Internet on the Playa

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:23 pm

don't fuckin tell me how to get the most out of burning man.

word

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:35 pm

> don't fuckin tell me how to get the most out of burning man.

Agreed. But who did?

I said I thought it was a lot of work to address a small (perceived)
problem.

There are a lot of things I can see that would be of greater community
benefit than something that allows you to keep in touch with the folks
at home.

If you want to take on the monetary and organizational and technical
challenge to replicate the off-playa communcations network that dozens
of companies worldwide lose money at, then go for it. But this thread
asked for opinions. I gave one.

Last Real Burner · Post by **Last Real Burner** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:23 am

"Your opinion is indirectly connected to your asshole. "
personally,
mr smith

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:36 am

Last I checked, it was directly connected to my asshole. As was my mouth.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:37 am

Playanet (http://www.playanet.org/) has never been intended for Internet connects, only communication on the playa.

What will be on PlayaNet?
BRC map
BRC Gazette
A messaging service
Find a camp
Planet Wally
etc.
....
There will be NO internet connectivity via PlayaNet,
we feel that during the event, the internet can survive
without us.

Other comm/info projects:
http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/ ... vices.html

Until recently, anything involving Internet, cell, or other connections off the playa was a no brainer -- nobody wanted to deal with it, at least publicly. There's still no cell, and anyone offering phone service has to be out of their minds, but various options seems to be appearing.

As far as Burning Man goes, you're expected to obey the law, and not interfere in anyone else's immediate experience. IMO, reinventing the wheel or pleading for something of questionable legality re: the FCC constitutes interfering in everybody's immediate experience

If you have in mind a new project that overlaps what people working with Playa Info (see pages above) are already doing, the wise and considerate thing to do would be to contact them. Or, maybe you can help add to the existing mix. Contact people are listed on these pages and the Oregon people's site, and look at the "Participate" (aka Volunteer) sections on the main Burning Man site.

As you might see from posts above, there's some amount of bias against outside connects. The main Burning Man web site even used to say that "cell" phones were prohibited, despite that I've seen satellite phones used since '97. Heck, I even emailed in from off playa a couple of years ago... it was for something really important... really...

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:42 am

> Heck, I even emailed in from off playa a couple of years ago... it was
> for something really important... really...

In 2001, I gave some Japanese gentleman who spoke no English at
Oregon Country Fair a couple of beers to allow me to email my friends to
bring more water because we were perilously low on Wednesday (it was
hot, and there was a lot of, um, showering). Had there been no internet
connection, we would have taken the bus to Empire and bought more
water.

I'm not implying that outside connections are useless. Only that they are
superfluous.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:51 am

I try to revisit my own value judgments occasionally.

But I feel the same way I ever did about people walking and talking -- anything that pisses off the hippies is okay with me.

And throwing cell phones in the Burn -- what's up with that? You could poison an endangered playa toad that way, buddy.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:17 am

"Heck, I even emailed in from off playa a couple of years ago... it was for something really important... really..."

So I guess that you can have important communication to the playa, but others are not supposed to?

As far as the legality and FCC rules. Sir, I am VERY familiar with them. As far as amateur radio, I am licensed myself (though I am not active in it at all) and it is perfectly legal for me to use it. For micro radio stations, the FCC has rules that allow ANYONE to setup a microbroadcast radio station without a license as long as it follows certain rules pertaining to power, antenna size and cross station interference. What I proposed was 100% legal.

Speaking of BM legality, boy, if setting up a place to get messages interferes with everyones experience then that tells me that everything people said about free self-expression is for shit. Hmmm, maybe flying kites over BRC will interfere with my experience. Or maybe the selling of ice will interfere with my experience. Shit, you would have 30k people pissed off at 30k people.

Hmmmm, Do as I say, not as I do I guess.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:43 am

Actually, the OP did not ask for opinions, it asked for facts. As always P, your offerings of opinions, facts, and otherwise are a delight. There were, however, some posts that got into the deadlier ideological zone of 'it's not in the spirit of burning man ,dood, to like, have contact with those who could not make it'. I found being able to send photos of my camp CEE and I arguing about how many screws to put into a post back to my wife to be a value add to my BM experience.

