cooling your tent or van

Swamp Coolers, Cooler Management, Dry Ice, Misting Systems, and just plain how to beat the heat.
herpderpleton
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:52 pm
Burning Since: 2016

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby herpderpleton » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:09 pm

Following up previous question and thanks again for your input. I'm trying to do a basic figjam build. This just arrived from amazon. Is this pump too small or not powerful enough?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010LY7P3Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

pump.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
spacetime
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 am
Burning Since: 2014

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby spacetime » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:45 pm

That is the size I use and have a backup for. Try it, should be plenty of drips

herpderpleton
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:52 pm
Burning Since: 2016

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby herpderpleton » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:57 pm

spacetime wrote:That is the size I use and have a backup for. Try it, should be plenty of drips


Nice. Thank you kindly, spacetime!

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:44 pm

That's why we use a return air register instead of holes for the unicooler.

It keeps the water flowing to the inside while providing max air flow.

It looks like you will have air flowing OVER your pvc which will Not let the cooler work at its best.

403487559.jpg


403577512.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

bhearn
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm
Burning Since: 2015
Camp Name: Nosefish

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby bhearn » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:21 pm

FIGJAM wrote:That's why we use a return air register instead of holes for the unicooler.

It keeps the water flowing to the inside while providing max air flow.

It looks like you will have air flowing OVER your pvc which will Not let the cooler work at its best.


Are you talking to me? The walls of the Genuine Joe are not vertical, so I had to do it this way. But sealing the top of the PVC does indeed seem to be the challenge. It's a box cooler inside a trash can.

Several pages ago someone else also did this (and cut holes in the side, wondering whether that was OK) -- you commented that their unicooler was now actually a box cooler.

User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:03 pm

bhearn wrote:
FIGJAM wrote:That's why we use a return air register instead of holes for the unicooler.
It keeps the water flowing to the inside while providing max air flow.
It looks like you will have air flowing OVER your pvc which will Not let the cooler work at its best.
... But sealing the top of the PVC does indeed seem to be the challenge. It's a box cooler inside a trash can.
Several pages ago someone else also did this (and cut holes in the side, wondering whether that was OK) -- you commented that their unicooler was now actually a box cooler.
Certainly the three openings, pads and return registers is the sure way of avoiding the issues bhearn is having. However, I do like the single side opening with a large continuous pad inside, as it provides Box Cooler performance inside a container, thereby providing the flexibility of installation like the unicooler, inside or outside a structure. BUT, and it's a big but, it adds more details to get right to get the performance one expects.

In another photo, he does show foam weather sealing on top of the PVC tube (with paper still on the adhesive in that shot), but the real issue is how to test if that is sealing or not. Once the lid sealing, pad-to-side gap and corner dry path are addressed, the temp drop measurement will provide a good clue if there is air leaking over the PVC past the weather sealing.

Figjam's design with three openings looks like more work (3x openings), but there are fewer details and easy to implement reliably.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:06 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

  • There's a lot went into Figjam's designs that make them effective, straight forward and relatively easy to build, at a low/known cost to build & known power requirements, providing on-playa: effectiveness, low-maintenance and reliability.
  • When you start deviating from those designs, you have to understand what you're doing as you can so easily end up neutering the performance...
  • If you want cooling on-playa and you like to play with designs, or you just want something to play with, fine.
  • If you NEED cooling on-playa (for whatever reason), then - first time around at least - stick to the playa-proven designs, components, builds, installation & setup.
  • If you thought you followed the design/components/installation/setup correctly, but you don't get the performance you expected, I'd strongly suggest you ASK about your build & setup in your structure, before you assume and start spending time & money on modifications, many, if not most of which, will worsen performance.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2018
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby BBadger » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:34 pm

herpderpleton wrote:Following up previous question and thanks again for your input. I'm trying to do a basic figjam build. This just arrived from amazon. Is this pump too small or not powerful enough?


