Better way

Swamp Coolers, Cooler Management, Dry Ice, Misting Systems, and just plain how to beat the heat.
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Traveller in Time
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Re: Better way

Postby Traveller in Time » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:39 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote:Just to clarify something. At no point did I ever say this unit was as efficient in the water usage or ice usage as a swamp cooler ....that was not the point. .


There are signs you are suggesting your ice cold disperser is a "Better way".

Though as it seems to be limited to a commercial version as the example . . . then why making any fuzz about it?

Well just have the fun with it as you like :D
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



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GreyCoyote
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Re: Better way

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:45 pm

Admiral Fukkit wrote:It was a promotion


Well... we had to tell him SOMETHING when we found-out he was UnJon's love-child with Janet Reno...
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

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GreyCoyote
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Re: Better way

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:50 pm

This is a technology I plan to mess with for next year: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icyball

Thats about as Burnery as you can get.
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:59 pm

Nice... I like it.
Dad talks about using some of the ammonia system is back in the seabees. He was in charge of keeping the beer cold in the officers bar in Okinawa. I love the old systems.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:02 pm

Unjohn Isn't that guy like 150 years old now I thought he was dead..... Carefull he always pisses on your leg. Or that just maybe me.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:09 pm

I've got a half-completed design based on magnetic cooling. Using heat-pipes as thermal diodes, it has significantly fewer moving parts and lower energy costs. While it requires attention to detail, it doesn't require precision machining. I found a source for the magnet material (in the Netherlands?), sufficient temp change but much lower cost than the high performance materials, but I lost their link...
Can't afford the materials right now anyways.

(Thanks for the reminder. There goes x hours tonight...)


"How cool are your balls?" (That's what she said...)
Last edited by Canoe on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Token
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Re: Better way

Postby Token » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:18 pm

Ha! I had braces in for 2 years as an old man to fix the TMJ. Sucked fiercely.

I've been now lugging the retainer at night.

That big meal right after you take em out ... fucking priceless.

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Traveller in Time wrote:
Mozy F Bonz wrote:Just to clarify something. At no point did I ever say this unit was as efficient in the water usage or ice usage as a swamp cooler ....that was not the point. .


There are signs you are suggesting your ice cold disperser is a "Better way".

Though as it seems to be limited to a commercial version as the example . . . then why making any fuzz about it?

Well just have the fun with it as you like :D


Made you look and it and it started a conversation about what I really had a problem with ( contamination of swamp coolers ) didn't it. I find it odd that you don't seem to of ever been to the burn but you give a lot of opinions to burners about what they should do. The commercial units go all the way up to $8000+ and cool larger spaces.
Swamp coolers can't be used in high humidity areas this is a low cost efficient way of providing cooling without having the cost of large compressor units.

I surmise your avatar is a telescope lens and that's why you're a traveler in time. I could be wrong. If so please tell us what you look at through the telescope. I'm not trying to be mean or snarky I'm genuinely asking.

Back to my point ....Well When you see a drunk frat boy pissing on the side of somebody's tent you can start to understand my trepidation with the buckets..... being a target for them.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:22 pm

Token wrote:Ha! I had braces in for 2 years as an old man to fix the TMJ. Sucked fiercely.

I've been now lugging the retainer at night.

That big meal right after you take em out ... fucking priceless.


At the end of three years fucking can't wait probably January hoping sooner.
~

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GreyCoyote
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Re: Better way

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:27 pm

Canoe: got links? Or at least a primer? This sounds interesting...
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

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Token
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Re: Better way

Postby Token » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:31 pm

The magnetic cooling tech came from lasers and other point cooling science.

Didn't know it scaled so I'm tickled too.

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:40 pm

Magnetic Refrigeration
Magnetic Brayton Cycle
magnetocaloric material

But the "practical" implementations are crazy fluid pumps, large and expensive. There're a few youtubes on them.
The material is not cheap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_refrigeration
Last edited by Canoe on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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GreyCoyote
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Re: Better way

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:43 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote:Unjohn Isn't that guy like 150 years old now I thought he was dead..... Carefull he always pisses on your leg. Or that just maybe me.