Also, I think I was pissy yesterday.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:50 am

"As far as the legality and FCC rules. Sir, I am VERY familiar with them...."

Read enough of that condescending bullshit.

<PLONK!>

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:08 pm

Nothing condescending about it. When someone tries to pull rank, sometimes you have to simply let them know where you are coming from.

Are you trying to say that if I have knowledge about something, and somebody makes a remark that needs correcting that I should just keep my fucking mouth shut? I think not! To do that would be a dis-service to both parties.

Also, take note: You are the one who made the word "Sir" bold, not me. I could take a shit load of your posts and use them out of context with the same undertone. But I like to argue about the content of a post, not waste time mindlessly criticizing semantics.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:13 pm

>> Heck, I even emailed in from off playa a couple of years ago...
>> it was for something really important... really...
> So I guess that you can have important communication to the
> playa, but others are not supposed to?

I work on the site crew for a month, I know a few people (in that particular instance, an uber-geek in the camp next to mine), and I have a tight, sexy ass and a winning smirk.

Ya'll are free to read into what I wrote whatever you want -- and please don't assume that I write only for your glorious edification, I write for whatever uncircumscribed newbies happen to be browsing this miserable excuse of a free bbs full of dedicated volunteers offering free, unfettered information and advice.

Assuming, being as you're posting in the newbie topic area, that you don't know fuck-all about the territory -- Burning Man attracts quite a menagerie of people, and you're one of them.

Every year, people ask if pay phones, cell service, Internet whatever, radio whatever, FedEx, water deliveries, garbage cans, day care service, bedpans, and/or electrical hookups are part of the deal. The easy answer would be no. You got quite a bit more than that, I think.

Some newbies do a good job of initial browsing and searching through the main web site, so when they enter the newbie area on the eplaya ready to be strip-searched and post "I searched through the main web site and found [this and that] but not [this and that], and I contacted [[email protected]] but they told me to ask on the eplaya, so can anybody tell me [this and that]" we're more inclined to be gentle on them. YMMV, of course.

Playanet, the project whose web site I quoted from above, has a wireless system throughout the camp but AFAIK refuses to enable outside Internet connects. That's their choice, and you can take it up with them. Their intended purpose is to help serve as part of a sort of intranet for contact info as well as art projects that involve remote programming input, not for teenagers to call mommy.

As I and others posted, there are other projects going on, which have their own unique personalities, histories, and context wrt the event. As I tried to imply, those which overlap what Burning Man helps enable via Playa Info (physically, it's in Center Camp) might have some long-time concerns about what's possible v. what's supportable or desirable.

There's also a section on the main site for the airport, in case you're considering flying in. They might have their own super-sekrit comm setup.

If the culture and the overall territory are too complex for you to learn about without copping an attitude, you can certainly sit alone in your camp and drain your car battery while the machine baking on the dashboard in the alkali dust atmosphere casts about in the disembodied ether for an anonymous hookup to your Hotmail account.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:35 pm

That was good, I especially like the part about:

"drain your car battery while the machine baking on the dashboard in the alkali dust atmosphere casts about in the disembodied ether for an anonymous hookup to your Hotmail account."

Oh BTW: I have never been to BM, yet. The thread started out as a simple question. Look where it went from there, into a pissing match. Interesting thing when you ask a question and get bitch slapped by "experienced burners". Tends to make a newbie wonder just what sort of people he will meet out in the desert if this is an example of your open armed, ready to welcome all people and ideals, community. Yeah, I can take the flames and shit. Partly because I can look back at post history and see the overall attitudes of a particular person. Mostly because I am comfortable of who I am. Take it or leave it.

flyboypa28r · Post by **flyboypa28r** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:41 pm

"There's also a section on the main site for the airport, in case you're considering flying in."

Wish I could but being my first year and all I want to be camped in the middle of it all. Plus with the stuff I need to haul in..... That does lead to another question:

I read that if you leave and come back you have to pay a little to get back in. Does this apply to the people in aircraft as well?

Post by **actiongrl** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:45 pm

That's not an indicator of how Burning Man "people" are, that's an indicator of how communication can sometimes be in an online forum.