Note: those pumps do work but sometimes (as I found) they don't have enough pressure if you have holes in your tubing that are too large. What will happen is that the holes close to the intake will release most of the water, and the other holes will not spray any. The 10-gauge wire FIGJAM uses is about 0.1" in diameter (2.54mm), or about 3/32" if you're drilling.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

bhearn
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm
Burning Since: 2015
Camp Name: Nosefish

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby bhearn » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:53 pm

BBadger wrote:Note: those pumps do work but sometimes (as I found) they don't have enough pressure if you have holes in your tubing that are too large. What will happen is that the holes close to the intake will release most of the water, and the other holes will not spray any. The 10-gauge wire FIGJAM uses is about 0.1" in diameter (2.54mm), or about 3/32" if you're drilling.


My pump (one of those) sounds like it's working hard to raise the water nearly 30", when the pads are installed and there is resistance. Is there a slightly more powerful pump anyone could recommend? (I did just re-drill my holes to 3/32"; they were 1/16".)

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:56 pm

The angle of the louvers on the register are steeper than the taper on the container.

So if you direct the drip line to the inside edge of the pad it will make up for the taper, and any water trying to escape will be caught by the louvers and redistributed on the pad.

The fan will also be helping pull water through the pad from the intake side.
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:59 pm

The higher the water level inside the reservoir the less the pump has to lift.
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
BBadger
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am
Burning Since: 2018
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby BBadger » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:05 pm

bhearn wrote:My pump (one of those) sounds like it's working hard to raise the water nearly 30", when the pads are installed and there is resistance. Is there a slightly more powerful pump anyone could recommend? (I did just re-drill my holes to 3/32"; they were 1/16".)


I've got a pump pretty much like that one, a 4.8W 12V pump and it's able to lift the water from my lower bucket to the top of the pad on my upper just fine, which is about the height you're attempting. It's no sprinkler, but it pours out all the holes which is fine for me.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.

bhearn
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm
Burning Since: 2015
Camp Name: Nosefish

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby bhearn » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:07 pm

Canoe wrote:So you've got to look at:
  • inadequate gap,
  • dry corners at the end,
  • possible leak past the lid to the interior negative pressure volume.


OK, I did everything you suggested, basically rebuilt the interior... It appears to help slightly. Before I had a 5.6° drop; now I have 7°. I'm out of time, so this will have to do. Hopefully the dry air will help enough.

Image

I have two layers of weatherstripping now, secured to the PVC and to the can with wire:

Image

And I set my 12v, 35ah battery on the lid to seal as strongly as possible. I think maybe that made the biggest difference.

So, maybe I still have a bad air path somewhere, I don't know.

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:15 pm

That looks MUCH better!!! 8)
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
Traveller in Time
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:52 am
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: Neon Light Alley (should be: Camp Envy)

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Traveller in Time » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:25 am

The cost of building something yourself is not the reward for building it.

The satisfaction it does work (even a little) is the reward.

Congratulations :D
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

User avatar
spacetime
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 am
Burning Since: 2014

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby spacetime » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:14 am

Traveller in Time wrote:The cost of building something yourself is not the reward for building it.

The satisfaction it does work (even a little) is the reward.

Congratulations :D


Ya, I believe we've been using my only semi-functional swamp cooler for the past two years. Yet, i swear it still worked quite well enough to be worthwhile. "There's always next year" to reinspect, refine and improve your design.

Good job on your determined build.

bhearn
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm
Burning Since: 2015
Camp Name: Nosefish

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby bhearn » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:53 am

Thanks guys!

User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:19 pm

Looks Great!
I like!

The dry air will help a lot. More importantly, you've taken the steps to avoid passing hot dusty air.
(and depending on RH and temps, 7 could easily be the max obtainable when you measured)
You've covered the key details, and you understand the 'why', in case you have to mod it on the playa.

