Shade structure idea...

[majapi]

Since this year will be my first burn, I've been working on some different shade structures. Initially we were going to do a large monkey hut covering tents (thanks to designs I've seen on/through eplaya), but looks as though we now have access to a used school bus. Obviously that provides us with a nice steady "wall" to use to our advantage.
I'd appreciate some thoughts/opinions on a shade structure I've come up with that allows us to use that bus as a wind block as well as a nice, steady wall (hopefully I'm not opening myself up ridicule for being a newbie )

Shade Structure 02.jpg

Hopefully it will make sense, and I appreciate any constructive (pardon the pun) thoughts and/or opinions.
Thanks much and so looking forward to my new adventure!

[Popeye]

Unless you are building a deck on top of the bus you will want to extend your shade over bus with at least a one foot gap.
Use bungie balls instead of carabiniers. Cheaper and better.
You don't need the a rigid pipe along the bottom of the wall. Rebar pounded into the ground provides a rigid base and eliminates some fittings as a failure point.
You might want to think about using either fence post or EMT instead of PVC. The structure you are building relies on strength rather than flexibility.

Good luck and have fun.

[Roundabout]

If I were doing that, I would use 1" EMT, not PVC. I question whether the PVC can handle the structural stress of the very taught guy lines required to hold the structure away from the bus and to hold it tightly enough to avoid sags that would otherwise get caught in the wind.

[EGAZ]

Not having experienced the Playa wind speeds, but have experienced slower wind speeds at the dunes. (40mph) I would build a roof frame and change the angle iron to 1" EMT. This gives some rigidity for the outer wall at the top and allow tying down the roof tarp to the two cross & end rails going from the buss to outer wall to reduce 'Billowing" (SP?)

Agree with others, 1" EMT and flea market fittings, loose the ground rail. Keep the rebar/lag bolts to slide the vertical pipes onto.

I'm doing the same to the side of my trailer, less outer side wall. Just a patio cover..... Mr trailer is a Car Hauler conversion so I am installing mounts to fasten 1" EMT to the trailer roof edge. In essence, a flat sun roof less down posts on the trailer side.

[mudpuppy000]

Large tarps will have the grommets rip out. We tried 20x20 last year and had to cut holes in it because it was getting thrashed. 10x10 is better, or using shade cloth, as it lets some wind through. Also, yes, bungee balls help the grommets survive better as it takes some of the shock out of wind gusts.

You might consider just getting more EMT and making cubes out of it and butting it up against the bus.

[Roundabout]

Also, yes, bungee balls help the grommets survive better as it takes some of the shock out of wind gusts.

If you are getting a lot of wind load, it's true that bungees are better, but better than bungees is to use dynamic rigging (zigzag rigging like a boat sail). Use parachord or some similiar strong and stretchy small diameter rope. This spreads the load at any one place among many grommets at once.

[majapi]

Sounds like EMT is the way to go. I use bungee balls for structures when we camp (though obviously not in the expected gale force winds), so I've got loads already on hand. I guess I was thinking that taught and tight was better than flexible - seems to not be the case here though.
I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions from all. It's great that there is this community that truly seems to want to help each other out. Maybe somebody should do an event that centers around that - maybe in the desert?

[gaminwench]

Look up Elliot's set-up, he has mastered this particular shade structure/bus combo.

[EGAZ]

Related question: What length ball bungies does everyone use?

6", 7/9", 11".....

[mudpuppy000]

Depends on how much the tarp is undersized from your frame. I use 9" because my canvas tarps shrank after I dyed them, and they're generally smaller than 10x10 to begin with.

[BBadger]

Bungees are pretty decent, but I generally like using running rigging such as detailed in this guide. It self balances the load and also means that at the end of the burn I can just cut the cord and pull out all the rigging in one go. Plus, the cord is really cheap.

[EGAZ]

Thanks for the PDF BBadger. I sucked it down. I talked with FIGJAM too and my design is in a constant state of change....

MudPuppy - I still have to cut my EMT, so I can cut it to what ever lengths I need to match the brand new shade material. Didn't know if say, 6" lasts any better then 11" for example. My thought was you don't want them too tight, then again not too loose allowing for more movement.

[maladroit]

You can use inexpensive tarps but probably don't want to go over 10x20 for a flat stretched structure. The key to saving money and also not having your tarp fall apart: get a grommeting tool and add extra grommets to your tarp. You can reinforce the grommet areas with tarp patch kits. It makes a big difference if your tarp is fastened every 9" or 12" rather than every 18" or 24".

[BBadger]

You can also buy nicer tarps like heavy-duty silvered tarps. They're thicker (6oz), UV treated, tightly woven, and opaque. The corners are also reinforced which is nice. What is nice is that the tarp doesn't stretch the way other cheaper tarps do, so your grommets stay in place and the material doesn't stretch apart. The thickness of the tarp makes it very opaque, so that sunlight is blocked, not just attenuated. They'll cost more than whatever Costco sells, but will last a whole lot longer.

