Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

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Simon of the Playa
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:31 pm

its like when i see poor people wearing madras, and im like, you didnt go to groton, wtf?



i digress.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby melodiousdirge » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:17 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I hate cultural appropriation as yet another stripping of resources from the occupied to the colonial occupier.


We need to stop painting what we call "cultural appropriation" in this way. Even the term cultural appropriation is an inappropriate descriptor - culture isn't being appropriated as in taken away, it's being adopted and altered by context. A raver girl wearing a headdress didn't steal that look from a tribesman, nor is she standing in the way of him continuing to observe his heritage as he chooses. Culture and fashion are elastic things, and we all find a way that suits us to express how we feel we fit in. Getting offended because someone has mimicked something from your heritage and gotten it wrong or used it inappropriately is kind of stupid unless they are attempting to use it within the context of YOUR culture. If said raver girl walked onto a reservation in a headdress and war paint in some bid to fit in, yeah, sure, maybe offense could/should be taken. At burning man, the whole damn point is that anything goes. Part of the point is to stretch your boundaries, and to encourage wacky departure from social norm. Respect for people's experiences is important, but if someone is leaving well enough alone and just wearing what they want to wear, then "you can't do that, it's offensive" has no place on the playa. JMO
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:01 am

Quick, everybody stop eating tacos, especially NDN tacos!!!!!!!! :roll:
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby maladroit » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:12 am

melodiousdirge wrote:If said raver girl walked onto a reservation in a headdress and war paint in some bid to fit in, yeah, sure, maybe offense could/should be taken.


It's not a far stretch, at all, to consider that this might happen. There's immediate proximity to a Paiute reservation.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby melodiousdirge » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:00 pm

maladroit wrote:
melodiousdirge wrote:If said raver girl walked onto a reservation in a headdress and war paint in some bid to fit in, yeah, sure, maybe offense could/should be taken.


It's not a far stretch, at all, to consider that this might happen. There's immediate proximity to a Paiute reservation.


Are you suggesting that people shouldn't wear headdresses at burning man because it might get stuck to their head long enough that they wander onto the reservation next door with it and offend some natives?
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby chiefdanfox » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:57 pm

Is it appropriation if a white dude wears a headdress, but does so because he is cosplaying Felipe Rose?

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby ygmir » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:40 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:Whew. Glad to hear it! Because at some point a gay, buck-naked Jewish dude will run by with a henna swastika tattoo and an eagle feather protruding from his ass. Thats when the real test happens.

If you recoil in horror or revulsion, you failed.
If your first reaction was laughter followed by concern there might be a whole live bird jammed up in there, you're gonna do just fine.

*swoon*


can I be offended, too?
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:44 pm

chiefdanfox wrote:Is it appropriation if a white dude wears a headdress, but does so because he is cosplaying Felipe Rose?



Studio-Portrait-of-the-Vi-007.jpg




i remember when dance music was gay.......before the frat boys appropriated it....
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:56 pm

Because of that shit I spent most of my childhood thinking that I was gonna be a Native American warrior when I grew up. You know, like all the other kids thought they were gonna be cops, pilots, soldiers, construction workers and cowboys.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:05 pm

A-RockLeFrench wrote:Because of that shit I spent most of my childhood thinking that I was gonna be a Native American warrior when I grew up. You know, like all the other kids thought they were gonna be cops, pilots, soldiers, construction workers and cowboys.



as a twelve year old, i had no idea of the subtext, and actually thought the YMCA sure seemed like a great place to go hang out.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby maladroit » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:28 pm

Not that it isn't or anything.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby GreyCoyote » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:50 pm

Is it just me, or did the jukebox just play something by the Village People? :mrgreen:
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Dr. Pyro » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:15 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
chiefdanfox wrote:Is it appropriation if a white dude wears a headdress, but does so because he is cosplaying Felipe Rose?



Studio-Portrait-of-the-Vi-007.jpg





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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby AntiM » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:43 am

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby some seeing eye » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:09 am

Anti-Native American cultural appropriation is an emerging movement that is gaining traction. It has primarily been successful at renaming sports teams and changing sports mascots. Just starting to have an impact on festival and fashion culture. Because it is emerging, it may not have gotten to you, or when it does, you might not accept it. That's the nature of cultural movements.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:30 am

thank you for showing me the way...


i am now in the process of burning all of my jazz albums, all of my italian shoes, and i am throwing away all spices not indigenous to western ny.


g^d forbid i appreciate and use some other cultures stuff...


