Professional Playa Power Protocols

A place to discuss all things involving power and technology (including cameras). Generator tips, alternative energy, lighting your camp/bike/art/self, sound systems and more.
Admiralllll
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Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Admiralllll » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:12 pm

This thread is designed to present factual information to all Burning Man participants on how to best generate, acquire, maintain, distribute, and utilize electrical energy within the Black Rock City boundaries. The goal will be to assemble a definitive list of "best practices" to guide us as well as "common mistakes" to avoid. Engineering logic and playa practicality will be emphasized at all times. Sometimes, it IS NOT "a matter of opinion."

Topics to be addressed include: Power sources; Taping the grid; Generator basics; Generator specialties; RV Power; Distribution plan; Extension cords; Adapters; Power strips; and Camp current usage. Professional protocols please!

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some seeing eye
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by some seeing eye » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:16 pm

I support this. Include grounding and safety, usually neglected in local portable generation. NEC is a guide.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:35 pm

The most common, recurring issue with on-playa power generation is noise abatement - almost exclusively with the loud open-frame 3600 RPM lawnmower engine 4000 - 8000 watt sets.
I hate to steer this thread toward dead-horse-beating but the biggest need for a universal protocol is either sound-proofing baffle boxes or avoiding those goddamm things!
It's surprisingly affordable to rent a big, quiet diesel unit.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:40 pm

I'm with Capt. GD on this one. Anything over 80 db shouldn't be necessary. There is a lot of power to be had quietly, and not at a price that is outrageous, either. Sure, we can't all afford a bank of Hondas at 50 cents a watt, but most could afford a knock-off for half that price. And there is always the option of shrouding with a foam-lined enclosure or something home-built.

I go to BM to see art, interact with people, watch stuff burn, and feed my inner child. None of those things are particularly enjoyable when you have some DB's genset pushing 98db through a pepper-box muffler at 3600 rpm next to your camp.

If there was a hard and fast rule that all gennys had to be under 80 db, I'd be happy with that.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by maladroit » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:59 pm

Convert the decibels and distance to a wattage equivalent and then notify the Rangers of an overpowered "amplified sound system" within the city.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Stickygreen » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:25 pm

perhaps a topic of generator placement. Cause some people get refueling, and service to there machines during the week, not always by choice.... Also can be a consideration with noise.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by reader2580 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Would the generator rental places really be able to satisfy the demand for rental units if everyone started doing that instead of bringing their own? Remember, the LLC already rents a lot of generators which means fewer for burners.

I looked into renting a generator from the local Cat rental place in Reno. I would not really call it affordable. Rental units also tend to be quite large and would be more power than most with the 4,000 to 8,000 watts generators could ever use. If one was going to rent a generator it would make sense to create a grid to supply others and split the cost. A big issue with creating a grid is the cost of proper cabling. The generator rental places can usually supply cabling, but of course at a cost.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:51 pm

I have two main articles on this topic, and am building some more:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/burn-power.html is about managing power without a generator, or just an occasional one.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/generators.html is for building a larger power network off a tow-behind style generator.

I've just done a new one at http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/rv-plugin.html which is a guide to give the power users in your camp, in particular the RV denizens.

More to come -- I am planning on laying out the different styles of power distribution, which range from a small generator with everybody plugged in directly, to rental single phase tempower grids with hubbell connectors and spiderboxes, to larger camloc based three-phase distribution trees.