[mudpuppy000]

Thanks for the PDF BBadger. I sucked it down. I talked with FIGJAM too and my design is in a constant state of change....

MudPuppy - I still have to cut my EMT, so I can cut it to what ever lengths I need to match the brand new shade material. Didn't know if say, 6" lasts any better then 11" for example. My thought was you don't want them too tight, then again not too loose allowing for more movement.

EMT comes in 10' sticks so most people are lazy and just use that for the horizontal pieces, and either 8' or 10' for the legs.

Wow, that shade cloth is expensive on amazon. Check out ysbw.com for cloth and EMT fittings. But even if they say it's 10' it's probably more like 9.5' after they fold it over at the edges and put grommets in it.

[EGAZ]

Yea, approximately $10 more per size. In the comments a couple people posted they used them at BM '15 and loved them.
I only need 18' long, (trailer length) and are as listed, no 4-6" shorter, nothing is ordered yet though.

BBadger, planning on using silver for the patio in case of rain. The shade tarp is for the PM side of the trailer. Angle from roof to ground like a lean-too.

maladroit: If that was for me, I will have a cross member in the middle with reinforced grommets.

majapi: Sorry for hijacking your thread.....

[Just_Joe]

ElderGeek,
I built a shade structure off my RV last year but did't attach it.
It was a 10'x20'x8' high (barely clearing my RV door)
No photos but here is some video:


It was snugged fairly close to my rig and when windy, lateral movement cause the top fittings to rub against the fiberglass- a couple of towels and some duct tape solved that issue.
The top was a 10x20 cut tarp. Expect "Cut" tarps to be ~ 6" shorter than "Finished" tarps.
On the back, I had a 10x10 "finished" tarp which flapped around at the bottom due to the extra 2'. You can see that there is very little gap between the tarp and EMT on the back- I needed 4" bungees to get it taught, and even then, there was a little more play than I liked.
The 20' length in the front is a (2) 10x7 mesh tarps. Notice that it's attached to a piece of conduit at the bottom. Even though it cost more (3ea $8 fittings and an 2 sticks of EMT), I was pleased with how it performed.
The whole thing is tied to the ground with 3/8" lags and chain links through the foot pieces. I used 5/8" mule taper for the guys in X formations. None extended out from the structure.
Most 10x20 tarps will require 9" bungees.

FWIW, whenever possible, I like the door on my RV door to face the street (just like my home) with the wind at my back. This means I want to park somewhere between 4:00 and 7:00. In this orientation, I would have (2) 10x7 mesh tarps on the sides, with the 20' long front open to the street.

[EGAZ]

I like the door on my RV door to face the street (just like my home) with the wind at my back. This means I want to park somewhere between 4:00 and 7:00. Will depend on how spots are available when I arrive I guess.

My thoughts exactly. I have not decided on 'walls' yet. I don't see me having more than an anchored table or two and a mat. Chairs wil be stashed when gone. That and I'm planning on roaming more than hangin' at the rig. But as they say, 'don't make plans 'cause they will change'. Waiting to see how the budget goes this year. Shade equipment, extra water tank, Trike, couple of costumes, & other required items start to add up. Oh, And I'm getting a bigger, better, 'new to me' truck. My existing truck will not make it up the hill from AZ. haha....

I had to look up 'Mule Taper'. haven't heard the term. We used it for pulling large cable or large bundles of small cable into large conduit. Called it 'flat pull rope'. I have a coil of it somewhere. I also have many, many ratchet straps too. I do like the crisscross anchoring.

[Jackass]

Waiting to see how the budget goes this year. Shade equipment, extra water tank, Trike, couple of costumes, & other required items start to add up.

Just wait until the month leading up to, and during your travels. That's when you'll experience true hemorrhaging.
At least that's when I feel it the most...$$$

[EGAZ]

True......

[Captain Goddammit]

I don't understand why you need to be between 4 and 7 in order to park with your door to the street and wind at your back.
There are radial streets and the circular streets and two opposite sides to each.

[Just_Joe]

I don't understand why you need to be between 4 and 7 in order to park with your door to the street and wind at your back.
There are radial streets and the circular streets and two opposite sides to each.

I guess if you locate on a spoke/radial avenue on either the 10 or 2 o'clock sides, you can face NE, with your back to prevailing winds.
I've only camped between 4ish and 7ish and have come in early the last six years, but my experience is that the street corners (radials) get filled in first, which leaves most open camping on the circular streets.
If you camp on a street, the closer to 10 or 2 you get, the more wind you'll have to your side vs back.

[majapi]

@BBadger - I like the idea of the running rigging - appreciate that info. Seems to make sense that it would allow for "secure movement" in the wind. I'll be camping at a music festival at the beginning of June and I just might make a sample sun shade using bungees on one side and running rigging on the other side. Just to see which seems more effective - well, that and it gives me an excuse to goof of in the backyard

Speaking of - is there a general consensus on which is better, sun shade material or heavy duty tarps? I understand that the sun shade should allow more air flow (thereby reducing the stress from the wind) whereas a heavy duty tarp would be better off for the potential for wet weather. I would hate to get all the way out there and have the grommets ripped out on day two. Perhaps it's just a personal preference of seasoned burners? Thanks as always!

