What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

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jimthompsonmd
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What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by jimthompsonmd » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:04 am

My question: Outside of improving the instability of corners--and particularly, sharply-angled corners, what is the evidence that taping a long, square, edge (butt) seam on a yurt rigid insulation panel adds value?

Having worked with rigid insulation in its ordinary construction use, it seems to me that a clean, factory edge seam, tightly taped on both sides, yields maximum strength and stability for a taped bond; this is particularly important for a stretched yurt with a high wind load on the vertical long sidewall. For this reason I am considering not taping the edges between the horizontal and vertical runs where there is no gap because the seam is square (I would tape bottom edges and edges between sheets joining on an angle, for durability).

Total yurt virgin noob (yoob? voob?) here,and not trying to be surly; just scientific.

I am aware (with some skeptical amusement) of the idea that fiberglass particulate flying around is somehow more detrimental to the health of participants than is the assortment of deliberately ingested chemicals. While I agree with MOOP concerns for bits and pieces of detritus, I am unconvinced that a taped seam sheds polyisocyanurate flecks through the tape somehow.

I am aware that taping edges might increase reusability by hardening edges. Care in transport and disassembly should ameliorate that.

I am also aware that many recommendations on this and similar boards are regurgitated folklore mixed in among substantive, evidence- and experience-based fact. I am inclined to the latter. Many of the taped edges I've seen in posts look like crap, and look like they would only weaken a butt joint, either by preventing a tighter union or by gumming up the surface that needs to be used by the seaming tape.

By way of background, I am considering a fairly ordinary H12, although my fellow participants will probably push scope creep until I stretch it 4' longer and a foot higher (1' of extra height seems a better compromise to me than the 2' or 4' higher alternative).

Will I be evicted physically or socially upon arrival for these partially naked edges? Is there evidence for the value-add of putting edge tape between joints which would otherwise be tighter? (I am having my panels delivered direct from the factory by Sikorsky :mrgreen: , so am not worried about protecting them en route.)

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Elderberry » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:29 am

There is only one important reason for taping the edges: MOOP
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by burner von braun » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:40 am

Yep, first and foremost to guard against MOOP

Also, metal tape reduces a possible source of ignition.
I'm not sure there is much structural advantage to speak of.
jimthompsonmd wrote: ...(I am having my panels delivered direct from the factory by Sikorsky :mrgreen: , so am not worried about protecting them en route.)
You're not thinking of cutting your roof pieces once you're on the playa are you, because that is pretty much always a bad idea.

In case you haven't found it yet, there is an extensive hexayurt thread around here with tons of info and ideas (some good, some bad) from years past, that you might find interesting.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by LowePro » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:59 am

4 of my campmates have used hexayurts for 2 years now. They tape off the edges, I assume to prevent shards of Moop and to keep the board edges in decent shape. You mention that "Care in transport and disassembly should ameliorate that" but that is a tall order--we have 12+ people loading and unloading, often in the dark, wind, in varying states of discontent and sobriety. The boards get packed into a trailer with coolers, bikes, and pointy dome poles. The boards get strapped to the roof of SUVs. They travel for thousands of miles with lots of other gear that is also fragile and valuable. Asking everyone to take care not to bump the panels would not work for us. The boards get bumped by drunkies weaving thru camp in the middle of the night, and they don't give a f>. High winds and vibrations sometimes loosen the tape and new tape must be applied on the fly. You might come home to camp after a windy day and one seam has become untaped--especially near the front door. Assembling and disassembling the yurt on the playa is anything but "normal construction use" so keep that in mind, and take advantage of the wealth of knowledge and experience out there. The yurts are very popular, thousands and thousands of them have been built (that's just my best guess 8) and if the masses are suggesting to tape the edges, I'm going to assume they are correct. And yes if they all jumped off a bridge, I would too :wink: If you try something different, by all means, please come back and post your results. Whether it worked or not, that helps the rest of us out!

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by rideincircles » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:27 am

If you have the chance, go ahead and read the entire hexayurt thread. Especially if you plan on building one. There is tons of information in there and most questions have been answered. I posed a few questions and got shot down on some of my ideas in there on making one that could fit inside a vehicle. The hexayurt structure is tried and true and deviating too much from the original design may leave it to be unworthy for the playa.

In general, the bifilament tape or the aluminum tape can be used on the edges, but aluminum seems to be preferred.

I still need to order my supplies, but I am still in the planning stages. Mine will have to fit on the roof of a rental van for the 1700 mile drive there and I need to be certain that it has no issues in transport before I pull the trigger on it.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by jimthompsonmd » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:31 pm

Thanks.
I have read every post in the hexayurt thread before asking my question...