For Burning Man I now advise that using stage pin (bates) based distribution, rented from the folks who do temporary stage lighting, can be the most cost effective. It's cheaper than the stuff the construction tempower guys have. It is not quite as good, no twistlocks, for example, but it is still to code. But easier and cheaper. The 100a stage pin is common, and with it you can easily handle 5 typical RVs per distribution center
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:58 am

The big rental units ARE quite affordable when you split the cost over 5 + people.
I've read over BradTem's articles about BM generator power setups and can't find anything I don't completely agree with. Very informative, comprehensive, and well written!
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Dustdevil » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:27 pm

I was curious if anyone interested in power visited "Black Rock Power CO-OP" this year. This Village was located between A and B streets and from 4:00 to 4:30. We had 8 camps within the Village. The entire block was on a power grid. We fed over 50 RV's, a lot of interactive Theme Camps, two large kitchens, the Orgy dome with four air conditioners, three frozen margarita/slushy machines and dozens of tent campers.
We started with a pair of 70KVA MQ Whisperwatt units. We ran into problems when the various camps ended up with more people than we had originally planned for. My own camp included. The distro system was up to the task, but by Wednesday afternoon we had to add another 85KVA unit. We put the Village on a rolling brown out until the new genny could be wired in. This allowed the three generators to operate at 80-85% capacity. We had no further problems.
Most of our panels were custom built for BRC. We run 3 phase with 00 wire throughout the Village and have sub panels that step down the voltage. We have marked all of the leads ( X Y Z) and this allows us to balance the load, which we do each afternoon. We do our own genny maintainence each morning while the load is light, air filters, fluid checks etc.
We offer power to the Village at a price that is far below anyone else. We can do that because we own all of the equipment so there is no rental charges, only fuel, transportation and service after we get home.
I would be more than happy to share what we have learned over the last seven years of supplying power if anyone is interested.
BTW, I too agree with all the information that Bradtem shared about tow behind generators.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:44 pm

Wow, you did voltage step down? Presumably from 480 volts? We've had temptation to do that in the past, as you can put a lot more in your wire, but the step-down transformers are expensive. I didn't think anybody did it except the BORG grids, of which the center camp one is largest on the playa.

It's getting easier and cheaper to build your own distribution gear. For example, today you can get main lug power panels for dirt cheap, load them up with breakers, and then run 10/3 cable out to RV TT-30 receptacles (I have found a source for plastic inline ones for $12) and you can mount your 5-20Rs right in the panel box by drilling some holes, or putting a gangbox on the side. Having cable come out lets you be a bit more flexible on how you arrange your RV clusters.

The biggest grid I worked on was for one large village and 6 other Esplanade camps in 2007. There we had a 175kw biodiesel generator and 4/0 going under the streets to all the camps, some huge number of RVs. It was a cool year though, so capacity was never strained and fuel budget was low, and fees were like $60 or $80 for an RV, cheaper than running their own generators. And that was renting most of the gear except owning the final RV distros as you can't easily rent those.

If you want to do it really on the cheap, you can even just create a small box to take one 100a bates stage pin to 5 TT-30s because each RV should have its own 30 amp master breaker, and the stage pin will have a 100a breaker on it. The main issue would be people plugging in 50a RVs into the TT-30s using the 14-50R to TT-30P adapter they all have, which could in theory present an issue as there is now a 50a breaker on a line which gear only rated 30a. You could directly wire in a 14-50R with heavier wire, and even have the reverse adapter on hand to make that socket dual use. Usually I say to tell the people with 50a RVs they will only run one air conditioner. If you want to give them the full power you want to charge them double, though.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Dustdevil » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:21 pm

We have only three camp members with 50A RVs. Two of the three are required to run the 50 to 30 A adapters and we built a 50A subpanel to handle the one that we do power up. He has special needs so we made allowances. We have even modified a few construction boxes with the 30A RV gear. I generally don't like to run C boxes, but we bring some for the "last minute" people that are on the fringes of the grid.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:37 pm

We had a bunch more in our camp this year, not sure why. And what we also found was that they were blowing the 20a breakers starting their air conditioners plugged into the 5-20R sockets on the spiderboxes. So I had with me a converter from Hubbell to TT-30. In theory there was a risk but the amount of 30a gear in the line was small. While these units are rated for 50 amps per phase, my expectation is that they don't draw over 30 amps, perhaps except for short bursts. Anybody put an ammeter on them to see what they actually do? My understanding is they typically wire one AC and the other circuits to one phase, and then the other line (which actually can be the same phase on another circuit as 240v is not used) has the second AC. Or do they split things among the two lines, and if so, what do they do when only plugged into 30a service?