Remember, if the cooler is installed on the outside of your structure, only the seal lined in green matters. If you have a seal issue, you can trim the orange lined seal down so the green seal gets more sealing force. You only need to compress the weatherstripping, not load the PVC. :wink:

(only detail I can't see, is air sneaking past the fan-side sidewall and the ends of the pad; you can adjust that on playa if it's an issue)

newseal.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Takokat
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:41 am
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Buddy System

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Takokat » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:03 am

I inherited this cooler from a lazy camper that not only never used it, but also decided to leave it behind at the end of the burn. I have it running at this point, but I am a little concerned about the amount of holes in the bucket.

Could this be an issue for its effectiveness?

Thinking I could just tape it on playa if it is not working to well, but I would rather just do a new bucket if need be.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Traveller in Time
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:52 am
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: Neon Light Alley (should be: Camp Envy)

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Traveller in Time » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:32 am

Takokat wrote:... to leave it behind
...


You are not serious I presume ?

Place the bucket in an oversized plastic bag, rise the bag over some holes if required. :D
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:01 am

Takokat wrote:I inherited this cooler from a lazy camper that not only never used it, but also decided to leave it behind at the end of the burn. I have it running at this point, but I am a little concerned about the amount of holes in the bucket.
Could this be an issue for its effectiveness?
Thinking I could just tape it on playa if it is not working to well, but I would rather just do a new bucket if need be.

Well, you can see how narrow the plastic is that's left. One looks broken already.
Large holes like that can be overwhelmed by a strong wind; as in, they don't limit incoming velocity well.
Curious why the wire comes out the lid instead of under the pad and out a hole. That's a risk for letting hot dusty air in there.
Curious what the pad is. The blue Duracool pads cool very well (fine water layer for large surface area and good dwell time), are self cleaning with the water flow and they last.
And, what fan is used? What pump is used? How is the irrigating line installed?

Given the cost of a bucket, I'd replace it.

I'm more concerned about the pad, fan, pump & line.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=280&p=1144374#pr1144150

Better take a look at the components and the build.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:36 am

I see you have buckets.

If you have a hole saw, it will take about 15 minutes to drill holes and swap everything over.

One row of 2" holes an inch apart just under the second ridge on the bucket is all you need.

Run the wire under the pad and out one of the holes.

Hard to tell, but it looks like they put some shade cloth around the pad to prevent leaking.

If it has blue pad in there, remove the cloth and make a tube of the pad the same size as the bottom of the bucket.

The pad won't be touching the holes and you'll get plenty of air flow. 8)
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

User avatar
spacetime
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 am
Burning Since: 2014

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby spacetime » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:49 am

Swamp cooler forensics courtesy canoe and figjam.

It is like Burning Man: CSI.

User avatar
FIGJAM
Posts: 9904
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby FIGJAM » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:56 am

Certified Swampcooler Intel??? :wink:
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

"If I can't find an answer, I'll create one!!!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me

Takokat
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:41 am
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Buddy System

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Takokat » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:59 am

Thanks for the detailed response guys.

I will definitely use a new bucket and cut proper holes and no shade cloth. I have the good pads, will sew the outside one together.

The pump is pretty heavy duty, but power is not an issue. The cord was coming out the top just for transportation.

Getting new iragation line too. This one has black line instead of the clear stuff. Plugged it in and it sprayed in just about every direction but down.

The lid is soft and comes off super easy. The output tube is sealed with epoxy, and I am running a dryer tube off of it.

The fan works. Was just going to run the wire out the lid. It seems to seal just fine around the wire because of how soft the plastic is.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
spacetime
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 am
Burning Since: 2014

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby spacetime » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:10 am

Managed to put hands on some chicken wire and after some clipping and scratched ankles ended up with this:

It seems like it is going to work. I did not remove any dura cool so, it is a bit more bunched up. However the wire now lifts the cooling pad much closer to the lid, holds it in from the edges by a fair bit and has the unexpected but somewhat desirable benefit of holding the drip line in place.

I haven't run it enough to get a sense for if it is thoroughly wetting the pads, and I wonder if I need to pull it apart and remove some pads, in case they are now too thick.