802.11 access to the internet (not PlayaNet's network, but a different open wireless network) has been available to anyone with the right card for several years now. It is sporadic, but it does work throughout a lot of BRC. It's someone's "gift" that they wish to provide to the city - internet access. It may offend some folks' sensibilities, but I say it beats being handed some plastic Oriental Trading Company geegaw. And lo and behold, I don't think it's hurt anyone's experience that it's there, d'you?

I believe that the official doctrine on cell phones, if they ever do start to work out there, is the same as it is for a few other things: keep it in your tent.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:59 pm

Also, take note: You are the one who made the word "Sir" bold, not me. I could take a shit load of your posts and use them out of context with the same undertone. But I like to argue about the content of a post, not waste time mindlessly criticizing semantics

Not being one inclined to erase my posts I'll just go ahead and cop using 'condescending' somewhat inappropriately in describing your reply a few posts back.

Pompous might be more on target.

jinx_sf_burner · Post by **jinx_sf_burner** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:13 pm

Ummm... *speaking very meekly*
I had Internet access on the playa this year, and it enhanced my experience greatly. I could send daily emails to my kids (and the babysitter). It was the first time in three years I didn't take them with me, and being able to check in, know they were okay, and then have fun was a boon.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:33 pm

Hey, I'm all for it as long as you, your friend(s), your camp want to go through the effort of setting it up and getting it going. I know several folks who did in fact bring along satellite phones for whatever reasons. I also know that some folks from Oregon had wireless, satellite linked net access. I have no problem with that. Really.

What sticks in the craw with me is the occasional gripe that these things aren't being provided by the BM project for a small (or even large) group of individuals. If the OP sees a need for net access or emergency contact phones to be made available on the playa then what I'd suggest is that there's a grand opportunity for him/her to fill that need by doing something about it rather than kivetch about it not being done for them.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:49 pm

flyboypa28r wrote:"There's also a section on the main site for the airport, in case you're considering flying in."
Wish I could but being my first year and all I want to be camped in the middle of it all. Plus with the stuff I need to haul in..... That does lead to another question: I read that if you leave and come back you have to pay a little to get back in. Does this apply to the people in aircraft as well?

AFAIK, no. There has been an exit fee at the main gate for vehicles because driving in general after entry is discouraged, to avoid stirring up dust and otherwise disrupting the pedestrian ways of BRC. A shuttle bus is available for trips to the nearest towns. Pedestrian in-and-out access (w/ticket) is provided at the airport as a necessity for fliers and passengers, as well as for land sailer enthusiasts and bicyclists. More info & links to other web sites & the aviators' mailing list:
http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/

actiongrl wrote:That's not an indicator of how Burning Man "people" are, that's an indicator of how communication can sometimes be in an online forum.

802.11 access to the internet (not PlayaNet's network, but a different open wireless network) has been available to anyone with the right card for several years now. It is sporadic, but it does work throughout a lot of BRC. It's someone's "gift" that they wish to provide to the city - internet access. It may offend some folks' sensibilities, but I say it beats being handed some plastic Oriental Trading Company geegaw. And lo and behold, I don't think it's hurt anyone's experience that it's there, d'you?

I believe that the official doctrine on cell phones, if they ever do start to work out there, is the same as it is for a few other things: keep it in your tent.

Cite?

I'd note that it's an indicator of the culture to gauge individual reactions by users and observers to the case of loudly walking, talking, and/or driving through camp w/ any comm device -- whether in your official golf cart or in your tent. Not that my own reaction would be hostile -- more likely, amused, as you well know.

Available networks were already cited above by myself and others. My point was to recognize the context of the gifts, so the differently gifted may participate, if so desired, with a little more knowledge going in.

Post by **actiongrl** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:22 pm

I should always read th' whole thread before posting.

Anyway...you're so right about comm. I have given up and decided that next year I'm annexing off FirstCamp, and a part of it has to do with my need/desire to stay on top of my comm the majority of the time that I'm awake, which puts a wedge between me and my friends. So me and nurse and Hellga and Cabe are just going to spare our campmates and go camp together.