The Class A I've used was a single AC unit. It could even run on a 15a circuit if needed, though it would get a bit warm, and some risk of blowing the breaker. Since most folks don't run lights or other things with AC they usually do OK if they put their fridge on propane-only. (Most RVs switch the fridge to shore power if they see it unless you tell them not to.)
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Dustdevil » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:36 pm

The 50A RVs that we plugged into a 30A circuit would not run a second AC unit. Some of them had random other items that would not function, IE: various interior edison recepticles etc. The microwaves still worked. One had a fake fireplace that was also a heater, it would not function on 30A.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:54 pm

Hmm. As noted as far as I know all 50A RVs do not use 240v, they just use two hots, so they can have a total of 50a times 2. But often they have to park in 30a spaces and use the adapter. I had presumed the regular adapter just connected one phase, and that means the other AC was just plain disconnected, and as you say this may mean some other appliances and plugs as well. It is suggested that some of these adapters split the 30a on to both phases which means everything would be connected but if you tried to run more than 30a you would blow the breaker in the shore box. This is the situation I want to check on because if you plug a 50A RV into a Hubbell with a 50a upstream breaker but use at TT-30 adapter, you could end up putting 50 amps through that cord and TT-30 which they are not rated for (but can probably handle for a limited time.)

50A RVs also come with what they call a "cheater" adapter that has two TT-30s, so it puts one on each phase, and you can by and large run everything, though you might get in trouble if you try to run the AC, hairdryer, clothes dryer, wash machine, microwave, TV and toaster at the same time. That's what the full 50 amp by 2 service is there for -- so people can act like they are in a house, and run all those things at once. On the playa, you had better not be running the washer and dryer, a toaster or other electric cooker seems foolish, you don't need a hair dryer and you can turn off your AC to run the microwave -- in other words you should never pull more than 15-20a except on the startup surge of your AC.

But as we all know, campers will be idiots, or their guests will. There's a story told on the BM site of some folks in an RV who had a guest come in. She decided to be nice and wash the dishes. She did it like she would at home, with the water running, draining/filling their fresh/gray tanks.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by gyre » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:17 pm

maladroit wrote:Convert the decibels and distance to a wattage equivalent and then notify the Rangers of an overpowered "amplified sound system" within the city.
There is no "wattage translation to decibels" without an efficacy rating for the equipment.

The sensitivity rating on most of my home speakers are over 100 db at one watt, some far over that.
And good pa drivers are far more efficient than most home equipment, at some sacrifice of accuracy, distortion and bass response.
Some speakers are as low as 86 db/ one watt, a massive difference.

Just a meaningless term, like amp power specs that don't include distortion and noise ratings.

Good idea comparing generators.
NVH is the difficult factor though.
I have slept quite close to one of Dustdevil's generators.
Very low obnoxious factor, slept like a baby.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by sambojones » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:54 am

bradtem wrote:I have two main articles on this topic, and am building some more:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/burn-power.html is about managing power without a generator, or just an occasional one.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/generators.html is for building a larger power network off a tow-behind style generator.

I've just done a new one at http://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/rv-plugin.html which is a guide to give the power users in your camp, in particular the RV denizens.

More to come -- I am planning on laying out the different styles of power distribution, which range from a small generator with everybody plugged in directly, to rental single phase tempower grids with hubbell connectors and spiderboxes, to larger camloc based three-phase distribution trees.