I appreciate the replies; I'm wondering specifically what sort of MOOP accrues from butted edges taped on each side w/ 6" tape, but I think I get it that that is the standard, if vague, answer...I take the notion of not being part of a MOOP problem seriously, but I will be stunned to learn that untaped panel edges are a primary driver of it, having seen quite a few BM photos as part of my background research into going.

The intoxicated will not be handling my panels, and they will be neatly protected in a bundle inside an enclosed trailer, right up until the time I overturn it with my incompetent towing. :lol:

Perhaps I will have time to test a taped and untaped butt joint for structural stability.

Appreciate the replies.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by jimthompsonmd » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:46 pm

rideincircles wrote: I posed a few questions and got shot down on some of my ideas in there on making one that could fit inside a vehicle.

The hexayurt structure is tried and true and deviating too much from the original design may leave it to be unworthy for the playa.
The most irritating transport issue for me is that I'll have to rent a 5x10 trailer instead of a 5x8, because the 5x8 is just a titch too short for an 8' panel, and putting them in at an angle crimps space I need for bicycles. Ah well...

As to deviating, I will admit to being amused at the constant reminder not to deviate from the tried and true. If you look through hundreds of posts as I have--esp on evaporative coolers and shelters--the "do not deviate" becomes an incessant theme.

While I think the sentiment is sound, it's the case that every idea has substantial room for improvement. Neither the hexayurt nor the evaporative cooler remain unimproved in any of dozens of ways, both from their originators and others who have tried improving them.

But the "do not deviate" seems to be a knee jerk reaction as often as it is a well-meant caution. My own approach is to do enough background research to try to be confident that any deviation will be sound, and if not sound, at least sound in principle. And should an innovation backfire, well hey; that's what backup plans are for. Should the whole shebang crap out, well, life goes on. Over the years I've had reasonably good success stealing what ideas are out there and making a handful of improvements.

I love these kind of message boards, because they permit so much dissemination of solid expertise that one can generally dope out which areas are fine to fiddle with and which innovations are likely to leaving you wish you hadn't been creative.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Drawingablank » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:48 pm

jimthompsonmd wrote:Thanks.
I will be stunned to learn that untaped panel edges are a primary driver of it, having seen quite a few BM photos as part of my background research into going.
It may not be a primary source of moop - but there is no source of moop that is acceptable. At all, whatsoever, this is a leave no trace event. Not an it's ok to leave some moop event.
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Elderberry » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:10 pm

jimthompsonmd wrote:
rideincircles wrote: I posed a few questions and got shot down on some of my ideas in there on making one that could fit inside a vehicle.

The hexayurt structure is tried and true and deviating too much from the original design may leave it to be unworthy for the playa.
The most irritating transport issue for me is that I'll have to rent a 5x10 trailer instead of a 5x8, because the 5x8 is just a titch too short for an 8' panel, and putting them in at an angle crimps space I need for bicycles. Ah well...

As to deviating, I will admit to being amused at the constant reminder not to deviate from the tried and true. If you look through hundreds of posts as I have--esp on evaporative coolers and shelters--the "do not deviate" becomes an incessant theme.

While I think the sentiment is sound, it's the case that every idea has substantial room for improvement. Neither the hexayurt nor the evaporative cooler remain unimproved in any of dozens of ways, both from their originators and others who have tried improving them.

But the "do not deviate" seems to be a knee jerk reaction as often as it is a well-meant caution. My own approach is to do enough background research to try to be confident that any deviation will be sound, and if not sound, at least sound in principle. And should an innovation backfire, well hey; that's what backup plans are for. Should the whole shebang crap out, well, life goes on. Over the years I've had reasonably good success stealing what ideas are out there and making a handful of improvements.

I love these kind of message boards, because they permit so much dissemination of solid expertise that one can generally dope out which areas are fine to fiddle with and which innovations are likely to leaving you wish you hadn't been creative.
I can't tell you how many ideas and deviations that I have thought might be great. After making a point to see them on playa, almost all of them were a total mess or had some flaw that either compromised the structure or just bastardized the entire design.

I had the great idea of using velcro to attach plastic windows that could then be unattached and screens put on for ventilation. Boy was that a mistake. Velcro does not stop dust.
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by burner von braun » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:33 pm

I guess my take on evidence of an untaped yurt MOOPing is more about recognizing the potential, and eliminating as much of that potential as possible. As was mentioned, for example, a gust of wind can easily arise out of nowhere and wrestle a panel right out of your hands and slam it to the ground. Without tape, a pranged corner is definitely going to MOOP. We do our very best to prevent MOOP.

Jimthompsonmd, it's great to hear that you're thoroughly researching your burn. There is enormous opportunity for inventiveness and creativity, and there is also a lot of experience and the lessons we have learned over the years that we are compelled to pass along as well, for the sake of the event.

Welcome to eplaya!