My cite for the 'keep it in your tent' doctrine would be the staff meetings wherein we've discussed the "no cell phones" rule and how it might become a larger issue in future years if/when some provider flips the switch on that there antenna.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:29 pm

Strap a few of these on the Man.

http://www.starportinternational.com/

III · Post by **III** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:54 pm

> I have never been to BM

you don't say. you sure seem to know how things out there work, though. or is that "think you know"?

not that your idea is necessarily all that bad. or good. just the way you're presenting it isn't gonna make a lot of friends...

Reeve · Post by **Reeve** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:58 pm

Hola

Dont worry about it...Wi Fi is playa wide...When you arrive at BM go to the Info Tent and all the available Wi Fi networks are listed with proxies etc...speed kinda sucks so if you have a laptop the AP's location is also listed so you can move closer. Go buy some frisket film that airbrushers use and slap it across the keyboard...this keeps playa dust out..works great..I used my Dell D600 without a problem out there...

I used to during last years burn cuz Im deaf and its my primary means of contact since I dont use phones.

Cheers
Japhy

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:01 pm

A really negative experience I had was this past summer while over in England. I went to the Glastonbury Music Festival which is an event very, very different form ours. On of the things that damn near wounded me was how 150+ thousand people seem to only marginally interact with one another for a lot of reasons. The big one seem to be that they were so damn absorbed in chatting with friends on the phone and relaying what was going on rather than really experiencing it themselves. I swear to god it seemed like every third person was chatting into their phone as they walked about staring at the ground.

It was pretty hideous.

Swore then and there that if wireless were ever made available to people at BRC that I'd never return. Ever.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:29 pm

The big one seem to be that they were so damn absorbed in chatting with friends on the phone and relaying what was going on rather than really experiencing it themselves.

I've experienced the exact same thing it goes something like this:

Guy Shouting into phone:
"DUDE, where are you?"
"Really? That's cool"
"Guess Where I am?"
"NO, Really, Guess!"
"Yeah, I got tickets!"
"Dude, I can't even hear you!"
"It's Unfuckingbelievable!"
"Yeah, it's really cool"
"I'm so fucked up right now"
"Listen to this" (holds phone up in the air)
"NO, Dude that's not them"
"I know, it sounds like them huh?"

Of course I think those stupid talkabout Radios are becoming the playa cell phone. It goes something like this:

"DUDE, where are you?"
"Really? That's cool"
"Guess Where I am?"
"NO, Really, Guess!"
"Yeah, I'm at the Man!"
"Dude, I can't even hear you!"
"It's Unfuckingbelievable!"
"Yeah, it's really cool"
"I'm so fucked up right now"
"Listen to this" (holds talkabout radio up in the air)
"NO, Dude that's not them"
"I know, it sounds like them huh?"

III · Post by **III** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:35 pm

>wireless were ever made available to people at BRC

heh. that's something that should be reserved for senior staff and the rangers. i love that "i'm not really paying attention to you" gaze off into the distance you get because they're keeping half their brain on the radio. tapping into the lifeblood of the event my ass...

III · Post by **III** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:36 pm

(btw, i'll admit to having been guilty of the above behavior. fortunately, by the time i became a ranger, i'd learned the skill of shutting that shit off the second you even think you might have to interact with a real live person)

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:40 pm

You nailed it again Chai.

<raising my glass>

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:15 pm

Thanks Badger.

Also I finally found this link about internet on the playa and wanted to post it. so here:

http://roam.igargoyle.com/trailer/

aimeefissure · Post by **aimeefissure** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:17 pm

rogue agent wrote: I'm strongly opposed to making Internet, VoIP or other technological access to the outside world easily and widely available within the event. I see it as a form of mental pollution that works against the goal of creating a sense of community on the Playa.

How does communication work against community? Even if someone brings a satellite based data communication system to the playa, it doesn't degrade the camaraderie, bonding, fellowship and intimacy people bring, share and find there.

It is almost impossible to believe that no one has set up satellite internet at burning man. They probably just keep to themselves. Making it a public utility is another issue though. I think banning it is silly and control freakish, but making it an expectation is problematic too. If some folks want to set up a wireless LAN in their camp, that's not pollution, it's community. People working together for a mutual vision.

Besides, wireless technology in the desert is mostly the Military's domain. To find a way to use it for a creative purpose...well that's what people come to burning man for.

Internet on the Playa

Hello, Hello, Hello! Is anybody out there...