For Burning Man I now advise that using stage pin (bates) based distribution, rented from the folks who do temporary stage lighting, can be the most cost effective. It's cheaper than the stuff the construction tempower guys have. It is not quite as good, no twistlocks, for example, but it is still to code. But easier and cheaper. The 100a stage pin is common, and with it you can easily handle 5 typical RVs per distribution center
lots of awesome info thank you so much for this treasure trove! Do you happen to have any advice for powering a sound system mutant vehicle? Our power needs for the sound system is going to need around 10-15kw to run. I was thinking of buying 2-3 used honda eu6500i generators and running them together or would a diesel be a better choice?

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:12 am

I've never done a big art car like that. But really, 10 to 15kw? Hope you stick to the deep playa and don't park by my camp at 6am like some of your cousins do. Modern lighting with LEDs is much more efficient so you can make an incredible light show for much less today, though some LED systems have been known to be picky about their power quality (ie. no square waves.) Those Honda generators are top of the line, though I am not sure they can be twinned the way the smaller ones can. You should not need to twin them unless you have something that draws 5,000 watts all on its own, which surely you don't. You will want to adapt your highest power gear to the superior twistlock sockets on that generator. They should provide clean power and be as quiet as you wlll get for this.

Another alternative, if you are up for mounting it, would be the 10 to 12kw diesel generators sold for big RVs and for home standby. These produce decent quality power, and are almost as good as the inverters, and actually would be a lot cheaper than two of those Hondas. Sadly, your sound system is so loud that the sound of the slightly louder generators should not be a big issue. I have not worked with them, and I presume they are not designed for the 24/7 duty cycle of the $10,000 site power units, but for an art car it might be looking into as it's a lot cheaper. The main thing to avoid are those cheap units you see for $500 or so in the hardware stores at 5kw.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by gyre » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:15 am

That's just the sound system, so 150 to 180 decibels?

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by EspressoDude » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:21 am

some of the big sound buses tow a 50kw diesel genny behind them for their sound systems
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by sambojones » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:47 pm

bradtem wrote:I've never done a big art car like that. But really, 10 to 15kw? Hope you stick to the deep playa and don't park by my camp at 6am like some of your cousins do. Modern lighting with LEDs is much more efficient so you can make an incredible light show for much less today, though some LED systems have been known to be picky about their power quality (ie. no square waves.) Those Honda generators are top of the line, though I am not sure they can be twinned the way the smaller ones can. You should not need to twin them unless you have something that draws 5,000 watts all on its own, which surely you don't. You will want to adapt your highest power gear to the superior twistlock sockets on that generator. They should provide clean power and be as quiet as you wlll get for this.

Another alternative, if you are up for mounting it, would be the 10 to 12kw diesel generators sold for big RVs and for home standby. These produce decent quality power, and are almost as good as the inverters, and actually would be a lot cheaper than two of those Hondas. Sadly, your sound system is so loud that the sound of the slightly louder generators should not be a big issue. I have not worked with them, and I presume they are not designed for the 24/7 duty cycle of the $10,000 site power units, but for an art car it might be looking into as it's a lot cheaper. The main thing to avoid are those cheap units you see for $500 or so in the hardware stores at 5kw.
Bradtem-

We'll definitely do our best to be as mindful of respecting boundaries with our sound as we can. It looks like your right about not being able to twin them or at least they don't advertise it, but I think your right in that it won't matter big picture because we do t have anything running 5kw+ by itself. I looked into some of the onan rv and small commercial diesel generators but I wasn't sure if the extra 10-20db of noise produced by them would be too much so thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure on the ease of repair on a diesel unit vs a gas unit like the eu65000i. I know the hondas are pretty easy to work on for a diy mechenic like me, but I haven't worked with diesel engines before so I'm aprehensive to buy something unless I can fix it myself. The hondas eu6500i's that I've looked at have been in the $2-2.5k range for good condition used units which is much better than the $4.5-5k new price tag.
gyre wrote:That's just the sound system, so 150 to 180 decibels?
I'm not sure how many decibels yet. We haven't designed the sound system yet we've only had some initial discussions about the size of the crowd we hope for and the number of speakers needed to produce a quality experience for them. We have a sound engineer who will design the system once we get our final plans for the vehicle nailed down. From experiencing many sound vehicles and sound camps over 5 burns I feel like we would have one of the smaller setups on playa even if we reach our maximum power goal of 15kw. Honestly I think our end product will be in the 10kw range at least for the first year unless we manage to do some major fundraising or someone in our crew wins the lottery.