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:08 pm

If you tape the edges with aluminum tape you don't cut your fingers on the exposed edges of the panels when you handle them.
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by graidawg » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:29 am

asr9754 wrote:And yes if they all jumped off a bridge, I would too :wink: If you try something different, by all means, please come back and post your results. Whether it worked or not, that helps the rest of us out!
is someone bringing a bridge this year? yay for jumping off bridges!
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by jimthompsonmd » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:37 am

Elderberry wrote:
jimthompsonmd wrote: I can't tell you how many ideas and deviations that I have thought might be great. After making a point to see them on playa, almost all of them were a total mess or had some flaw that either compromised the structure or just bastardized the entire design.

I had the great idea of using velcro to attach plastic windows that could then be unattached and screens put on for ventilation. Boy was that a mistake. Velcro does not stop dust.
That's where the information on these boards is a gift all on its own.

You don't have to innovate blindly; you can leverage real-world experience.

I would have to say that, upon reading some of the posted ideas and failures, I do think there is a difference between trying an educated new approach and making a half-assed assumption something is going to work.

I have an assortment of ideas I'll be trying out on my yurt, and will post back post event. But I intend to leverage the hundreds of posts here so I can stick to the tried and true for the fundamentals.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by rideincircles » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:23 am

Would this tape be fine for taping all the edges? 3" x 50' - $12.89 a roll

http://www.findtape.com/product267/JVCC ... tic%2bTape

Or should the extreme version be purchased? 3" x 50' $19.56 a roll

http://www.findtape.com/product512/Nash ... oil%2bTape

Also, the 3" x 60' bifilament is $14.79 a roll.

http://www.findtape.com/product328/JVCC ... ck%2bItems

What would be any other options?

I am not sure how often my hexayurt will be used or if it will end up getting gifted after this burn. Those are up in the air. I have lots of travel plans in the future and limited amounts of vacation.

Not trying to derail the thread, but it is relevant on this topic.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Elderberry » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:09 am

Either of the first two for the edges. (If you're not planning on re-using your yurt, I'd go with the cheapest foil tape.) You will also find the foil tape helpful in making repairs to the panels.

The 3" bi-directional filament is great for taping non-structural parts of the yurt like panels to tarp, handing windows, etc.
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Elderberry » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:13 am

jimthompsonmd wrote:
I would have to say that, upon reading some of the posted ideas and failures, I do think there is a difference between trying an educated new approach and making a half-assed assumption something is going to work.

I have an assortment of ideas I'll be trying out on my yurt, and will post back post event. But I intend to leverage the hundreds of posts here so I can stick to the tried and true for the fundamentals.
Be sure you post up as you are testing your innovations.

And regarding posted "failures", you can't count on that. One of the worst new ideas I have ever seen (after I saw it on the playa for myself), is still being defended the "inventor". Though I doubt that yurt ever made it back for a second year.
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by maladroit » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:14 pm

This entire thread is based on a lack of research by the thread creator. Camp Danger tape hinges are without question the most common example of hexayurt construction, and they do not pre-tape the ends where the tape hinges are used, because the tape hinge seals the edges anyway. A hexayurt with 6 foot walls should be constructed with 8x4 panels plus 8x2 panels with a tight hinge in between, so it all still fits in an 8x4 stack. The hinge is locked in place with an extra piece of tape on-playa.

Exposed insulation board edges will carry a decent risk of getting you turned around at Gate, I wouldn't do it.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Hey_Dadio » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:47 pm

maladroit wrote:This entire thread is based on a lack of research by the thread creator. Camp Danger tape hinges are without question the most common example of hexayurt construction, and they do not pre-tape the ends where the tape hinges are used, because the tape hinge seals the edges anyway. A hexayurt with 6 foot walls should be constructed with 8x4 panels plus 8x2 panels with a tight hinge in between, so it all still fits in an 8x4 stack. The hinge is locked in place with an extra piece of tape on-playa.

Exposed insulation board edges will carry a decent risk of getting you turned around at Gate, I wouldn't do it.
I think that guy in the back is "taping edges".

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by maladroit » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:54 pm

He's taping the edge of a roof panel. That edge will not be connected to another panel until it reaches the playa. And you don't want untaped roof panel edges grinding together in the wind and sifting fiberglass dust down into your bed.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by jimthompsonmd » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:16 am

maladroit wrote:This entire thread is based on a lack of research by the thread creator. Camp Danger tape hinges are without question the most common example of hexayurt construction, and they do not pre-tape the ends where the tape hinges are used, because the tape hinge seals the edges anyway. A hexayurt with 6 foot walls should be constructed with 8x4 panels plus 8x2 panels with a tight hinge in between, so it all still fits in an 8x4 stack. The hinge is locked in place with an extra piece of tape on-playa.

Exposed insulation board edges will carry a decent risk of getting you turned around at Gate, I wouldn't do it.
Lack of comprehension, maybe? I tried to read and re-read multiple times so I hope it wasn't careless research...

