Open camping - planning for 2016

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.
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Ann_Vader
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Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:48 am

I don't know who "they" are, but they tell me I should plan a year in advance... so here goes.

I did a bunch of East Coast regionals this year and last, Frostburn, PDF, Firefly, Transformus and I'm off to Alchemy in October. I belong to a camp that does regionals - and no longer does the big burn, but I'd like to go. Even if I never go again I'd like to live the big burn at least once.

I'll likely be going with a few friends and I'll be flying into Sacto from DC. My brother lives in Novato and we have the DC container available so getting stuff out there and back isn't a problem, between shipping some things to my brother's and sending stuff out on the container.

We have some playa vets in our group, and we've all done numerous regionals, are involved in organizing local events, etc. We aren't newbies, but I don't think anyone in our group has been to the desert since 2011. And no one in our group has ever done open camping. Always part of a placed theme camp with a ton of infrastructure.

So this will be different for us.

We'd like to camp in open camping and arrive on opening day. We should have about 7 tents, some communal shade/kitchen area, an evapatron/shower set up, and probably 2 vehicles.

Based on everyone's 2015 experience are we better off in walk in camping, and leaving cars elsewhere, or trying to find space in open camping where we can park cars with our camp?

I'm thinking somewhere between 2 and 6 on the outer streets, depending where we go.

Also, I've been reading that people were really bad about dealing with their MOOP this year. Ughh. Are people going to dump their garbage in our camp? I listened to a lot of BMIR and heard reports of people dumping gray water in the portas, etc.

And finally, theft - lets talk about theft. I know bike theft is a thing and I'm prepared to lock my cruiser when I'm not on it. Howabout theft in open camping or walk in camping? Does this happen? Am I going to have to put effort into keeping my solar panels and solar genny from walking off if we are out in open camping? Do people rifle through tents?

Its going to be really novel for us not to be involved in a theme camp because we always are! I'm looking forward to just volunteering and experiencing the playa with dear friends.

Tell me about your open camping experiences!

AV

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Ratty
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ratty » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:10 am

We don't have much worth stealing in our camp. Our bikes would definitely walk off if not locked. On burn night I put my bike in my tent and locked the bike and my bike trailer. When we came back BOTH tents had been unzipped. Looters. Everyone in camp locked their cigs and alcohol in their cars all week. I don't know what you can do to secure your valuable electronics.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Bless » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:22 am

Hi Vs. Vader and welcome to ePlaya!

I oftentimes avoiding listening to "them," but planning a year in advance is pretty sound advice.

It sounds like you are already locally connected, but make sure to link up with the various DC-focused burner Facebook pages and groups. There is usually a burner happy hour every week at Local 16 in addition to other weekly events at Zeba Bar.

Although it sounds like the group you belong to no longer makes it to TTITD, there are plenty of DC-based camps that do make the trek, most notably: It's All Made Up (IAMU), 88, Home Rule Village, Camp Monkey Business, and others. Most of them have associated Facebook pages and local events.

As far as camping, I have never experienced walk-in camping, so I can't help you there. However, there is plenty of open space (not reserved for theme camps) where you can settle down on Sunday within the city.

It is unlikely that people will dump garbage in your camp while you are stationed there. But, after you strike camp and clean up, make sure to take a picture of your camp site so that you can show it to Playa Restoration in case any mischief occurs after your departure. Most of this miscreant behavior happens later in the week. This year, I noticed several gallon jugs filled with piss left in the portos on Saturday and Sunday. Pretty disgusting.

As Ratty said, don't leave anything valuable or delicious in open view. Make sure to pack it away when you leave camp or lock it in your car (just don't lose the keys!). You may occasionally find a wayward drunk snoozing in your sleeping bag.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Drawingablank » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:27 am

Welcome to Eplaya.

Walk in camping is generally empty and a good place for those who crave solitude and silence, otherwise there are plenty of spots available in open camping. More about this can be found on my web page at http://grasshoppernight.org/campspot.php

Theft - get to know your neighbors! Everyone keeping an eye on their neighbors camps while they are out is the first line of defense. Generally most theft is easy pickings like phones or other small electronics left in the open when camp is empty. I've had people radically self gift my beer and ice water when not in camp, but not enough to cause any real concern as long as they close the cooler. The exception is burn night - lock everything of value in your vehicle as the city will be mostly empty except for those who intend to steal stuff.

Garbage - don't leave your trash bags next to the street as randoms will tend to dump whatever they are carrying in them if it's convenient. Other than that it is really a non issue.