BTW, all of you goy out there who use any yiddish words in conversation, just stop it, you fucking schmucks, thats OUR word.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Doctor VonBacon » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:41 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:

i am throwing away all spices not indigenous to western ny.



At least you'll still have Genesee cream ale...
I like eggs.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby ygmir » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:45 am

the contrast is interesting:
we are told this nation is a "melting pot", and even many early immigrants, were forced to change their names and such, if they wanted to be "American", and leave the old culture behind.
It's not a bad concept, in that national pride and identity is an important part of society.
And then, we turn around, and have this "cultural appropriation" debate.
Really?
What Simon says is spot on.
I like pizza, and chow mein, I even cook them, and probably wrong.
So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.
Why is it not "your stuff is cool, so is mine, here, try it"?
And why is it not acceptable to say "good for you, but that is not for me, and I don't want to do/try/be it"?
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Bless » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:49 am

Simon, if it's not too late can I reappropriate your Italian designer shoes instead of you burning them, you mensch.

I need some new Gucci drivers for the playa.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby tatonka » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:50 am

yep Ygmir a melting pot is what it is , why seperate when we are all Americans now.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:05 am

ygmir wrote:the contrast is interesting:
we are told this nation is a "melting pot", and even many early immigrants, were forced to change their names and such, if they wanted to be "American", and leave the old culture behind.
It's not a bad concept, in that national pride and identity is an important part of society.
And then, we turn around, and have this "cultural appropriation" debate.
Really?
What Simon says is spot on.
I like pizza, and chow mein, I even cook them, and probably wrong.
So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.
Why is it not "your stuff is cool, so is mine, here, try it"?
And why is it not acceptable to say "good for you, but that is not for me, and I don't want to do/try/be it"?


The short answer is because we (as priviliged white folks) are currently still enjoying the benefits of oppressing another people. The genocide and oppression of native Americans continues today and is probably one of the longest in history. So I can understand that their feelings get hurt when priviliged white kids put on a war bonnet and prance around the desert high on molly. Not only did we steal your land and rape your women now we are making a mockery of your culture.

Personally, I think it is important to have an understanding of this dynamic even though (especially because) I have nothing but irrereverence for the concept of cultural ownership.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:03 pm

new Gucci drivers for the playa.




i also have a taste for Gieves & Hawkes too...



bespoke, of course.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Aurelia » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:30 pm

OMG
THIS is the reason I go to the playa

you are exactly perfect

and I am trying to not go
until I read this thread

Simon what is wny ?

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby maladroit » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:32 pm

ygmir wrote:the contrast is interesting:
we are told this nation is a "melting pot", and even many early immigrants, were forced to change their names and such, if they wanted to be "American", and leave the old culture behind.
It's not a bad concept, in that national pride and identity is an important part of society.
And then, we turn around, and have this "cultural appropriation" debate.
Really?
What Simon says is spot on.
I like pizza, and chow mein, I even cook them, and probably wrong.
So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.
Why is it not "your stuff is cool, so is mine, here, try it"?
And why is it not acceptable to say "good for you, but that is not for me, and I don't want to do/try/be it"?


To play the "I can see their point, but Burning Man" angle, there's a difference between the populations that were already here, the ones that chose to come here, and the ones that were forcibly brought here. Not everyone is willing to "get over it" and melt into the pot. And that's OK. Remember that we're getting upset over someone telling someone else how to behave, so let's not tell the original tellers how to behave in return.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby ygmir » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:08 pm

maladroit wrote:
ygmir wrote:the contrast is interesting:
we are told this nation is a "melting pot", and even many early immigrants, were forced to change their names and such, if they wanted to be "American", and leave the old culture behind.
It's not a bad concept, in that national pride and identity is an important part of society.
And then, we turn around, and have this "cultural appropriation" debate.
Really?
What Simon says is spot on.
I like pizza, and chow mein, I even cook them, and probably wrong.
So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.
Why is it not "your stuff is cool, so is mine, here, try it"?
And why is it not acceptable to say "good for you, but that is not for me, and I don't want to do/try/be it"?


To play the "I can see their point, but Burning Man" angle, there's a difference between the populations that were already here, the ones that chose to come here, and the ones that were forcibly brought here. Not everyone is willing to "get over it" and melt into the pot. And that's OK. Remember that we're getting upset over someone telling someone else how to behave, so let's not tell the original tellers how to behave in return.


