Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

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sparr
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Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:32 pm

Has anyone tried this? How airtight does your structure need to be for the suction from the chimney to pull air through your swamp cooler's filters instead of just pulling air and dust in through the cracks of your structure?
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by MikeGyver » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:00 pm

As you noted, I dont see heat rising as enough draw to pull air through a swamp cooler. If you go with a Figjam swampcooler and a solar chimney you'd probably be nice and cool.

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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Meat Hunter » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:08 pm

sparr,

I have lived in houses with working chimneys, working fireplaces and working cook stoves for going on 70 years. I am no expert, but I do have a good deal of experience.

In my opinion, in theory, a chimney with a good wind will pull a vacuum. But, practically, I do not see it pulling a strong enough vacuum to pull any noticeable amount of cooling air through the water filter/screen of an evaporative cooler.

The winds on the playa can vary between dead calm and hang on to your hat. I suspect that a chimney would not provide much consistency.

Your mileage may very. If you do have success in cooling your shelter, this would be a good thing to know,
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:23 pm

Meat Hunter wrote:in theory, a chimney with a good wind will pull a vacuum. But, practically, I do not see it pulling a strong enough vacuum to pull any noticeable amount of cooling air through the water filter/screen of an evaporative cooler. The winds on the playa can vary between dead calm and hang on to your hat.
Clarification: A solar chimney relies on the chimney soaking up solar radiation to heat the air inside the chimney, causing it to rise, pulling air into the bottom. This effect would be producing the (slight) vacuum in question, not wind passing over the top of the chimney.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:46 pm

sparr wrote:Clarification: A solar chimney relies on the chimney soaking up solar radiation to heat the air inside the chimney, causing it to rise, pulling air into the bottom. This effect would be producing the (slight) vacuum in question, not wind passing over the top of the chimney.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Eric » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:54 pm

Are you talking about building a windcatcher? Unless you're lugging out all the adobe to build your entire structure, and have a plan to get it off the playa again, it ain't gonna work out there. The building itself is part of the system that makes it work.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by The CO » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:03 pm

sparr wrote:Clarification: A solar chimney relies on the chimney soaking up solar radiation to heat the air inside the chimney, causing it to rise, pulling air into the bottom. This effect would be producing the (slight) vacuum in question, not wind passing over the top of the chimney.
How many bricks do you want to haul? That kind of thermal mass involves a lot of installed mediums.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:07 pm

The CO wrote:How many bricks do you want to haul? That kind of thermal mass involves a lot of installed mediums.
I've noticed those clairvoyant types object to being in so much sun, so I think he's back to a fan or two.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:20 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:
sparr wrote:Clarification: A solar chimney relies on the chimney soaking up solar radiation to heat the air inside the chimney
Yes. We know. Thank you for that.
Are you sure that "we" know? You know and I know. However, the rest of "we" are making all sorts of comments about bricks and wind and thermal mass, so I'm not sure that "we" are all on the same page here.

This idea involves no bricks. It involves no wind. It involves as little thermal mass as possible.

Take a yurt. Attach a "standard" swamp cooler, but with no fan. Add a chimney to the yurt, made of very thin metal, and paint it black on the outside. The sun heats the chimney. The chimney heats the air inside the chimney. The air inside the chimney rises out of the top of the chimney, pulling the air inside the yurt into the bottom of the chimney, pulling outside air into the yurt. If the plan works, that air comes through the swamp cooler, keeping the yurt cool. If it doesn't work, that air just comes through gaps in the wall seams, keeping the yurt dusty :(
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Meat Hunter » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:37 pm

...
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by tamarakay » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:14 pm

Take lots of pictures and let us know how it turns out.
What is your projected shower setup? Or did I miss a thread?
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:20 pm

tamarakay wrote:What is your projected shower setup? Or did I miss a thread?
I haven't thought of anything related to showers that's not already covered in these forums or elsewhere on the web.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:37 pm

sparr wrote:
tamarakay wrote:What is your projected shower setup? Or did I miss a thread?
I haven't thought of anything related to showers that's not already covered in these forums or elsewhere on the web.
You definitely need a shower. And a rubber duckie or two. (It's important to have rubber duckies).
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by digital » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:49 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:You definitely need a shower. And a rubber duckie or two. (It's important to have rubber duckies).
Don't forget Dr. Boner's Peppermint Soap. Because minty balls rule.

OP - Build whatever your mind desires! Burning Man is a great test ground for exactly that. Just be prepared and have a backup plan should anything fail.