For example:"Anyway, for these reasons, you will see the edges are fully taped. "

And You use tape to seal all edges of the raw panels to protect you and the playa from the fiberglass, and to strengthen the fragile panels. Read more about that here: [[7]] Because the tape hinges you'll make next seal some of the edges, tape-seal only these edges now.

It seemed to me that w/ the approaches defined in these links, there is not a single butted edge or any other panel join which is not taped, either at the start for an individual panel, or by a joint taping technique where the edge itself ends up being taped b/c the hing is made by taping one side when the panels are flat side by side w/ a spacer, and the other side when the panels are hinged.

I am wondering if, for pure butt joints, there is a disadvantage to leaving the butted edges raw and simply taping both sides after they are butted during construction. I understand the disadvantage of fragility.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Zhust » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:08 am

I've been rereading the OP several times and I continue to feel like I'm missing something.

I'm assuming you're dealing with aluminum-faced rigid foam board. The edges have exposed inner foam which is reasonably tough, but it is also easy to pick out and make little bits of mess—especially compared to the durably coated sides. So if that is the case, any foam edges that are exposed at any time while you're on the Playa (specifically, before assembly or after assembly) should be taped to make them more durable. Any foam edges that are sealed as part of a subassembly before you get to the Playa can be left un-taped.

As for asking for "evidence", I'm not sure what you mean. Have you been to Burning Man? It's a weird place. Wind picks up fast and hard. There's usually a reprieve during the night until several hours after sunup, but "usually" means little. Nearly everyone has the "dogs on crack" level of attentiveness, so it's easy to start a project then you've been swept away and it's night before you realize you just left everything sitting around outside (and unless you have perceptive neighbors, half of it is on its way to Winnemucca by nature's airmail.)

And with all that going on, the goal is NO matter out-of-place—"never let it hit the ground" and all that. The clean-up standard is not like at a National Park: it's "one square foot of debris per acre of land", so on a 20'x20' campsite, that's about 1-1/4 square inches of debris, or the area of 2 American quarters. And that's average across the whole event, including under where the Man burns, so plan on blowing the curve and making your personal addition zero. No zipties, no bits of wire insulation, no cigarette butts, no glow sticks. And no bits of foam insulation.

After my first year, I brought a project and my design-rule for assembly was that I needed to "build it drunk, exhausted, and in the dark." I'd add "during a windstorm" if it were applicable—and for dealing with big sheets of foam board, yeah, it is. As it turned out, I was able to build it sober, refreshed, and in daylight with no windstorm—but I did not count on that fact.

So while I can't provide "evidence", I can say that it is very very likely that bumping an untaped corner of foam board insulation on the ground is going to flake off a bit of MOOP whereas a taped joint is far less likely to do so and/or requires more than just a bump on the ground.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Ratty » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:27 am

Zhust. Nicely put. +100% correct. They can lock this thread now.

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Elderberry » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:28 am

Well said Zhust.

We actually had a fully packaged your get picked up by a gust of wind a few years back. I had to run out and sit on it until others could bring some heavy weights to hold it down until the wind subsided. So you can imagine if the wind can pick up a stacked, packed and wrapped Yurt, what it can and does do with an individual panel--and you're dealing with 12 individual panels when assembling your Yurt. (Less if the are pre-taped together, but that just makes a bigger wind kite.)
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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by LowePro » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:03 am

"I am wondering if, for pure butt joints, there is a disadvantage to leaving the butted edges raw and simply taping both sides after they are butted during construction. I understand the disadvantage of fragility."

Yep, you nailed it: the disadvantage is fragility, and any crumbling MOOP that might occur during transport/setup. That's a pretty serious disadvantage--both because picking up tiny specks of MOOP sucks, and because you wouldn't want to plan and build for 6 months only to have your shade structure get damaged on Day 1.

I would pose an opposite question, what is the disadvantage of just doing it and taping up the edges as the yurt website recommends? I guess you spend a few more bucks on tape and 10 more minutes working on the project, but really that's small potatoes. Is there some other reason to resist taping the edges? If it's just cost-savings, I'd recommend skimping on something else--not your structure. It makes for a much more pleasant Burn when your home base is in good shape. My 2C :)

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by Zubeneschamali » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:01 pm

I'm not a yurt dweller, builder, or know anything about how to make a yurt. Maybe some day I will want to. At that time I will come HERE to e-playa board to learn everything I need to know about building yurts from the professionals who basically created this style of dwelling at this event.

<End Rant from someone who fucking hates Styrofoam>

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Re: What is the evidence for taping ALL panel edges?

Post by maladroit » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:49 pm

Haha, I just realized in the time spent on this thread, each of us here could have just taped the edges in question on our own yurts.

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