RV generators

[bm_cricket]

What do you look for in a Burning Man RV? I'm asking this under "power and illumination" because most of my questions relate to power. I'm more of an electrical guy.

Some things that I came up with so far:
Can it run from an external generator? (ie, my Honda EU3000is)
Can the RV generator power anything off-board?
What is the model number of the built-in generator?
If it is a 220v generator, has it been wired so I can run 220v from or to the RV as I desire?
What is the BTU cooling capacity of the AC?
Volume of fresh water, gray water, and black water holding tanks?
Does it have a trailer hitch and what is the rated towing capacity?
What are your special "I hate Burner" charges?
Then the obvious stuff like daily/weekly rental cost, mileage charges...etc.

Peace. Love. Happyness. You know the drill.

[Captain Goddammit]

Some of those aren't really variables.
All RVs can run from external power, you just plug the "shore power" cord into the generator.
All RVs with generators can power other things.
Virtually no rental RVs have 220VAC generators or wiring.
There MAY be exceptions but most rental companies don't want you towing anything with their rigs.
The model number doesn't really matter. In all likelihood it's an Onan of a few thousand watts.

[bm_cricket]

Some of those aren't really variables.
All RVs can run from external power, you just plug the "shore power" cord into the generator.
All RVs with generators can power other things.
Virtually no rental RVs have 220VAC generators or wiring.
There MAY be exceptions but most rental companies don't want you towing anything with their rigs.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Is it also safe to assume that the power requirements for an RV should be equal to the power I can supply by shore power? So if the generator on the thing expects 50A for running the AC and the plasma tv and the electric heated toilet seats then I should be capable of plugging in a 50A shore power? Does it usually go the other way? If I have a 50A generator then I should be capable of plugging it into 50A off-board devices?

As for the 220v thing, great to know. If I were building one I would sure put a 220v generator into it and run it into a split back-plate breaker box. Why run all your AC and plasma screen(s) on the same circuit?... but..oh well... Good to know what's out there. Or at least what I'll probably get when I rent.

[Elliot]

I have no numbers, but commercially built RVs tend to have rather small waste holding tanks. Witness the many "pump-out needed" signs on RVs in BRC. I have also dismantled two big camping trailers, and the tanks were only the depth of the thickness of the floor/frame-rails.

[Captain Goddammit]

Well 50 amp service is 240VAC, it's just that most rental RVS aren't huge rigs and more commonly have 30 amp service.
I'm assuming we're just taking about the typical rental unit.

Elliot's right about the tanks, asking about fresh and waste water capacity is a great idea.

[bm_cricket]

I have no numbers, but commercially built RVs tend to have rather small waste holding tanks. Witness the many "pump-out needed" signs on RVs in BRC. I have also dismantled two big camping trailers, and the tanks were only the depth of the thickness of the floor/frame-rails.

It's always a great day when I get to see your smiling mug!

Do those rental trailers usually have discrete gray water and black water tanks? I'm asking all these questions because I've never had good results calling a sales/rental/marking person and getting a straight answer out of them. "Does your equipment come with chocolate bunnies?" "Why darn-toot'n it comes with chocolate bunnies! And the best in the industry according to independent reviews!"

[bm_cricket]

Well 50 amp service is 240VAC, it's just that most rental RVS aren't huge rigs and more commonly have 30 amp service.

Eh, I work in an industry where 110 appliances can draw 40 amps, 220 appliances can draw 80 and you get really strange math when appliances start using voltages above 220 in the three-phase....

And yes. I'm talking about what I will most likely get if I just make a reservation with Joe-RV company and I don't bend over backwards to get some special RV.

[Captain Goddammit]

Except for really small units, separate grey and black tanks are pretty standard. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.
Often RVs somewhat annoyingly have less waste water capacity than freshwater capacity. Mine, for instance.