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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by sambojones » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:49 pm

EspressoDude wrote:some of the big sound buses tow a 50kw diesel genny behind them for their sound systems
Yup when I camped with root society in 2009 I think we had either 2 or 3 of those big 50kw diesel gennies it was pretty ridiculous lol
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by Boijoy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:51 pm

I have a 30w solar panel to run my tiny fan & little speakers. :oops:
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by The CO » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:03 pm

sambojones wrote:
gyre wrote:That's just the sound system, so 150 to 180 decibels?
I'm not sure how many decibels yet. We haven't designed the sound system yet we've only had some initial discussions about the size of the crowd we hope for and the number of speakers needed to produce a quality experience for them. We have a sound engineer who will design the system once we get our final plans for the vehicle nailed down.
Well, the first thing a good audio engineer should tell you is 150-180 dB SPL is in the range of permanent hearing loss, damage and death of hearing tissue, and even potential death. OSHA lists the max daily exposure time to 112dB as zero (0) seconds.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by sambojones » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:41 pm

The CO wrote:
sambojones wrote:
gyre wrote:That's just the sound system, so 150 to 180 decibels?
I'm not sure how many decibels yet. We haven't designed the sound system yet we've only had some initial discussions about the size of the crowd we hope for and the number of speakers needed to produce a quality experience for them. We have a sound engineer who will design the system once we get our final plans for the vehicle nailed down.
Well, the first thing a good audio engineer should tell you is 150-180 dB SPL is in the range of permanent hearing loss, damage and death of hearing tissue, and even potential death. OSHA lists the max daily exposure time to 112dB as zero (0) seconds.
Yeah we have no plans to make our system as loud as possible we definitely want a thump but we're going for sound quality and clarity for our audience vs sheer loudness like some camps. One of our crew has damaged hearing from speakers that were too loud so we're very sensative to sound damage and will be handing out ear plugs for anyone that wants them.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by GreyCoyote » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:17 pm

If you think you need that kind of power for your audio, you may need to re-evaluate your "needs". There is a difference between making hellish and painful noise, and making an ambience that people will enjoy and talk about. It isnt about DBs, its about quality. Power does not equal quality.

If you want to have an acoustic dick-waving contest, you dont need speakers or a generator. Just find an old jet engine of the non-bypass variety and plug it in. Cough the reheat a couple of times and all the sparkleponies will go weak in the knees. Wow. You win. Everyone is impressed. And you will have some nice flame effects too.

Think about this, please, before you add to the acoustic arms race happening on the playa.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by bradtem » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:31 pm

Indeed. Also, there can be a very large difference between how many watts the system is rated for, or its peak output, and how many watts you would really put into it, in practice. I see nightclubs advertising they have 30kw or even larger sound systems, but to really put that into a room? It would make people's ears bleed, and not in a metaphorical way.

I also wish that camps and cars didn't feel that loud was the only thing to do. In fact, I would be totally cool with every burner just being issued some silent dance party headphones, and then everybody, with no budget at all, could produce a great dance space. Yes, they would not have bass that vibrated the ground and your body, but a lot of money, ears and effort would be saved, and there would be a lot more variety of spinning and dance clubs. Save speakers for the live music and for a quiet feed of "here's what you would hear at whatever volume you want if you tune your headphones to XYZ" as you walk by the DJ. I know a lot of people would say, "Oh, but I would miss the ambience, the thump, thump, the pulse of the playa" and they would indeed miss it. But a lot would be gained.
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by gyre » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:35 pm

The french experimented with low frequency sirens, but reportedly stopped when the technicians suffered internal bleeding, in spite of massive concrete and lead shielding.
Easy to build though.