Hope to see you at PDF in a few weeks (will be happy to answer any questions in person - stop by Foundry Camp).
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Ann_Vader
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:37 am

It sounds like you are already locally connected, but make sure to link up with the various DC-focused burner Facebook pages and groups. There is usually a burner happy hour every week at Local 16 in addition to other weekly events at Zeba Bar.

Although it sounds like the group you belong to no longer makes it to TTITD, there are plenty of DC-based camps that do make the trek, most notably: It's All Made Up (IAMU), 88, Home Rule Village, Camp Monkey Business, and others. Most of them have associated Facebook pages and local events.
Hi Bless!

I'm locally connected alright ;-) I'll be at Zeba at Saturday. And we have something we are doing for IAMU afterwards.

Part of the fun for us is planning on going as our little self reliant pack.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:43 am

It seems to me that Novato isn't so much closer to Sacramento than it is to SFO or Oakland airport, and those are likely to have lower rates. Unless it's that whole "you can't book from National" thing, in which case... well, I know it's a pain.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:50 am

Ratty wrote:We don't have much worth stealing in our camp. Our bikes would definitely walk off if not locked. On burn night I put my bike in my tent and locked the bike and my bike trailer. When we came back BOTH tents had been unzipped. Looters. Everyone in camp locked their cigs and alcohol in their cars all week. I don't know what you can do to secure your valuable electronics.
Ok, this is helpful. Sad, but helpful. Secure stuff in cars on burn night, I guess?

So different from the regionals.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:56 am

theCryptofishist wrote:It seems to me that Novato isn't so much closer to Sacramento than it is to SFO or Oakland airport, and those are likely to have lower rates. Unless it's that whole "you can't book from National" thing, in which case... well, I know it's a pain.
There has been a super cheap DCA to Sacto and back round trip for the last year or so. Might be an anomaly, but it was cheaper for my brother and fam when visiting me to fly in and out of Sacto and get a car service between Sacto to Novato, than it was to fly from Oakland to BWI, which is closer to both of us. Strange, isn't it?!

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:02 am

Drawingablank wrote:Welcome to Eplaya.

Walk in camping is generally empty and a good place for those who crave solitude and silence, otherwise there are plenty of spots available in open camping. More about this can be found on my web page at http://grasshoppernight.org/campspot.php

Theft - get to know your neighbors! Everyone keeping an eye on their neighbors camps while they are out is the first line of defense. Generally most theft is easy pickings like phones or other small electronics left in the open when camp is empty. I've had people radically self gift my beer and ice water when not in camp, but not enough to cause any real concern as long as they close the cooler. The exception is burn night - lock everything of value in your vehicle as the city will be mostly empty except for those who intend to steal stuff.

Garbage - don't leave your trash bags next to the street as randoms will tend to dump whatever they are carrying in them if it's convenient. Other than that it is really a non issue.
Thanks for the welcome, Drawing A Blank!

This is really helpful. I'm kind of liking the idea of having a little haven out of the hustle and bustle, which is one reason walk in camping appeals. I'll have to see how everyone else feels about that...

And trucking stuff back to the car burn day is going to be a thing.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:34 pm

Ann_Vader wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:It seems to me that Novato isn't so much closer to Sacramento than it is to SFO or Oakland airport, and those are likely to have lower rates. Unless it's that whole "you can't book from National" thing, in which case... well, I know it's a pain.
There has been a super cheap DCA to Sacto and back round trip for the last year or so. Might be an anomaly, but it was cheaper for my brother and fam when visiting me to fly in and out of Sacto and get a car service between Sacto to Novato, than it was to fly from Oakland to BWI, which is closer to both of us. Strange, isn't it?!
Yeah, as I alluded to, there is this weird black out effect from National to SFO, 1 flight a week (or maybe a day). This dates back decades to when they opened Dulles, and wanted to make sure that people used it. So, I can believe that Sacramento works out better. Also, traffic from Brisbane to Novato could make it longer.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by fireheadwhale » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:12 am

I was wondering where to post this. Seems this is a good place. I am a virgin, call me a bucket lister, I'd like to experience Burning Man. I plan a solo camp. My concern is that I would be driving a pick-up truck to the event and my worry is that passers by would toss moop in my pickup bed. Is this a thing that happens? Legitimate concern?
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Jackass » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:32 am

There's only about 20,000 other trucks out there as well, so no, not a big concern...
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:57 am

I wouldn't recommend walk-in camping unless your top priority is being way the hell out by yourself.
Otherwise, there are reasons it's so sparsely populated out there. Not having your vehicle at your camp sucks, carrying everything all the way out there sucks, having to go that far every time you want to see or do anything sucks. It sucks on purpose to keep it empty.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by AntiM » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:19 pm

fireheadwhale wrote:I was wondering where to post this. Seems this is a good place. I am a virgin, call me a bucket lister, I'd like to experience Burning Man. I plan a solo camp. My concern is that I would be driving a pick-up truck to the event and my worry is that passers by would toss moop in my pickup bed. Is this a thing that happens? Legitimate concern?
Potentially, but you'd be helping by securing and hauling out the MOOP. Also, potentially not because you're on an outer ring.

