8 foot path left as a lane sprouts tents overnight.

I guess it is different in "theme camp" real estate.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Jovankat » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:14 pm

The 250' fire hose length also suggests if your camp is smaller the lane might not be completely necessary. These guidelines are certainly far from clear.

Having an 12 foot path through the centre of every camp is going to leave a lot of gaps in frontage and make delineating between public and private areas a hell of a lot harder. I'm usually all for safety stuff but this seems like overkill.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by mdmf007 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:18 pm

If there is a large fire that is wind driven from camp to camp worst case - or requires one of our tenders from Station 5 out by the airport they are as big as the water trucks, cant turn worth a shit and will be making it rain in force. Common sense goes a long ways.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Jovankat » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:30 pm

Wouldn't leaving gaps between camps be just as good if not better for stopping the spread of a fire by wind?

If you have two 150' x 150' camps next to each other that both have a fire lane through the centre and build their infrastructure all the way to their borders you're still going to have a 150' x 150' block of camp between the two fire lanes. It will just be made up of two different camp's stuff.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by motskyroonmatick » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:11 pm

Jovankat wrote:Wouldn't leaving gaps between camps be just as good if not better for stopping the spread of a fire by wind?

If you have two 150' x 150' camps next to each other that both have a fire lane through the centre and build their infrastructure all the way to their borders you're still going to have a 150' x 150' block of camp between the two fire lanes. It will just be made up of two different camp's stuff.
The only problem I see with this is..... who polices keeping the lane clear and late night arrivals from camping in that open space. It's easier to control keeping an access way open when it is inside camp, visible to all of camp and not possibly walled off by large vehicles at the edge of camp.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Jovankat » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:21 pm

Yeah I really don't want to have to spend my week asking people not to walk through the very centre of my camp to get to the street behind though.

Once guy lines are factored in I'm looking at having a 32 food gaping hole down the centre of my camp. I was hoping to be able to squish into 100 feet of frontage this year. That's not going to happen now.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:21 pm

I would ask the powers that be if an orange construction fence on the street sides that can be removed for access with a big sign "fire lane" would be OK and if the space could be used for soccer, croquet, lawn bowling, limbo, hurdles, cricket, bike jousting, dodgeball or safety third lawn darts in the daytime.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elderberry » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:14 pm

YES! My exact same thought. (This is the second time tonight this has happened. And that never happens.)
Jovankat wrote:Wouldn't leaving gaps between camps be just as good if not better for stopping the spread of a fire by wind?

If you have two 150' x 150' camps next to each other that both have a fire lane through the centre and build their infrastructure all the way to their borders you're still going to have a 150' x 150' block of camp between the two fire lanes. It will just be made up of two different camp's stuff.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by motskyroonmatick » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:38 am

Jovankat wrote:Yeah I really don't want to have to spend my week asking people not to walk through the very centre of my camp to get to the street behind though.

Once guy lines are factored in I'm looking at having a 32 food gaping hole down the centre of my camp. I was hoping to be able to squish into 100 feet of frontage this year. That's not going to happen now.
If you make your fire lane go in to camp at an angle it is much less attractive for those seeking to walk through the block.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by LowePro » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:42 am

This is a toughy. We're thinking of doing something like this, with an arch-shaped firelane with some camp infrastructure on both the inner and outer sides of the arch. The main bar would probably be on the inner side of the arch. Thoughts? Has anyone at Placement offered any more tips?

This is for a smallish camp, 50x150 feet
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Jovankat » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:13 pm

motskyroonmatick wrote:
Jovankat wrote:Yeah I really don't want to have to spend my week asking people not to walk through the very centre of my camp to get to the street behind though.

Once guy lines are factored in I'm looking at having a 32 food gaping hole down the centre of my camp. I was hoping to be able to squish into 100 feet of frontage this year. That's not going to happen now.
If you make your fire lane go in to camp at an angle it is much less attractive for those seeking to walk through the block.
Offsetting our 40' x 15' monkey huts like that would result in a lot of wasted space and I'd probably need to ask for another 50' of frontage. Also other advantages of our previous layout would be lost.

This is going to take some thinking.