Curious about any additional feedback.


User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:26 pm

spacetime wrote:Managed to put hands on some chicken wire and after some clipping and scratched ankles ended up with this:

It seems like it is going to work. I did not remove any dura cool so, it is a bit more bunched up. However the wire now lifts the cooling pad much closer to the lid, holds it in from the edges by a fair bit and has the unexpected but somewhat desirable benefit of holding the drip line in place.

I haven't run it enough to get a sense for if it is thoroughly wetting the pads, and I wonder if I need to pull it apart and remove some pads, in case they are now too thick.

Curious about any additional feedback.


Go back a page and see how figjam's photos show his pads in a column. You want the outside of the pads spaced away from the bucket sides. From your photos, we can't tell if you've got that.
You may have scrunched up your pads with that wrap. Don't know.
You can see how figjam's inner pad is high enough to contact the lid of the bucket, so the air coming in the holes can't be sucked over the top of the pad and into the inner negative pressure volume, which would let hot dusty air in over the top of the pad and into your structure.
Figjam's tip is to make the pad wrap a square/vertical wrap of constant diameter equal to the bottom of the inside of the bucket. No problem if it is a little narrower. Issue if it is wider and reduces the gap between the pad and the side of the bucket. Big issue if the pad is close/tight to the sides/holes. Efficiency/capacity is greatly reduced and it may result in dry pad areas which will pass hot dusty air to the inside.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

User avatar
Canoe
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:01 pm

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Canoe » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:29 pm

Takokat wrote:Thanks for the detailed response guys.
I will definitely use a new bucket and cut proper holes and no shade cloth. I have the good pads, will sew the outside one together.
The pump is pretty heavy duty, but power is not an issue. The cord was coming out the top just for transportation.
Getting new iragation line too. This one has black line instead of the clear stuff. Plugged it in and it sprayed in just about every direction but down.
The lid is soft and comes off super easy. The output tube is sealed with epoxy, and I am running a dryer tube off of it.
The fan works. Was just going to run the wire out the lid. It seems to seal just fine around the wire because of how soft the plastic is.

The wires may cause a sealing issue that reduces capacity or even lets hot dusty air into your interior. Running them under the pad and out a hole eliminates that risk.
Looks like that pump is 110 VAC?
Fan is ??? No idea if it has the correct Pressure to do the job.
See the tip on the cylindrical pad wrap in the above post.
Jar Jar Sith Lord
.
Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

herpderpleton
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:52 pm
Burning Since: 2016

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby herpderpleton » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:02 am

Last minute question (doing my build then heading to the burn!):

I haven’t quite done the calcs for how long this should power my classic figjam swamp cooler config, but this is the battery I’ll be using.

[url]ExpertPower 12V 7 Amp EXP1270 Rechargeable Lead Acid Battery
[/url]

Questions:
1. Can this battery be recharged on the playa? Is Connecting this to a car battery a big no no?
2. How long should this battery if powering:
[url]PartsCollection Delta Ultra Strong 12CM DC12V Cooling Fan 200CFM
[/url]

And

[url]mountain ark Mini Submersible Water Pump 240L/H 63 Gallon Amphibious Pump For Aquarium Garden Pond Fall Hydroponic Fountains
[/url]


Thanks!!!

User avatar
Traveller in Time
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:52 am
Burning Since: 2020
Camp Name: Neon Light Alley (should be: Camp Envy)

Re: cooling your tent or van

Postby Traveller in Time » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:27 am

You can charge a 12 V battery using a car dynamo.
Just make sure both have the same Voltage, the external battery is only connected to the charging cables and the car is started prior to connecting the external battery.
Only charge for brief periods (less then 10 minutes) as your external battery may get overloaded. (explosion danger) Check external battery temperature until half an hour after charging, this should not rise much during or after charging.
This procedure will eventually ruin your external battery.
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will


Return to “Keeping Cool”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest