Picking a Generator

[Inappropriate]

Hello all,

My camp PorchTimes is looking into picking up a generator for our camp this year and I wanted to get a little advice from you wonderful people.
So last year we were able to run our camp with 1 honda 2000i putt putt and 1 20amp 120v courtesy line from our neighbors 5000amp generator.
My plan this year is to purchase a 2000i and pick up another 2000i through rentals to give me two 20amp (16amp really) circuits.
So my question is this, I have seen some offers for honda/yamaha 3000 series generators, but my understanding with these generators is that you are still only getting access to 20amp's unless you use the L5-30amp twist lock plug which I can't use to power any standard edison plugs anyway correct?
Our camp power draw comes from LED rope lights, led light ribbons, speakers, carnival lights, a few swamp coolers and the like, so most everything lives in the world of 120v.
I am not looking to plug an RV into my generator so I don't really see the advantage of picking up the 3000 over the 2000...

Thoughts?

[some seeing eye]

You can get a spider box to connect to that 30A 120v twist lock. The spider box may have sub breakers, like 15A which would protect against shorts on the downstream circuits. They can be rented from construction, staging, lighting and event companies. There is nothing wrong with paralleling 2 2000's.

[tamarakay]

Yep, parallel the 2000s quiet and powerful

[Inappropriate]

The 30amp Spider box is an awesome idea! not sure why I didn't think of that.

[Inappropriate]

So if I pick up a parallel connector kit for the 2 2000i's I can get a combined 30amps through a twist lock which I would attach a spider box, giving me a x4 5-20r circuits with a total load capacity of 3200w?
When Paralleled can I still used the gfi 15amp 5-15r outlet on either generator?

Or would it make more sense to go from the 30amp out on a 3000i to a spider box?

[Token]

Yes, yes, up to you.

The 3000i is too heavy for me to lift anymore while I can carry two 2000i quite easily.

With two 2000i units you basically have a spare; i.e. if one generator bites it for some reason, you are not without power.

I don't think either is a bad choice. Arguing over vanilla or chocolate ice cream is a similar debate.

[Captain Goddammit]

You do not get 16 amps from an EU2000.
Their surge rating is 2000 watts but their continuous running power is 1600 watts, about 13 amps.
And that's at sea level. Figure 11 or maybe 12 amps at almost-mile-high BRC.
All generators make a bit less power at altitude because the thinner air reduces the engine's power.

A pair of EU2000s make significantly more power than a single 3000, and are a lot lighter.

You don't need the ridiculously overpriced "parallel kit" to connect them. All you have to do is make a short extension cord with a male plug at each end, and plug an end into each set's 120vac outlets.
If you open it up and look, the "parallel operation ports" are nothing but banana-plug connectors hooked directly to the 120vac outlets.
The only (should be obvious) caution is to never have that cord plugged into a live generator and the other end NOT plugged into the other, because the prongs will be live.

There's no need for spider boxes. Just plug a cord, power strip, whatever into each unit and plug in all your stuff.

Or do what I did. Get an outlet box and install whatever style plugs you want (I have a 30-amp RV style outlet in mine) and buy two 12 gauge power tool replacement cords. Wire both of them together in the box and plug one into each generator.

[Popeye]

The Captain's right. I was going to say:
It looks like the connections between 2000i's in parallel work to load balance as well as synchronize. If they do you could do away with the spider box and just use the built in receptacles. Why connect everything together just so you can split it back up again if, electrically, the load side of the spider box is the same as the outlets?
This schematic shows the parallel connectors tied to the outlets and back to the inverter. https://www.google.com/search?q=honda+2 ... 2Sxb9Os%3D

[GreyCoyote]

Just so you know, you can parallel more than two EU2000's. I have personally seen four work flawlessly.

No, its not "factory supported", but the guy who demonstrated this for me was a factory rep.

[Captain Goddammit]

I've done three. And I've also paired up different size Honda EUs and they all played well together.

[The Rod]

I got on an art car last year and they had 8 (eight. I counted them) EU2000s all lined up in a nest of power cords. Lord knows how many of them were running, or how they had them tied together but there they were.




And chocolate is way better than vanilla.

[Inappropriate]

Holy crap are you guys all awesome! Thank you for all your help. I am absorbing all of this info and I will let you know what I decide to do! Thanks!!!