My art project tends to collect MOOP, as does my gifting box. I pull the box in on Saturday afternoon, or I get "gifted" what others do not want.

Maybe you could put a tarp/folding cover over the bed while the truck while it is parked?

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Savannah » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:31 pm

Welcome, Ann Vader. :)

It's true--theft is most common with unlocked bikes, visible booze, and expensive tools left laying out. Unlocked cars are sometimes rifled through on Burn Night. (My campmate's sadly visible iDevice was stolen from a visible spot in the unlocked van in 2009.) It's like any other town of 70,000 on a Saturday night; there are a few bad apples. Or drunk apples, desperate to borrow a bike (or mistaking yours for theirs) for not-inconsiderable distance across the playa. Thieves stand out in a crowd of a hundred or a few thousand, but the larger a population gets, the more easily a few miscreants can blend in.

Many camps keep a seasoned veteran back at camp while the man is Burning, just to walk around and keep an eye on things.
Ratty wrote:We don't have much worth stealing in our camp. Our bikes would definitely walk off if not locked. On burn night I put my bike in my tent and locked the bike and my bike trailer. When we came back BOTH tents had been unzipped. Looters.
That's terrible, Ratty! . . . Not to mention slightly unusual, as far as actually unzipping the tent; that's way bolder than anything I've encountered.

I was embedded in the middle of a block (quite literally) this year and without street frontage, so locking the truck, locking the bike and zipping the tent was enough (and we did have a resident or two lurking about). I don't lock up the booze, but I do put it out of sight.

If I'm feeling like it's a risk next year I'll leave my lantern on and/or maybe a radio--something that implies someone is inside. the tent Most thieves don't seek confrontation; otherwise they wouldn't wait for Burn Night, when just about everyone is reliably away from camp.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ann_Vader » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:15 am

Thanks for the welcome Savannah!

My home camp served noodles at a local decompression party last Saturday night and I spent some time with some people I know, who were fresh off the Playa. While it sounds like they had a fun time in their big camps, I'm absolutely committed to camping with just a few close friends. I like the idea of being responsible for our own needs and controlling the level of drama through selection.

I'm pretty tight with my home camp and we do a lot of stuff year round together, which includes a number of regionals. I can't think of a better group of people to burn with. I'm spoiled, we plan, we share responsibility, we execute, we take care of each other, we shenanigan!

As for the desert, I'll definitely miss serving noodles to burners, but the people I'll be going with are most excellent! We just need to find the right geographic location in BRC.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Lykke_Komorebi » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:46 pm

I'm also planning/hoping to be new to burning man in 2016. Your post and the responses to other more experienced burners has been really heartening! Best of luck and I hope to see you there this coming year!
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by motskyroonmatick » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:00 pm

Ann_Vader wrote:We just need to find the right geographic location in BRC.
In the past when I was planning the location for the next years camp I referenced the satellite or overhead imagery from previous years, the actual theme camp map(they vary slightly from the published map that you get at gate), the MOOP map(sometimes a nice person overlays the moop map on an overhead view of the city) and used a printed out basic map as scratch paper for notes and logistics planning.

The overhead imagery shows you camping density. Where camping is very dense it is harder to find the exact space you want to have for your camp. I interpret the less dense areas as settled later and easier to get the right spot. Looking at the theme camp maps will show you where the open camping space typically is in the city. It will change from year to year but I think the changes are not substantial enough to create planning hurdles that a nimble and flexible camp can't breeze right past. The moop map shows some neighborhood characteristics by how much moop is left. It is probably wise to take in to consideration the areas that have large swaths of red and yellow and avoid them.

I think if you arrive right at gate open you will easily find a great spot. There are open camping areas mixed in with the theme camp areas in spots and finding one of those areas might help you get closer in so everything is not so far away. Really though every neighborhood has great things going on within mere steps any direction from the front of your camp. Be sure if you are looking in theme camp areas that you do not set up in an area that has blue flags on the street front or running through the block. Blue Flags mean the camping area there is reserved for theme camps or support camps. Talk to your neighbors before setting up to learn what's going on in your immediate area and that you are taking an unoccupied space. A brief conversation with neighbors helps to find out if something you want to avoid is going to be happening right near your camp. Like amplified music at an hour that your camp would find inconvenient.

