Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

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sparr
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Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:42 am

I paid dues to a camp for Burning Man (and another camp at another Burner-community-adjacent event) and may decide I'd rather camp elsewhere. Is there any common community etiquette for this situation?
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Jackass » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:48 am

Specific to you: All camp dues are non-refundable, please try again
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:04 am

im sorry, but you cannot take a blow job back.

deal with it.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby TT120 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:21 am

Most camp dues are non-refundable. The reason is because the money is probably already spent.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Skuzzy61 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:29 am

I see camp dues as just a camp support mechanism. We have sent money to several camps to provide support, for several reasons. Of course, that is just how we roll.

I think it unreasonable to ask for a refund, regardless of the situation.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby misfit » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:24 pm

Sparr, have you talked with the camps in question.?. that would probably be an intelligent first step. :shock:
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Bless » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:29 pm

Sparr, why is it that you decided to camp elsewhere?
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:49 pm

Bless wrote:Sparr, why is it that you decided to camp elsewhere?

The camps in question haven't done anything [visible to me] in the months since I signed up. No projects, no planning, no budgeting, little communication. Other camps have approached me about joining them and doing things.

Yes, I know, *I* can take the initiative and do things, and I do, but I'm just one person and the reason I join a camp is to be part of things bigger than I can do alone.

(the non-BM event is in a few weeks)
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby BBadger » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:14 pm

I wouldn't overthink it. Just be up-front and tell them that your plans have changed, that you're going to camp elsewhere, and you'd like/need the money back. Be nice about it and they'll probably oblige since the event hasn't started. The worst they can do is say no if they've already invested the money in the camp, but they'll probably work something out.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:26 pm

I'm moving this over to theme camps & villages, since that's a better fit for a question about dues.

As a rule, I personally would consider camp dues and fees to be non-refundable unless there's some kind of posted policy or you make some kind of agreement with the organizers. It depends on the people and the situation involved. It also has less to do with anyone wanting to steal money, and more to do with the camp probably having spent that money on materials, supplies, and other costs based on your good faith commitment and payment. Even if they may not have appeared to do anything or been unresponsive, it's possible that funds may have gone to help cover storage costs, rental bookings, or other things you're not seeing. Let the camp leader know that you're planning on heading in a different direction, and see how that conversation goes. Good luck.

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:45 pm

I've been hesitant to chime in on this, but I agree with what Trillo said, and many of the others. At Barbie Death Village we put together a budget in January, figure out how many people we need in the Village to make that a reality, and try to spend down to dollar one everything we collect. So many expenses regular campmates have no idea of (in our camp, as an example: 2000 square feet of canvas to cover the main camp's ground, piano tuning--including repairing of broken piano wires--, all the wine given out at the Naked Bike Ride & Pub Crawl, propane for the fire cannons on the art vehicles, insurance/repair/maintenance on said vehicles, rental of box truck and storage space, etc. etc. etc.) that to expect a refund is putting a wedge between those who do the work and those who benefit from their largess. I appreciate the fact that many burners are not wealthy, and I have been accused more than once for not "feeling their pain" because I happen to be very comfortable, but this isn't about that. It's that we work for all of you and unfortunately this isn't Burger King: You don't get it your way, you get it the camp's way. Sorry Sparr for not being supportive, but had you ditched BDC&WB we would have said, "Have fun elsewhere. The piano tuning is most appreciative."

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:07 am

Dr. Pyro wrote:At Barbie Death Village we put together a budget in January, figure out how many people we need in the Village to make that a reality, and try to spend down to dollar one everything we collect. So many expenses regular campmates have no idea of

Are the "regular campmates" just sitting on their hands the whole year? Barbie Death Village doesn't seem like a plug and play camp, from what I can see on the BDC&WB website.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby maladroit » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:37 am

The reddit thread asking the same question wasn't controversial enough, eh?

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby smiffman » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:42 am

400 dollar camp fees..........Yikes.

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Dr. Pyro » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:49 am

sparr wrote:
Dr. Pyro wrote:At Barbie Death Village we put together a budget in January, figure out how many people we need in the Village to make that a reality, and try to spend down to dollar one everything we collect. So many expenses regular campmates have no idea of

Are the "regular campmates" just sitting on their hands the whole year? Barbie Death Village doesn't seem like a plug and play camp, from what I can see on the BDC&WB website.

We absolutely are not a plug and play camp. Quite the contrary. Our "problem" is that as we've grown, now something like 80% of our campmates come from somewhere other than Northern California (Sacramento/Placer/El Dorado Counties) with 22% of them, according to last year's census, coming in from outside of the USA! So as much as they might want to help, it's just not possible given the geographic limitations. We're trying to recruit more from around here but looking at who has joined our Village since April we've gotten 16 foreigners (1 England, 6 Dutch, 9 Aussies) and 18 Americans of whom only three are local. This compounds the problem. So because of that we cannot realistically refund dues since the few from around here do most of the heavy lifting. I hope that makes sense.