And about the 30 amp vs. 50 amp, I'm just talking about RV power.
RVs are either "30 Amp" with a special three conductor 120VAC 30 amp plug that nothing else uses (if I recall it's called an "RV30" plug) or "50 amp" with a special 4 conductor 240VAC plug again not standard to anything else.
You'd think they'd at least standardize with boat 50 amp plugs, but no...

[bm_cricket]

Except for really small units, separate grey and black tanks are pretty standard. Wouldn't hurt to ask though.
Often RVs somewhat annoyingly have less waste water capacity than freshwater capacity. Mine, for instance.

And about the 30 amp vs. 50 amp, I'm just talking about RV power.
RVs are either "30 Amp" with a special three conductor 120VAC 30 amp plug that nothing else uses (if I recall it's called an "RV30" plug) or "50 amp" with a special 4 conductor 240VAC plug again not standard to anything else.
You'd think they'd at least standardize with boat 50 amp plugs, but no...

Good to know that the 50A thing on an RV is also non-standard. I want a CA 50A twist lock like you find on spider boxes but noooo, that's too complicated. (it's 110v/220v and I guess the RV wouldn't use that if it's designed/wired for 110v only)

I'll be very very sure to ask about the waste water capacity.

[Captain Goddammit]

I've come to the conclusion that NO 240VAC plug is compatible with any 240VAC socket!!
The RV ones are different from the twist-lock found on most 12k and under generators, which are different from marine ones, different from dryer or stove or...

[bm_cricket]

I've come to the conclusion that NO 240VAC plug is compatible with any 240VAC socket!!
The RV ones are different from the twist-lock found on most 12k and under generators, which are different from marine ones, different from dryer or stove or...

You and me both, brother. You and me both. Well, I've got some good questions for the RV rental people.

[ranger magnum]

Every RV is different.

Class a rigs generally have larger gensets/black/grey/fresh capabilities

My 31' Bounder has a 7500 watt onan, 100 gallon fuel tank, 100 gallon fresh, 60 gallon grey tank and 40 gallon black

[Elliot]

Electric welders have their own plug also.
I'm afraid it is unrealistic to expect sales/rental clerks to know anything about the equipment. They are getting away with this because most customers don't know enough to ask the questions. This is the burden we bright and informed people bear as the price of being superior.
The answer is to install a 70 gallon sewer tank and a 90 gallon gray tank in an old school bus, but you don't have time. So if you can still find an available rental RV, you should probably plan on minimizing use of the indoor plumbing -- reserving it for night-time use, perhaps.

[bm_cricket]

Every RV is different.

Class a rigs generally have larger gensets/black/grey/fresh capabilities

My 31' Bounder has a 7500 watt onan, 100 gallon fuel tank, 100 gallon fresh, 60 gallon grey tank and 40 gallon black

There is quite a lot of range out there. I'm jealous of your rig!

Electric welders have their own plug also.
I'm afraid it is unrealistic to expect sales/rental clerks to know anything about the equipment. They are getting away with this because most customers don't know enough to ask the questions. This is the burden we bright and informed people bear as the price of being superior.
The answer is to install a 70 gallon sewer tank and a 90 gallon gray tank in an old school bus, but you don't have time. So if you can still find an available rental RV, you should probably plan on minimizing use of the indoor plumbing -- reserving it for night-time use, perhaps.

This isn't for this year... Maybe by next year I'll have an RV just drop from the sky, or better yet I'll get a school bus or something. Something with under-the-floor storage space and doors. Huge luggage capacity, towing capacity, and that requires minimal modification to become my new modus flagrante delicto.

Oh, or better yet, a big old coach liner. Maybe a mid 90s grayhound. Something with a solid engine but that looks like crap. I could put an absolutely enormous generator into one of the storage compartments and run my whole camp! I could wire everything the way I want it! I could ..Oh, Oh! The places I'll go stuff crap into my RV!