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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:49 pm

Why would you even consider going to the trouble of bringing a swamp cooler and not bringing a fan?
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Elderberry » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:55 pm

Just air condition the damn thing, it's a whole lot easier and a whole lot more comfortable.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by LowePro » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:06 am

Doubtful this would work. The swampie works by putting out quite a bit of air flow, 150-200 cfm, that cycles the air inside the structure fairly quickly (every few minutes). The slight updraft that *might* occur from a solar chimney wouldn't generate the air flow needed to really pull air thru the swamp cooler effectively, and as you mention, all the little gaps in the structure would leak hot, dusty air in as well. The swampie works best because it actually creates positive pressure inside the structure, resisting dust and constantly inputting fresh/cooled air. You'd have to power the water pump anyway, so why not also power the fan? Also, the chaotic winds of the playa might negate any updraft/vaccuum effect of a solar chimney, the wind blow all directions, up down and sideways. I wouldn't want a structure with an open tube to the outside world on the roof--just sayin.

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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:52 am

[quote="asr9754"You'd have to power the water pump anyway[/quote]I've seen a lot of designs that use wicking filters instead of drip systems with a pump.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by GreyCoyote » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:06 am

sparr wrote:I've seen a lot of designs that use wicking filters instead of drip systems with a pump.
Ya gotta love a good design.

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Bring it. You know it works, right? :roll:
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by digital » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:09 am

^ In all seriousness, this design might work better for you:

Just let gravity do the work...
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:19 am

The people here understand the convection principle you're trying to harness to your advantage and respect engenuity.
The problem is the effect is way too slight to pull sufficient airflow through an evap cooler. Cooling your structure requires a lot more airflow than that.
You'll have to decide if being innovative is worth living in a solar oven with a hole in the roof raining dust on you.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by sparr » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:08 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:The people here understand the convection principle you're trying to harness to your advantage
Can you help me recognize how that understanding is evident in the comments of The CO, Eric, or Meat Hunter? Their replies give me serious doubts, suggesting that instead they are picturing some completely different principle and idea (such as the mentioned windcatcher). As near as I can tell, Meat Hunter thinks I'm trying to use wind across the top of the chimney and the bernoulli effect to produce suction of air through the chimney, Eric thinks I'm trying to use directed wind to remove dust from the wind before sending the dust-free wind into my structure, and The CO thinks... something about a heavy chimney?
Last edited by sparr on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Token » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:10 am

Sparr, I love your idea. Doable especially with a hexayurt.

I think your big problem on these boards is still the Zorb thread. Lots of sand went up a lot a vaginas in that masterpiece.

This technique has been used for millennia, throughout the birth of our grand civilization.

Three problems to solve:

1. Low airspeed. Not enough air velocity for the minds on this board to comprehend a solution.
2. A classic chimney design does not have the needed surface area, volume nor the optimal angle to heat effectively by the sun.
3. Your cool chamber will need to be sealed up tight for leaks so that all convection generated airflow is forced through the phase change medium.

All problems can be solved in a HYurt easily.

1. If you have a sustained low velocity airflow, you can increase the air volume and also increase the phase change surface area.
2. 50% of the hexayurt roof will at some point in the day have optimal angle and large surface area exposed to direct sunlight.

So, to do this you could take a roof triangle, frame it up, lets say 1 ft, sheet-metal the triangle and leave an opening at the apex. Create openings in the base of the roof triangle down into the living quarters, make sure they can be sealed when the sun moves.

~ 30 square feet of heating surface, ~ 30 cubic feet of hot air that wants up.

Repeat on two other roof triangles that will get full sun exposure during the day, as the sun moves east to west.

At the wall base under the opposite side, build your heat exchangers such that you can draw outside air into the yurt, again design a plug or seal from both inside and outside (dust) so you can adjust.

Figure a way to put this kind of Turbine Vent on the top and you are golden!

Image

It is allot of tinkering, but not really that complicated.

From a mad scientist, Mosquito Coast kind of perspective it is all fan-fuckin-tastic stuff.

Full props for thinking out-of-the-box and doing it all wrong!

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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Ratty » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:28 am

I was researching the old thread about hexayurts in 2010. viewtopic.php?f=277&t=26890&start=240 Very interesting about them using turbine ventilators. Oh Elderberry, Those stakes you wanted back in 2010 are now sold with upscale pop-ups. You know, the kind with a high pointy roof.

Spar, site.eplaya turbine ventilators

Spar here the old zorb thread http://playaevents.burningman.org/2012/ ... vent/6550/

site.eplaya zorb
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by unjonharley » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:41 pm

Chimney Effect

The warmer air in a closed space tends to be at the top of the space..

A black metal (stove) pipe/vent at the top.. This will vent the warmest air from the top of a closed space.. Little to no velocity in the escaping warm air.

A slight velocity is gained when the sun heats the (black) metal pipe.. The suns heat radiates through the metal.. Making the hot air in the pipe move up/out faster.. The air in the closed space moves faster to replace the hot air going out of the pipe..