*pedantic hat on*
well, on one was "originally here", everyone came here at one time, from somewhere else (see: Siberian land bridge/Polynesian raft across the Pacific/walking over the north Atlantic on the ice sheet)

and I disagree, no one is telling "them" how to behave, what is being said is (IMHO): We'll dress or eat or decorate our bodies, however we choose, and sorry if you don't like it.

I think there is a difference.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby maladroit » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:18 pm

ygmir wrote:*So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.


ygmir wrote:*pedantic hat on*
well, on one was "originally here", everyone came here at one time, from somewhere else (see: Siberian land bridge/Polynesian raft across the Pacific/walking over the north Atlantic on the ice sheet)

and I disagree, no one is telling "them" how to behave, what is being said is (IMHO): We'll dress or eat or decorate our bodies, however we choose, and sorry if you don't like it.

I think there is a difference.


We don't disagree on that point, but your quote above mocks people making those choices, with the implication that in your opinion they shouldn't consider themselves special or try to preserve their traditions and culture in whatever way they choose.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby ygmir » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:38 pm

maladroit wrote:
ygmir wrote:*So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.


ygmir wrote:*pedantic hat on*
well, on one was "originally here", everyone came here at one time, from somewhere else (see: Siberian land bridge/Polynesian raft across the Pacific/walking over the north Atlantic on the ice sheet)

and I disagree, no one is telling "them" how to behave, what is being said is (IMHO): We'll dress or eat or decorate our bodies, however we choose, and sorry if you don't like it.

I think there is a difference.


We don't disagree on that point, but your quote above mocks people making those choices, with the implication that in your opinion they shouldn't consider themselves special or try to preserve their traditions and culture in whatever way they choose.


mm, not mocking at all. just because an opinion does not agree with yours, does not invalidate it, nor make it wrong. I am not forcing anything, on anyone with that opinion. I'm just not buying into someone else's sensitivities.
sorta the "if you don't like seeing me, don't look" thing.

ETA:
everyone has the right to say, do, or wear what they want, no one has the right to "not be offended".
*exception for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" concept*
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby lucky420 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:56 pm

ygmir wrote:
maladroit wrote:
ygmir wrote:*So many people wanting to be "special", creates an attitude of "I'm special" towards others, IMHO.
How, can we "get along" when we self isolate, based on physical characteristics, religion, or heritage.


ygmir wrote:*pedantic hat on*
well, on one was "originally here", everyone came here at one time, from somewhere else (see: Siberian land bridge/Polynesian raft across the Pacific/walking over the north Atlantic on the ice sheet)

and I disagree, no one is telling "them" how to behave, what is being said is (IMHO): We'll dress or eat or decorate our bodies, however we choose, and sorry if you don't like it.

I think there is a difference.


We don't disagree on that point, but your quote above mocks people making those choices, with the implication that in your opinion they shouldn't consider themselves special or try to preserve their traditions and culture in whatever way they choose.


mm, not mocking at all. just because an opinion does not agree with yours, does not invalidate it, nor make it wrong. I am not forcing anything, on anyone with that opinion. I'm just not buying into someone else's sensitivities.
sorta the "if you don't like seeing me, don't look" thing.

ETA:
everyone has the right to say, do, or wear what they want, no one has the right to "not be offended".
*exception for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" concept*


this!
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby Lonesomebri » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:24 pm

Look, it's the dudes sporting dread locks who are not Rastafarian or from the house of Judah (not vegetarian or abstaining from alcohol as per those cultural belief systems) these are the people who really offend me.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation and Burning Man

Postby maladroit » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:03 pm

ygmir wrote:mm, not mocking at all. just because an opinion does not agree with yours, does not invalidate it, nor make it wrong. I am not forcing anything, on anyone with that opinion. I'm just not buying into someone else's sensitivities.
sorta the "if you don't like seeing me, don't look" thing.

ETA:
everyone has the right to say, do, or wear what they want, no one has the right to "not be offended".
*exception for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" concept*


I'm not claiming you're wrong, I'm not even claiming we have different opinions. Nor am I claiming that you're forcing anyone to do anything, ever.

Here's my ONLY point: you're acting sensitive about someone else's need to be sensitive about their culture. You're acting like it somehow bothers you that someone else wants to lay claim to their cultural heritage...even if they actually can't stop you in any way. You're pointing out and shaming someone else's opinion and speech because it bothers you, while in the midst of trying to say THEY shouldn't be pointing out OUR speech and opinions that bother THEM.

I'm a big believer of mixing cultures and tradtions, open sharing, and all the good things that can create. However, it can't happen if we say "well aren't YOU special" to people when they try to follow some of those traditions. Isolation is a result of that, not something they want to do.


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