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:]Our "problem" is that as we've grown, now something like 80% of our campmates come from somewhere other than Northern California (Sacramento/Placer/El Dorado Counties) with 22% of them, according to last year's census, coming in from outside of the USA! So as much as they might want to help, it's just not possible given the geographic limitations.

OK, sure, the people who can't help can't help. Are you at least telling those people that anything is going on? That *something* has been planned / purchased? Assuring them there's actually a camp to show up to?

And the people who do live near Sacramento, are they doing... something? Anything? Building furniture, making playlists, whatever?
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby AntiM » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:19 pm

Really organized camps usually have a monthly newsletter. Others require a leap of faith. Our (no dues) village uses a yahoo group with random announcements.
http://burningman.org/timeline/

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Bless » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:20 pm

Making playlists!
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:59 am

AntiM wrote:Really organized camps usually have a monthly newsletter. Others require a leap of faith. Our (no dues) village uses a yahoo group with random announcements.

Announcements are good. My preference is a mailing list or group somewhere that members/organizers are discussing what they are doing/planning.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby asr9754 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:35 am

Maybe that could be your contribution: Organizing camp announcements and publishing updates. Running a Facebook page. Email -liaison between the main camp builders and the rest of the members. That stuff is not easy, it takes time and energy to run a website and wrangle volunteers and manage outreach. Instead of just asking for things and expecting things to meet your needs, you could go about making the changes you want to see. Whenever one of my camp mates says "Are we doing XYZ?" or "Are we going to have XYZ?"..... I say "Sure! Let's do it! Go ahead and get started!" Many of these XYZs never get done, but the point is this, if you want something, then make it happen. Don't just complain when someone else doesn't do it for you, or doesn't do it to your liking.

It seems like this is an opportunity for reflection and hindsight. You had some desires and expectations that were not being met and you're thinking about changing your mind. But your desires/expectations were not clearly laid out between you and the camp beforehand. That's no one's fault--sounds like you and the camp had different expectations and didn't discuss them up front. No big deal, shit happens. Leave the camp and sacrifice your dues, and chalk it up to Tuition in the School of Life. Or stay with the camp and make the best of it and try not to complain too much because you got yourself into this situation. Next time around you'll be prepared to have a detailed discussion with the camp and see if you're a good match for each other. Look forward instead of backward.

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Token » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:39 am

I'm thinking you talk to them, explain the situation.

Then show up if they cannot/will not refund. Camp with them.

Be yourself.

My guess is in a couple hours you will get a 200% refund to go to your alternate camping plans.

You could build a business model with this.

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:32 pm

asr9754 wrote:But your desires/expectations were not clearly laid out between you and the camp beforehand. That's no one's fault--sounds like you and the camp had different expectations and didn't discuss them up front. No big deal, shit happens.

Not sure where you're getting this from. My expectation, to be involved with making/doing including large and small projects, camp infrastructure as well as "art", was very clearly laid out beforehand.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby maladroit » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:44 pm

Token wrote:I'm thinking you talk to them, explain the situation.

Then show up if they cannot/will not refund. Camp with them.

Be yourself.

My guess is in a couple hours you will get a 200% refund to go to your alternate camping plans.

You could build a business model with this.


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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Jackass » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:47 pm

Give it up Sparr, your geek-powers are useless here.
Your useful LOL information act isn't cutting it.
The questions are completely rhetorical.
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Sham » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:39 pm

This reminds me of my sister. She has an issue with her employer and calls me to ask me what she should say to him. "What if he says this, then what do I say?"
I try being patient with her, but just want her to have the conversation and not fret over it.

Breath Sparr, BREATH........

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby sparr » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:09 pm

Following up here: I have reached the conclusion that the ideal approach is to simply budget twice as much for camp dues, pay dues with two camps, then over the spring and summer contribute effort to whichever camp is doing/making things and stick with them, eating the cost of the "donation" to the other camp.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby lucky420 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:40 pm

If it's affordable that's a nice way to go about it
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby VultureChow » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:25 pm

As long as they're not counting on you for onplaya shifts...
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:38 pm

This is all so fucked up. How about you camp with your friends, not with whatever business... er, uh, "camp" provides you with the most activities for the money you pay them?

This is what's wrong with modern BRC.
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Re: Etiquette for un-joining a camp with dues?

Postby EGAZ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:30 pm

One of the reasons I solo camp.... :mrgreen:
2nd time better than the first. And the first was pretty Freakin' Great!
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