[Luigi]

I am helping a camp set up their power and they need new generators. After checking out the wattage need, I figured two Honda EU2000i generators would do it. So I log onto eplaya to verify 'playa proven' and find this thread. Great info!

I suggested to them one eu2000i and one eu2000i companion wired in parallel - using the 30 amp output on the companion and feeding a distribution panel where all the 120 volt extension cords terminate. That way when usage is low only one generator needs to run and it doesn't matter which one it is.

I read captains comment about the cord with two male ends to connect two eu2000s together but don't trust the average person to understand the concept of a live male cord end.

Question - to add a third generator how would it be wired? I looked at the parallel "kit" but it is designed for two units.

Thanks, Luigi

[Captain Goddammit]

First of all, you're throwing away $100 on that "Companion" model. It's absolutely no different other than that 30-amp plug.

If you are capable of wiring a distribution panel to separate that 30-amp circuit into multiple smaller feeds, you can just as well handle wiring your own EU connection box.

All you do to connect two, three, or a million EU generators is connect the 120VAC outputs in parallel. That's all the factory connection cables do. The only difference between the "parallel ports" and the regular 120VAC output plugs is the style of the connector. Those banana plugs are 4mm shrouded banana plugs like those used on test leads. You can source up some of you like. It's just a lot easier to use regular home-style 120VAC plugs. The benefit to NOT using the banana plugs is you can't get the polarity wrong when you plug them in, and you don't have to get a screwdriver and hook up a separate ground wire - it's already there in your three-prong household style plug.
The downside is you have a live set of hot plugs if you start up the generator with one end plugged in and the other end unplugged. But no non-moron does that.
These generators should ALWAYS be connected together BEFORE starting either one up. Never start one then connect it to another already running set.

Want to connect three? Buy a plastic outlet box at your local hardware store and whatever style 30-amp outlet you like. I use RV-30 because that's what campers use.
You can buy 12-gauge power tool replacement cords that are just the right size and already have the three-prong plug molded into the end.
Wire all the whites together, all the blacks together, and all the green (ground) together, all to the appropriate terminal on your 30-amp outlet, mount it in your box, put a nice cover plate on, and if you want to get fancy you can even include some regular 20-amp home style outlets in your box. They also sell nice grommets for where your cords run through the side of the box.
You don't really need a circuit beaker because all the feeds coming from the generators are already on breakers. You can add 'em if you really want to.

[Luigi]

Thanks Captain. I am a fan of the Honda generators and have never paralleled them but it all makes sense.

[Skuzzy61]

The only issue I have with connecting AC power in parallel is sine wave and phase synchronization. If it gets too far out of sync then bad things could happen to anything connected.

[Captain Goddammit]

EUs are auto-syncing. They don't get out of sync.

[Luigi]

Another question about de-rating the wattage output for elevation. The Generac people say 3.5% less power output for every 1000 feet above sea level and 1% for every 10 degrees above 60F. So at 4000 feet and 90 degrees you lose about 17% power. Thats significant if true. Any experience?

BTW I use a 12V battery in a box with a small 50W solar panel/controller, fig jam swamp cooler. Never brought a generator. The camp I am helping with has a need of about 4000 watts peak.

[Skuzzy61]

EUs are auto-syncing. They don't get out of sync.

I understand if there are two of them connected using the special cable, they will sync. It looks like Honda supplies a signal on the cable so the PLL circuits can sync, but they do not appear to supply that signal over the actual 120V plug.

I'd have to crank out the oscilloscope and check the output from the 120V. They could be providing it and simply not documenting it.

I think it fair to note not all generators may do this so great care should be taken when connecting them in parallel (or series for that matter).

[some seeing eye]

but they do not appear to supply that signal over the actual 120V plug

Actually the Hondas do synchronize over the AC load plug. Ulisse posted the Honda schematic. The sync terminals for the special cable are directly connected to the load outlet.

The advantage of the sync cable is that if the load breaker trips, the generators will simply stay in sync and you can reset the breaker.

Synchronous inverters, which sync off their load terminals, are common, every solar inverter is a synchronous inverter. Sometimes synchronous inverters are called grid-tied inverters. What's very cool about the Hondas is that they are load following.

[Skuzzy61]

Ahhh....thank you.

[Elliot]

... ...
The advantage of the sync cable is that if the load breaker trips, the generators will simply stay in sync and you can reset the breaker.
... ....

Now, that seems like a valuable feature. Without that, do you mean... is it possible to screw things up after tripping the overload? I mean... by just pushing the breaker instead of restarting?