[majapi]

Ah! One other thing regarding these shade structures - I read everywhere about the best way to secure the guy lines. Rebar or long lag screws driven into the playa? I'm obviously having a hard time trying to wrap my brain around how hard this surface actually is. You need a drill to drive these lag screws in? A sledge to drive the rebar in (okay, I understand that one). Is there truly a better one or is it again a personal preference? And more importantly, how the heck do you get them out? Sounds like if 70 mile-an-hour wind won't pull them out, it's going to take more than your bare hands.
What about a stake puller? Or maybe that's overkill?

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Sorry for all the questions. I know I'm overthinking everything...

[Roundabout]

With lag screws, you drill them in, you drill them out. Easy peezy. Use a cordless impact driver.

I prefer heavy duty silver tarps. Especially with your design, because you will not have to worry about rain accumulating on the top. It's the only way to get true shade. And by using the dynamic rigging you are talking about, your grommets will hold up.

[Papa Bear]

If you have power, it's really hard to beat lag screws. They hold well, and in my case, I'm willing to use a lot more of them than I'd ever pound stakes because they're so easy. I use a Harbor Freight corded impact wrench (you can find them on sale for around $40), connected to one of our camp Honda EU2000 generators.

I've used rebar, T-stakes, and steel concrete stakes in the past as well. Of those three, and assuming lag screws aren't an option, I lean toward the concrete stakes.

For stake removal, a pair of vice grips used to twist the stakes out works well. A stake puller works, but you'll need a board or something to give it a firm surface. The stake puller is overkill if you're only doing a handful, but if you have a camp with dozens of stakes (or are using T-stakes) it can be worth it.

[BBadger]

Speaking of - is there a general consensus on which is better, sun shade material or heavy duty tarps? I understand that the sun shade should allow more air flow (thereby reducing the stress from the wind) whereas a heavy duty tarp would be better off for the potential for wet weather. I would hate to get all the way out there and have the grommets ripped out on day two. Perhaps it's just a personal preference of seasoned burners? Thanks as always!

I tend to stick with silvered tarps (I buy heavy duty Harpster tarps) because they're sun blocking and reflect quite a bit away because of the silvering. Unless you buy better sun shade, it is often going to be that black stuff that just absorbs heat and then radiates it back out again. Something like Aluminet is probably the best of both worlds, but it's a bit more costly.

Ah! One other thing regarding these shade structures - I read everywhere about the best way to secure the guy lines. Rebar or long lag screws driven into the playa? I'm obviously having a hard time trying to wrap my brain around how hard this surface actually is. You need a drill to drive these lag screws in? A sledge to drive the rebar in (okay, I understand that one). Is there truly a better one or is it again a personal preference? And more importantly, how the heck do you get them out? Sounds like if 70 mile-an-hour wind won't pull them out, it's going to take more than your bare hands.

The playa is relatively soft for the first 6", but then gets harder below. In the past, I've pounded in ~18" long, 5/8" rebar for Monkey Huts and stuff, which took a bit of time using sledge hammers. For pulling them out I used locking-pliers as well as other large pliers to twist and then lift; I'm sure a stake puller would work great. We use a stake puller for some of the 36" super-duty stakes we use to secure down our parachute shade.

Nowadays I'm fully in the lag-bolt camp. They are just SO nice to use. I use 18" lag bolts I got on Amazon as a box of 50pcs. To drill them in I use a portable impact driver and just charge it back up as needed. Once you go with lag bolts you never go back.

On my lag bolts I added some 3/8" inner-diameter washers below the head, and then a pair of chain links below that so I can attach attach rope (or in my case mule tape). The washer gives a nice surface for the socket to rest against and also prevents the chain link from pushing against the lag bolt head directly. The feet of Costco carports have holes that fit the lag bolt perfectly. I just drill down all 8x of the feet to the playa and then run some internal guy lines from the chain links to secure things even more.

Another nice thing is that the lag bolts are flush with the surface so there are no stakes sticking out to impale passer-bys.

[krly]

Re: bungees or "running rigging" I was wondering if it wouldn't be good (better ?) to use both. Run the line thru the grommets and then just use bungees anywhere along the line and the emt....(?)
krly

[mudpuppy000]

I'm not sure the dynamic rigging would help much if you have a large tarp. We had 20x20's on a flat roof and it ripped the grommets out on the leading edge. With 4 10x10's you have twice as many grommets holding the tarps down and vent holes in the center of it from the gaps between the tarps.

I bet there's a big difference between a flat roof and what you're trying to do though, so might work better (or worse) if it's stretched over a frame. Monkey huts seem to work ok with 10x20 tarps or whatever they use.

[BBadger]

Bungees are probably better for Monkey Huts because they'll keep the tarp in place on the PVC. I like running rigging on carports and other rigid structures though.