[Elliot]

A highway bus is a good idea. There is a ton of information about conversions on the interweb. Such buses have a self-supporting body -- no traditional frame. This opens up some interesting opportunities for under-floor installations of equipment.
I would suggest a bus new enough to have a modern four-stroke diesel engine. The old two-stroke diesels can be troublesome, and they are (luckily?) becoming obsolete.

Our man Tiahaar, right here on ePlaya, is working on his second highway bus now, while still using his first one.

[skippy3k]

Often RVs somewhat annoyingly have less waste water capacity than freshwater capacity. Mine, for instance.

True that. My gray water is half the size of the fresh water. So I have a sealed bucket system where I can dump 5 gallons of gray water then transfer that to the black water tank. It buys us some time if we need it. We never get close with the black water tank since it's used mostly for "middle of the night" pees. (I'm getting old. I have several of those a night.)

And when I say "sealed bucket system", it means i have a bucket that I pour down the toilet. I tried to sound fancy there.

[EspressoDude]

RV generators are usually wired to something like an 'auto change over box' and then power goes to a small breaker panel under a bed or galley (hard to get at backside of the panel). the breaker panel has 15 and 20 amp breakers for outlets and AC. It is next to impossible to get power directly from generator output to power other things (like a 3kw espresso machine).

Some RV's we have rented did have a full rated generator outlet (no auto changeover) and the shore power cord either plugged into this or a 'shore power' /RV park outlet. These are not very popular with rental companies because if the shore power cord is not plugged in the renter calls the RV shop "my genny runs, but I get no power" So simple but not clueless-proof.

[ManitoBURN]

I've come to the conclusion that NO 240VAC plug is compatible with any 240VAC socket!!
The RV ones are different from the twist-lock found on most 12k and under generators, which are different from marine ones, different from dryer or stove or...

From my understanding the 30 amp rv plug is called nema-TT30, meaning travel trailer 30 amps.
But the 50 amp rv plugs are nema-14-50
The same as "stove" plugs, nema-14-50!
I guess this could help when making and adapter or something.

On 30 amp twist locks, the 120 only and 240 only ones are the exact same minus one of the tabs on the prongs is swapped on the two. I cut the extra tab off them so they can be used in both. The reason is that I can keep greater commonality between things and need less individual parts. Yes some times the "wrong" plug is used , just let me explain it.

Have you ever had cone of thoes "convertible" plugs ? The ones that you can switch the prongs around? Here is a list of all the configurations.
15 amp 120 volt
20 amp 120 volt
15 amp 240 volt
20 amp 240 volt
Meaning a plug with only the parts moved around, nothing replaced, can have a rating of either 1800 watts, or 4800 watts.
No I'm not saying a nema-5-15 can handle 4800 watts I'm just saying use some imagination and you can wire all of Milwaukee with zip wire and 40 amp breakers.

[bm_cricket]

.....I cut the extra tab off them so they can be used in both. The reason is that I can keep greater commonality between things and need less individual parts. Yes some times the "wrong" plug is used , just let me explain it......

While I see how this works for you I don't think it's the best thing for everyone. I also don't like the idea of suggesting people should start doing this... Imagine it this way, you plug a 50A load into a 30A plug, and the circuit breaker doesn't pop. What happens? Probably nothing, if the electricians who wired the house/garage/RV park did their jobs really well and went a little over-sized on the AWG wire. If they did what half the electricians I've met did and used the bare minimum wire, or worse, went under size, then you could have an electrical fire on your hands! If you don't get an electrical fire, and instead you manage to draw 50A on wires designed for 30A then you'll get some pretty big voltage drops. Again, it seems to work for you, but needing to replace equipment (AC unit, fridge, etc) because it starts to act funny on 90v or 190v or what ever it gets,.. It isn't really worth it in my book...

I've witnessed enough instances where circuit breakers act weird (don't pop when they should, do pop when they shouldn't) that I don't really trust them. Again, if you can pull it off and you know how your equipment works, then have fun!