It's also ridiculous that you need to upload your layout to access the rest of the application and they specifically say not to use a placeholder file. The PDF of the questionaire is not adequate to create an offline version from. I will absolutely be uploading a placeholder file to get through to the rest of the application like I did last year.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by motskyroonmatick » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:32 am

I hope all of you find an elegant solution to the fire lane challenge. It's a big feature to plop down in a camp that has never had one before. Making it so that it doesn't invite people to walk through you camp to get to the next street will really help the feeling of camp integrity. Having one that goes all the way through that people walk through all day and night is no fun. Been there. Done that. Not good for camp. Angles and closed off ends is how I do it now.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Just_Joe » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:16 am

Don't over think this people.
If you want to dissect the instructions, look for the words MUST, AVOID and SHOULD. I think they allow for some wiggle room.
I will definitely plan for and show an entrance to the camp. It will be marked, and have a chunk of (removable) construction fence on it.
Some camps interpretation of the fire lane may be that is clear of semi permanent structures like RV's and domes, while assuming a normal tent is "temporary" and can be dragged out of the way in a pinch.
Since most of us wont know our exact positioning and neighbor status until arrival, I think that main thing is that we are aware of the need for emergency access and consider it when doing our actual setup on playa.
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elliot » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:26 am

One concern.... Such bright orange fencing is so hideously ugly. I mean, serious eyesore. Even catching a glimpse of the trash fence in the distance is an offense to the senses. Perhaps something less glaring could serve the purpose just as well?
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by digital » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:43 am

Elliot wrote:One concern.... Such bright orange fencing is so hideously ugly. I mean, serious eyesore. Even catching a glimpse of the trash fence in the distance is an offense to the senses. Perhaps something less glaring could serve the purpose just as well?
For us the orange fence is what the org provides. Second, it's a visibility / safety issue. As ugly and bright as it is people still come crashing into ours throughout the week. I cannot think of something that would work as well while providing safety and functionality. The orange trash fence is definitely more function than form.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Jovankat » Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:16 pm

Just_Joe wrote:Some camps interpretation of the fire lane may be that is clear of semi permanent structures like RV's and domes, while assuming a normal tent is "temporary" and can be dragged out of the way in a pinch.
What about rebar stakes though? My camp layout last year did have a 20' gap down the centre between monkey huts (albeit with a dome plonked in front of said gap) but there were rebar stakes in the centre with guy lines off to each monkey hut. If the rebar were pounded all the way in and an emergency knife left hanging to cut the guys would that suffice?

Although I am considering the shade portion of my camp being one giant 90' x 45' structure. Is that now not allowed?

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by unjonharley » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Some thing has changed.. Run in cycles scream and shout..

Now be nice little children and make a path for a first respond ATV to get close to any emergency.. Six-eight feet of clearance is not go to kill you to figure.. Might have to take your shoes off to count to 20
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Dr. Pyro » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:27 pm

I'm happy to say that Barbie Death Village has been ahead of this problem for four years now. We have always constructed our Village with fire lanes designed precisely how the BMOrg is bringing to the table. It looks like maybe finally even they have learned a thing or two.

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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by EspressoDude » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:42 pm

ASR's sketch showing the arc access is not needed because the camp is only 50ft deep. Most blocks are 300ft deep except Esplanade to "A" which is 400ft. In a majority of the city, if your village is over 150ft deep, it likely extends a full block deep. ESD wants access to the middle of the block. 30ft does seem excessive lane width. In fact it is likely the same as a city street!!

For several years Black Rock Power Co-op has occupied a full block A - B, 4:00 - 4:30, roughly 280ft. (300-20ft street) by about 700ft. There have been driveway access lanes from A to B at about 1/3 and 2/3 of the block. They were originally 10 ft, but have been widened to 12, which allows easier access for large trucks.

personal speculation: If the 30ft. lanes stay in the 'rules', street spacing may be less, and more streets in future years
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Re: Theme Camp Requirement- Fire Lanes

Post by Elderberry » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:40 pm

I can definitely understand the need for this access in the case of a village. And they can be placed "between" or separating camps. Which, in my mind at least, doesn't take space from each camp and makes sense. Splitting up a camp with a 12' road is just stealing much needed space.
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