From 4:00 to 2:00 I would try to avoid camping with radial street frontage on the lower time side of the street so that you don't have to take the full force of the prevailing wind. The same goes for 7:00 to 10:00 but the higher time side of the street.

Radial streets are way busier than the named streets in terms of traffic and noise.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ratty » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:02 pm

Welcome to eplaya LykkeK, Now get over to the 'Introduce Yourself' thread and put up a post telling us a little bit about yourself. Just click on the "Board Index'. Then on the 'Introduce Yourself'.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by LowePro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:32 am

Hi Annie
I've not done walk-in camping, it seems more remote and you can't take your cars out there, so if that's the experience you're looking for, great! But most people do open camping with their cars in the city. Outer rings of 2 to 6 area is a good place to look for a small group such as yourselves.


Moop can be problematic, it seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you keep your own camp tidy, then you're less likely to attract other litter. Lead by example and pick up random moop while you're out and about. It really does make a difference.

Theft: common sense applies. Lock your bikes, always. Hide your valuables. Later in the week there are more partiers and security becomes more important. I always lock my vehicle and keep important stuff out of sight. I'd guess most theft is opportunistic, things that are not tied down that look obvious. A simple chain around your genny, or putting the solar panels on top of a vehicle out of sight, or even just throwing a blanket over your speakers can help. Make friends with the neighbors and look out for each other. That said, it's not unusual for someone to come into your shade structure and hang out for a bit, uninvited. They are not necessarily a thief, could just be having a "moment"

Hey, even if you're not a placed "theme camp" you guys could still bring some of your camp offerings and set up a great camp. Many camps do this, you don't have to be "official" to bring art or interactive things to offer. Just a thought since you guys sound like you really know what you're doing).

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by CyanEssence » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:18 pm

Ann_Vader wrote:
And finally, theft - lets talk about theft. I know bike theft is a thing and I'm prepared to lock my cruiser when I'm not on it. Howabout theft in open camping or walk in camping? Does this happen? Am I going to have to put effort into keeping my solar panels and solar genny from walking off if we are out in open camping? Do people rifle through tents?
AV
Zendo, a group that does psych support, and which is staffed with somewhere around 8 people, 24/7, had their generator stolen from the 9 o'clock side this past year (2015), early in the week.

I use a small luggage lock on my tent. I know it could be broken into, but it prevents the more opportunistic invasions (like the drunk looking to sleep it off, and hopping into my sleeping bag, and the people who apparently like to shit in other peoples' tents...).

Some groups have a volunteer or two to stick around camp in shifts during big burns, in order to prevent theft.
Ann_Vader wrote: Its going to be really novel for us not to be involved in a theme camp because we always are! I'm looking forward to just volunteering and experiencing the playa with dear friends.
AV
I love going without a theme camp, so much freedom, so many opportunities to meet all kinds of new people.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by BBadger » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:21 pm

Probably one of my best years was an unplaced camp we had out in the I-ring that we claimed after the gates opened. Lots of room, cool neighbors, a nice ride out to the playa, and pretty close to the bathrooms too. Very nice and fun. I would definitely bring your cars and use them to help define borders for your camp in addition to allowing you to haul in larger stuff like car-ports or monkey huts if you have them.

As for stolen bikes, I've had lots experiences with stolen bikes:
  1. Our first year, the bikes of myself and three friends were all stolen at the same time and same place after we had parked them to look at some cool stuff. It sucked, but we also had a spectacular burn on foot and fortunately our camp was on the C-ring that year. The supreme irony was that the over-priced bike lock I bought in Reno was on the bike that was stolen! I still have the key!
  2. Another year (the year we were camped out on the I-ring) a camp-mate had his bike stolen from inside the camp on the first night while we were setting up. We were really surprised that it happened. We were way out in the boondocks and there were so few people around us.
  3. Yet another year, there was an asshole thief who used social engineering to make it appear that he belonged to our camp (there were a lot of people we really didn't know closely). Fortunately for him, the only bike we had spare for him was this terrible bike we brought that didn't have a seat. Also my friend was suspicious, and we followed the guy because we thought he knew a good place to go. After some questioning, my friend pieced together that the thief was not who he seemed, and when outed the thief slunk away as the rat he was. We brought our stolen bike back to camp, so we didn't lose it.
  4. Finally, this past year, we went to see a flaming piano launched by a trebuchet (common occurrence right?), and after that was said and done, we discovered that someone had stole a friend's bike (a burgin; she'll never forget to lock it up again like me) that had been parked near our own. This was near the end of the week too. Stay vigilant!
So lock up your bike. Theft happens. It happens everywhere and any time during the week. Some people don't bother because they have well-decorated stand-out bikes, but I'm still very paranoid about locking up my bike no matter what. "It never happened to me" only holds as long as it doesn't happen to you.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ratty » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:29 am