[ManitoBURN]

Woah! I NEVER EVER said to overload wire or circuits! NEVER TO THAT! I was just trying to show that what plug is on what can be worked around. I should have made it more obvious to only do it if you know what you are doing ect. Ect.

I was just showing that "proper" can be reworked, with out compromising safety.
DISCLAIMER:
I AM STUPID, IFI KILL MY SELF THAT IS MY PROBLEM.
ONLY USE THE APPROPRIATE WIRE AND CIRCUT BREAKER FOR THE JOB!
ASK SOME ONE LIKE AN ELECTRICIAN WHAT THE HELL TO DO, YOU ARE STUPID TOO!

AND NO, MILWAUKEE CANNOT BE WIRED WITH ONLY ZIP WIRE AND 40 AMP BREAKERS!

[Captain Goddammit]

AND NO, MILWAUKEE CANNOT BE WIRED WITH ONLY ZIP WIRE AND 40 AMP BREAKERS!

Yeah it can... screw Milwaukee! Brown that town down.

[jhman89]

There is a lot to learn from this thread. I just recently bought an 82 ford econoline box truck. The guy I bought it from used it as a toyhauler. I cannot wait to bring it to the playa. Funny, the day I bought it, my friends and I drove it out to a full moon gathering in the desert. XD we named it The Velvet Butter Caravan.

2 problems with it though.
The second gas tank just pours out if u try and fill it....so I don't use that........until I've fixed it or replaced it..
The other thing is that there is an exhaust pipe hooked up to the generator to keep it quiet, since the generator is hard mounted and the exhaust is not, the pipe connecting the generator to the exhaust broke right at the elbow. Some input would be awesome.. should I find a tube and cinch it shut on either end?

[Captain Goddammit]

Well first of all you're crazy to drive out to the desert in a 30 year old vehicle you just bought that day...

The pipe probably broke where it did because of vibration. The pipe either needs some flexible tube near the motor, or it needs flexible mounts (like car exhausts have) or it's always going to break.
If you haven't got a welder, just go to a welding or muffler shop, welding that pipe should be an easy and inexpensive job.

The gas tank would have to be looked at. Either the line isn't connected or it's got a hole in it!
If it has a hole, don't screw around trying to patch it, just replace it. Wrecking yards are full of such vans, it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent tank.

[jhman89]

Well first of all you're crazy to drive out to the desert in a 30 year old vehicle you just bought that day...

The pipe probably broke where it did because of vibration. The pipe either needs some flexible tube near the motor, or it needs flexible mounts (like car exhausts have) or it's always going to break.

The gas tank would have to be looked at. Either the line isn't connected or it's got a hole in it!
If it has a hole, don't screw around trying to patch it, just replace it. Wrecking yards are full of such vans, it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent tank.

It definitely was crazy, but man I gotta say it was definitely worth it. It has a fairly new engine too only about 10000miles on it a lot of good things came out of that trip. And it was a good learning experience.

I was definitely thinking some kind of super duty rubber tubing, thanks for confirming on that, fairly new at this stuff and honestly slightly oblivious.

Thank u for input on the gas tank! Il have to start looking through some scrap yards (after finding the hole or crack of course!) Cool beans, thanks for all the help Captain Goddamnit!!

[Captain Goddammit]

I bought a truck that supposedly had a fresh, 10,000 mile engine... well, NOW it does...

You don't want to use rubber hose for your exhaust pipe, it'll get too hot.
Flexible braided steel joints exist, that's probably the more expensive and difficult way to go.
Mounts that can flex a little for your pipe is the way it's usually done.
You need something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00FFAUOP ... SCJXPT9N2S

[ygmir]

often you can find an aftermarket gas tank, affordable and easier than cruising PAP yards. google your make and model chassis for fuel tanks.

I've also repaired tanks, depending on what's wrong. Often on trucks like that, the fuel line or drain plug, in the bottom, gets knocked off.........