Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

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Bevan
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Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Bevan » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:52 pm

I run 3 Honda eu2000s 24/7 for weeks, providing power at the FL. Ren faire to about 30 tent campers. I bill each camper with there own meter at $3kwh.

I also have a meter on each one of the eu2000s outputs and can tell you, the group of 3 is only as good as the weakest one. Yes, each ones output, at a cruzing load varies between;
500 watts / 800 watt / 900 watt = 2,200 watt

And here's the spread when I'm at max.
1,000 watt / 1,400 watt / 1,600 watt = 4,000

I've got friends with eu2000s that we have throne on with simpler results. Not random, btw. And yes, each have varying ages and hours on them. In fact we've never put two that were purchased on the same day, together.
So as you can see, getting all 3 to match is not happening.
Max. = 4,000 watt. Not 1,600 x 3 = 4,800 watts

I want to add a eu3000 into my mix.

Would some one tell me what there set of eu2000s and eu3000s outputs are each coming in at, please.

My fear is one of the eu2000s will pop at 2,000watts before the eu3000 gets close to its full output.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:30 pm

I didn't put watt meters on them but I have paralleled 1000s with 2000s and 2000s with 3000s and have run loads that I thought would oveload the smaller ones if the load was sharing equally.
I'm pretty baffled by your readings.
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Bevan
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Bevan » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:32 pm

I think I'm going to rent a eu3000 for a day and pop meters on a group of three.
And run a 1/4gl. of gas in each to get milage per watt.

I'll be back to this post befor BM.

Thanks for your responce.

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Popeye
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Popeye » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:00 pm

I suspect that the inconsistencies may be due to measurement error.
A Honda 2000i generates a high frequency AC signal to an inverter which produces square wave 120V AC. This is not the sine wave AC produced by the power company. Many volt, amp and power meters are calibrated for sine wave AC. You will need a Tru RMS meter to accurately read the power in a square wave. I think that if you look at the output of your different generators on an oscilloscope you will see different square wave signals, all with aproximately the same voltage, frequency and current but different power charecteristics. If you take the signal from one generator and look at it on a scope you will see the signal change when you change the load from resistive (electric heater or incandescent bulb) to inductive/capacitive (LED lights or computer) to unloaded.
Check that your power meters measure True RMS.
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Bevan
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Bevan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:39 am

Wow.
So, this might also exsplain a bunch of them having there timers all go back once, 60% of there total time, com paired to the others.

Link to the meters manual.
http://www.p3international.com/manuals/p4460_manual.pdf

Bevan
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Bevan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:07 am

When I started this 10 years ago, I used an OutBack 3,500 inverter. (It made my 850 watt AC unit only use 750 watts) This feed all my Campers.

24v Battery's at 3,500 kWh,
1,2000 watts of solar and a
eu2000 feeding a nice 1,000 watt charger (a steddy 24/7 and only a 22% loss)

That was some clean power.

Last year we lost two "cheep" TVs and one generic laptop power supply.
I miss the better than the city, true sign wave outBack.

All was lost, this year, in the floods that hit Houston this year.
(If anyone can fix the electronic stuff, hook me up)

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some seeing eye
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby some seeing eye » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:53 am

My theory is that it is a variation in the load following circuitry.

Each generator has an excitation field winding and a load winding. Increase the excitation current and the throttle to produce more load current.

The generators load follow, producing enough AC current to equal the load by sensing the frequency. If there is more load than generation, the frequency decreases, the generator senses this and increases throttle and excitation current, restoring the frequency to normal and matching the generation to the new load. The same process goes in reverse if there is less load than generation. With the generators paralleled, they are phase locked. But slight inaccuracies between controllers will cause each generator to settle into different current outputs.
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Bevan
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Bevan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:24 pm

Is it possible to tune or build an onboard, thing to tune them to balance them?

Each is consistent, relevant to one another. Three difrent repair guys that work on hondas have told me that two of the same age will be closer. And I'm realizing the older one is the wimpiest.
I just put a new $305 inverter in the first one I bought, it has 5 months on it and ranks #3 in its output. Conclusion; it's not the adage of the electronics.

The real question for you is.

When the eu3000 at 2,800 watts of draw put the eu2000 at 1,600 watts, with the two paralleled?

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some seeing eye
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby some seeing eye » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:39 pm

Bevan wrote:Is it possible to tune or build an onboard, thing to tune them to balance them?


Doubtful.

If you have the old broken inverter module, you can do "epoxy stripping," "de-potting" or "unpotting." If there is a microprocessor in there, you could find a geek, get a new module, extract the code through the debug port (if there is one) and reverse engineer it. If its analog, figure out how it works and then find an adjustment point.

It might be possible to goose the throttle pump.
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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:44 pm

Popeye wrote:I suspect that the inconsistencies may be due to measurement error.
A Honda 2000i generates a high frequency AC signal to an inverter which produces square wave 120V AC. This is not the sine wave AC produced by the power company. Many volt, amp and power meters are calibrated for sine wave.



You started out sounding like you knew what you were taking about until you said that. They make very clean pure sine wave AC, exactly like that found at your home.
EU2000s DO NOT produce square wave power. Not even "modified sine wave" like most cheap inverters.
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raftin
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby raftin » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:51 pm

If you put the two together they will both try to carry equal load until the lowest output Honda overloads and trips to standby mode. They the remaining generators will pick up the load. If there are just a total of 2 generators then the second one will trip if it is not more than twice as strong as the first one. Really no benefit to running mixed generators in a parallel configuration.

http://idahomojo.com/random-info/honda- ... nking.html

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Elliot
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Elliot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:52 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:... ... They make very clean pure sine wave AC, exactly like that found at your home.
EU2000s DO NOT produce square wave power. Not even "modified sine wave" like most cheap inverters.

A few years ago, someone here posted actual test results which showed this clearly. I seem to remember this applied to all the Honda EUs on the market at the time -- 1000, 2000 & 3000.
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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Parallel Honda eu2000s with a eu3000

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:14 pm

raftin wrote:If you put the two together they will both try to carry equal load until the lowest output Honda overloads and trips to standby mode. They the remaining generators will pick up the load. If there are just a total of 2 generators then the second one will trip if it is not more than twice as strong as the first one. Really no benefit to running mixed generators in a parallel configuration.

http://idahomojo.com/random-info/honda- ... nking.html

Have you tried it? I have and what you're claiming isn't what happened when I did it. Your theory makes sense, but I've actually done this stuff.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
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