I mentioned earlier that my tents were opened during the burn while we were out. I forgot to say that there was at least a half inch of dirt covering everything in both tents. By the time the gates opened both tents had been trashed by the dust storm. I took the lazy road and never bothered to clean them out. Yes, you can adjust to anything. They were just for storage. Everything was in bins with lids, (food, costumes, kitchenware). The second tent had hardware and our foam and fur bike seat covers that we install for people. I would love to have seen those looters faces when they shined a light on that monotone landscape.
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by AntiM » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:00 am

We've yet to have anything stolen from camp, but we've been lucky. Valuables such as wallets are locked in the vehicle, out of sight, or are with us. Larry and I do stay near camp during the burns unless we're doing conclave, and the rest of the camp is out and about. We don't lock bikes in camp, but they are not on the street, and we're part of a village with many "eyes".

Last year we had bottles of booze appear in camp. Weird.

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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Ratty » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:33 am

Oh, That must have been me. I'll come by and pick them up next year. :)
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Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Akela » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:35 am

I'm definitely both spoiled and biased because in four burns I've never camped further back than D, and I like being up front with the noise and the traffic, but I can't imagine setting up camp separate from my vehicle all the way back in the walk-in zone. It's so far, and I'm such a disorganized and heavy packer, everything about that just sounds terrible. There's plenty of space for open camping closer in; I'd avoid walk-in unless you really actively need the solitude that comes with such a supremely inconvenient proposition.

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danibel
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:50 pm
Burning Since: 2009
Location: Ben Lomond, CA

Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by danibel » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:59 am

We camp at 5:15 and H-J-I or so. We haven't had anything disappear, but we lock up all the valuables all the time. As people have mentioned, they lock up everything tight on burn night. My friend that brings a solar panel has a chain on it to his van. If someone really wanted it, they could use bolt cutters and make off with it, but so far no one has.

We stopped having community garbage bags in the main shade a couple years ago, and it's has cut down on the total amount of trash by half! I recommend making all campers responsible for their own moop. I do think that having community trash where just anyone could drop a cup or something contributed to our camp taking home a lot of extra moop. No more.

I bring a 5 gallon bucket with a very tight lid that is used as a compost in the kitchen. I don't allow paper plates or napkins in it, but coffee filters are fine. Bringing this and taking it is my personal contribution to the kitchen. I think it really helps to keep everyones garbage bags from smelling and being overly yucky upon departure.
In dust we trust.

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Captain Goddammit
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Camp Name: First Camp
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:43 pm

I don't understand why anyone does walk-in. Neither does the 99.9% of burners. It's a pain in the ass, it's a long god damn way to anything, you haven't got your vehicle to use to lock stuff or keep an eye on... all so you can be way out by yourself. Well hell if that's what you want, why come to Burning Man in the first place?! Come out to Black Rock Desert some other time if you want solitude and quiet. WTF.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

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motskyroonmatick
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Camp Name: B.R.C. Welding&Repair
Location: Aurora Oregon

Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by motskyroonmatick » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:17 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:I don't understand why anyone does walk-in. Neither does the 99.9% of burners. It's a pain in the ass, it's a long god damn way to anything, you haven't got your vehicle to use to lock stuff or keep an eye on... all so you can be way out by yourself. Well hell if that's what you want, why come to Burning Man in the first place?! Come out to Black Rock Desert some other time if you want solitude and quiet. WTF.
Outliers on the bell curve. Statistically probable.
Black Rock City Welding & Repair. The Night Time Warming Station. iGNiTE! Bar.

Card Carrying Member BRCCP.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-

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ygmir
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Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Re: Open camping - planning for 2016

Post by ygmir » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:17 am

motskyroonmatick wrote:
Captain Goddammit wrote:I don't understand why anyone does walk-in. Neither does the 99.9% of burners. It's a pain in the ass, it's a long god damn way to anything, you haven't got your vehicle to use to lock stuff or keep an eye on... all so you can be way out by yourself. Well hell if that's what you want, why come to Burning Man in the first place?! Come out to Black Rock Desert some other time if you want solitude and quiet. WTF.
Outliers on the bell curve. Statistically probable.
I had a wonderful night out there once.............
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

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