[Captain Goddammit]

It's a useless "advantage".
When an EU2000 overloads you reset it by shutting it down. In over a dozen years I've never tripped a breaker.
I doubt you'd ever trip a breaker without putting the generator in "overload" anyway.

[Elliot]

Ah, yes. Overload "kick out" (engine keeps running but generator shuts off) is separate from the circuit protection breaker. My EU1000 does not even have the breaker. My EU3000 as two.
Yeah, I have never tripped a breaker on the 3000. But I sure have had it kick out from too many refrigerators, and too big an A/C. Resetting the overload kick-out is done by shutting the engine off, yes.

But let's say I (inadvertently!) screw a lag thru an extension cord and instantly connect the white and black. Then the breaker would trip. Does the engine keep running? If so, does the generator remain active, but disconnected from the World? Is this when I might foul up by pushing the breaker (after removing the damaged cord)?

I'm just always looking for what I could conceivably screw up.

[maladroit]

I have a very small A/C that I plan on experimentally bringing this year. I also have a ~2000W generator. When in eco mode, the A/C compressor turn-on will cause the inverter to trip, but when the generator is not in eco mode it starts up the A/C just fine.

This makes me think that heavy-load devices should have a "warn" output and the generator should have an "eco off" input. I may try to build something like this...detect when the A/C wants to turn on the compressor, but intercept that signal and start a 3-second delay. During that delay, send a signal to the generator to preemptively go off eco mode. Then enable the compressor relay.

[some seeing eye]

geek on/

This makes me think that heavy-load devices should have a "warn" output and the generator should have an "eco off" input. I may try to build something like this...detect when the A/C wants to turn on the compressor, but intercept that signal and start a 3-second delay. During that delay, send a signal to the generator to preemptively go off eco mode. Then enable the compressor relay.

Cool project! The average person, even BM generator geek, is not aware of load following. There is research and trials for "load sequencing" for the big grid for better load following. Our generators on playa are nanogrids, but the concept could come to homes. I don't know if is easily Googleable, but "black start" and air conditioners are a known problem.

/geek off

Big AC = big geni.

[maladroit]

I want to point out that the generator also runs the A/C compressor just fine in eco (quiet) mode, the startup is the killer. Maybe I could permanently fix this by adding some beefy capacitors to the inverter circuit? At some point in the generation process, there is DC.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QST%20Bi ... chmidt.pdf

[GreyCoyote]

The inverter board is potted. The input is three-phase (delta) AC, with the freq dependent on RPM. The only place there is DC in the system is after the bridge rectifiers and before the inverter section, and this is nearly 600 volts at full steam.

Dont go there. Seriously... Dont.

The notion of holding-off a large load until the genny can come out of eco mode has been done, and it works. I did exactly this for the 2015 burn. But it doesnt buy as much as you would expect. Those crafty folks at Honda designed-in some extra umph right from the factory, and its amazing how much reserve torque that little weed-wacker has. Yes, my box worked. No, it wasnt spectacular.

Final point: there is discussion about derating for altitude. This is proper, but it is not applicable across the board in REAL WORLD cases. Here is the essential point: if you have a 5 hp (sea level rating) motor driving a gen head that needs 5 hp to make rated output, then you must derate for density altitude. However, if you have an over-rated prime moved (say, 10 hp) driving that same head, then no derating is needed at most altitude. Why? Because the engine has excess power to begin with. It isnt until you start asking the prime moved to produce more power than the density altitude allows that you need to derate.

In the case of the Honda EU2000, the derating only starts, as a practical matter, at about 2500 feet. The motor was designed with excess power to partially offset any derating.

[Token]

Yamaha EF3000iSEB

Been available for a while. It has a 10-second boost circuit from the built in battery to allow engine spin-up.

[maladroit]

Yeah, mine is a Champion inverter generator so it's likely to be a bit worse at having extra oomph or any nice-to-have features in general. It has worked great aside from the A/C startup (which is a torture test for most small generators anyway).

Assuming I'd need 1200 watts for 0.25 seconds, I'd need a 600 joule capacitor bank anyway...pretty impressive, and 0.03F at a few hundred volts will cost me several hundred dollars. Maybe the actual requirements are a lot less (I haven't measured the load spike) but still seems the wrong approach. Turning off eco mode before the compressor kicks in WILL work, it just remains to be seen whether I have enough spare time to try it