To increase the chimney effect..Suspend a plastic closure around the stove pipe.
Encasing to pipe so the radiant heat of the sun is not subject outside temperatures or wind chill..

On the playa you may experience a blow back from a wind burst..

This chimney may be an excellent exhaust for a hex or a hex with a swamp cooler.. Or even a van..
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Canoe » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:38 pm

sparr wrote:Has anyone tried this? How airtight does your structure need to be for the suction from the chimney to pull air through your swamp cooler's filters instead of just pulling air and dust in through the cracks of your structure?
You've nailed it. It's impractical to seal your structure well enough so a solar chimney's draw won't pull dust through cracks.
Additionally:
  • The minor envelope vacuum created by a solar chimney will have competition between leakage through cracks (bringing in hot air with dust) vs. through a swamp-cooler's filter and ducting.
  • That vacuum, even if in a perfectly sealed structure, is insufficient to provide enough air flow through a swamp cooler to do a useful cooling job.
  • Wind blowing into a swamp-cooler on the playa can cause some air flow through the unit, for some token cooling while the pads are still wet. So technically, a solar chimney and leaving the pump on low (to ensure the pad stays wet - a dry pad lets hot air with dust through) would provide some cooling to your structure while you're away. Unfortunately, so little cooling that your body heat added to the structure upon your return would quickly heat it up too hot. So you're going to want to have a fully capable swamp cooler: a powered fan to draw air through the swamp cooler, pushing the cooled moist dust free air into the structure, and that when turned on will quickly cool down the inside; your passive solar chimney pulling through a swamp-cooler prior to that, would provide you with a cooler interior for five to ten second sooner than using a powered swamp-cooler alone - there's no point. (You do NOT want such a fan exhausting to the chimney, as you'd have a strong envelope vacuum and pull all sorts of hot air & dust through cracks, while having inefficient air flow through the swamp-cooler.)
  • ABS tube is an easy solar chimney. Kills flow a little to put an H on top, but that will stop most of the rain from getting in. You could try a short M, but I haven't seen results for that.
  • You'll likely need a tall chimney, and any chimney has to be braced against the strong playa winds.
  • Unfortunately, black ABS (or other suitable chimney material) will also conduct heat into the structure. To prevent this, you need a thermal break between the structure and the solar chimney.
Solar Chimney for Grey-Water?

Now, such a solar chimney on the playa might work for venting a black-coloured grey-water container: both heated in the sun to maximize evaporation, with the solar chimney venting the hot moist air away. (will the solar-baked hot moist air be less dense than the ambient dry playa air?)
But you may get some help with draw by wind passing the chimney, with the right cap design.
For grey-water sanitation, expect to have to add some bleach during the week, and to seal and take home the remainder for safe disposal.
MUST be braced to ensure a strong wind doesn't tip your grey-water container over.
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Eric » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:10 pm

Ratty wrote: site.eplaya zorb
formatting is critical for this google trick to work - it needs full URLs:
site:http//eplaya.burningman.org zorb (or any search term/s)
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Ratty » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:17 pm

Eric. I agree wholeheartedly with your search instructions. Somebody else came on here to 'set me straight'. (I freely admit that any 10 year old has me beat at tech stuff.) anyway, I tried it his way and got a whole bunch of crap show up in the search. Your way works like a dream AND I love seeing all the old posts. Thanks.

Edit...OK now I get it. digital wants me to remove only the http:// If I do that, the results are almost exactly the same as your search. Sometimes it will be off by just a couple results. Like 19,010 to 19,012. You're both right. win win
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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by digital » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:36 pm

Ratty wrote:Eric. I agree wholeheartedly with your search instructions. Somebody else came on here to 'set me straight'. (I freely admit that any 10 year old has me beat at tech stuff.) anyway, I tried it his way and got a whole bunch of crap show up in the search. Your way works like a dream AND I love seeing all the old posts. Thanks.
Ratty - I never tried to "set you straight." I mearly tried to point out that you can save a few keystrokes by typing it more efficiently. (We programmers like efficiency.) It was simply a suggestion. A "life hack" so to speak. I hate typing http:// ... Maybe others find a more efficient format useful.

Eric's format does indeed work. However, Google is smart enough to know the site needs either "http://" or "https://" before the site domain. Per Google's own instructions the correct format is:

[search phrase] site:eplaya.burningman.org

(You used a period, Ratty, not a colon. That would of course change the results.)

Apologies if you took offense to this. I was merely trying to be helpful and correct a common misuse of Google operators. But of course use what works for you. It's America. ;-)

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Re: Solar chimney + unpowered swamp cooler

Post by Ratty » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:40 pm

just Wow digital. I didn't mean it in a harmful way. People 'set me straight' all day at work. I'm in a casino and everyone is an expert. Sorry. It's just a saying. I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. Like I said. I know nothing about these machines. but I'm happy. :D
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