170-180 decibels
Image

Small rotary sirens can easily produce 100 decibels at 100 feet omnidirectional.
Some ranged over 140 db at 100 feet, but some run at much lower frequencies, so comparison can be difficult.
One here can shake walls from blocks away.

(I nearly bought one of these for my home alarm. It came with a warning from the police in the town that sold it.)
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EspressoDude
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Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by EspressoDude » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:19 pm

This is digressing a ways from electrical power distribution, but power is power!!

From a Robot Heart web page ( http://www.residentadvisor.net/event.aspx?114468 )

2009:

This year our new and completely rebuilt sound system uses several proprietary design features to elevate performance to an impressive level. We’ve reconfigured BOT with 18 Neo-Drive 2-way horn loaded, high-frequency modules that utilize some of the most refined drivers available in the industry. These drivers are arrayed in left and right clusters to provide dynamic highs that are ultra loud yet super crisp and clean. These new high frequency clusters are powered by 24,000 watts of amplifiers controlled with state of the art digital signal processors (DSPs) including specially optimized time alignment. We use DSP controllers to create a dynamic steering effect to lower the sound stage down to street level, and extend the width far beyond what’s been done to date. Both the mid and high frequency drivers use FEA optimized horn loading which exhibit very high spl capability with incredible dynamic range. Simply stated: clean, crisp mid and high notes.

We know that nothing feels better than dancing on the Playa and enjoying raw beats and heavy bass. So we looked far and wide to find the finest subwoofers available to meet your dancing needs. BOT is newly configured with 24 Neo-Drive 21" Carbon Fiber 2000 watt subwoofers loaded in computer optimized bass reflex enclosures. We mounted the subwoofers into two vertical line arrays that produce lower and wider distribution of the sound energy. It would take 40 or more 18" woofers to get close to the performance of the 24 Neo-Drive 21"s due to the increased cone area, as well as their 38mm xmax excursion. The 24 x 21" subwoofers are powered by 24,000 watts of premium amplifiers and controlled by state of the art DSPs.

As if one re-configured sound system and mutant vehicle wasn’t enough, we decided to build a stunning smaller companion to BOT to join the fun. Say hello to PussyTongue (PT), our newest creation that will make its debut alongside BOT at Burning Man 2009. PT has an audio sound system similar to that on BOT, with 8 Neo-Drive 2-way high frequency modules powered by 10,000 watts of amplification and controlled with state of the art DSPs. PT also has 16 Neo-Drive 21” Carbon Fiber 2000 watt subwoofers powered with 16,000 watts and tied through our DSP controller. Our new friend will be linked wirelessly to BOT and act as a rear fill audio to create the ultimate circular sound experience. When not rocking out with the BOT, PT is geared up to roam independently and bring some awesomeness to the Playa on its own.

For you tech hungry DJ's and sound freaks, here’s our system:
· 26 horn loaded 12’s
· 26 2" exit compression drivers
· 40 Carbon fiber 21" subwoofers
· 74,000 watts

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Chrysler air raid siren

http://chryslerairraidsiren.com/

331 CU.IN. HEMI ENGINE
180HP @ 4600 RPM
176 db @ THE SIREN
138 db 100FT. AWAY
CAN BE HEARD FOR OVER 10 MILES
AIR VELOCITY EXITING SIREN-400 MPH
WEIGHT OF SIREN-4000 lbs
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or if you want LOUD:
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maladroit
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Burning Since: 2012

Re: Professional Playa Power Protocols

Post by maladroit » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:22 pm

I have absolutely zero sound complaints other than nasty open-frame cheapo generators. The loud sound camps, art cars, and people yelling are all great. There are lots of deep, green forests to camp in if you like the quiet.

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