Yup. Thats the dude. Had his sorry ass pegged (METAPHORICALLY) as about 200, but who is counting. That guy is the Keith Richards of the BM community.

Funny thing about about leg-pissing: decades ago LBJ was president. He was out at his hunting ranch in Texas and the SS was following him, stomping around and scaring all the game away. So around lunch time LBJ needs to tap a kidney and walks out into the brush. A pair of SS men follow. So ol' LBJ whips it out and cuts loose a stream.

"Mr. President, you are urinating on my leg".

"Thats right, son. I'm the President. I can do that".

I was going somewhere with this but cant seem to remember where... :mrgreen:

Btw: with Admiral Fukkit as my witness, every morning for the last three Burns Unjon would walk into my camp in order to better steal some breakfast. Every damn time I'd ask him "Aint you dead yet"?
"To sum up my compassion level, I think we should feed the unwanted animals to the homeless. Or visa versa. Too much attention and money is spent on both."
(A Beautiful Mind)

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Traveller in Time
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Re: Better way

Postby Traveller in Time » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:11 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote: I find it odd that you don't seem to of ever been to the burn but you give a lot of opinions to burners about what they should do.

I am weird indeed.
Feel somehow connected familiar.
Sitting on a beach in '89 creating a 'community'. A contained fire on the beach was allowed for BBQ.
Attending is way out of reach some advice/confusion is all I can offer.


Mozy F Bonz wrote: Made you look and it and it started a conversation about what I really had a problem with ( contamination of swamp coolers ) didn't it.

No conversation on these boards has been this active for days :D

Mozy F Bonz wrote: I surmise your avatar is a telescope lens and that's why you're a traveler in time. I could be wrong. If so please tell us what you look at through the telescope. I'm not trying to be mean or snarky I'm genuinely asking.

It is the clockface in the living room :D
Dreaming a temporary world improving the default world



Not expressing yourself but embracing all other expressions is The Challenge




...I can make anything I can imagine . . . I just can't make _some_ things happen



Have some Free will

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:22 pm

Cool. I won't be here long. I have other things to do.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:42 pm

Canoe wrote:Magnetic Refrigeration
Magnetic Brayton Cycle
magnetocaloric material

But the "practical" implementations are crazy fluid pumps, large and expensive. There're a few youtubes on them.
The material is not cheap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_refrigeration


That's the fun part we don't build these things because it's going to make us money and change the world. Builders build. I guess it's a burner thing also.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:13 pm

As a prototype, I figure I can build a mini-bar fridge, say a cubic foot interior, for $300 in materials, some recycled materials, plus the cost of a low-end vacuum pump as a tool (not a component). And run on a 9 VDC battery. Could be controlled by a 555 timer or an Arduino.
This is peanuts.

Plus the cost of the magnetocaloric material.
This is not peanuts.

It's easy to put together a design that will work on paper, but it has to be something that can be built, operate and be maintained.

On the practical side, no idea on BTU yet. Want to build it anyway.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:23 pm

Yeah that's me spec it out only to find a cost of $20,000 for something I could spend a lot less to just buy.
But what fun is there in that? more fun to build something that no one else has.
~

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some seeing eye
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Re: Better way

Postby some seeing eye » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:42 pm

Heat of vaporization >> heat of fusion. More than 5x. :D

The ideal method is the hexayurt which is coupled to the temperature of the shaded playa. Theoretically you could build a ground source heat exchanger. The playa grid kids found that the buried electrical cables can be run at higher their normal current rating because the playa cools them.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:07 pm

We're not allowed.
Apart from shielding the playa inside the yurt from the sun and heated-air energy, thereby getting its cooling heat-sink during the day, then rolling the rug down for the night so it doesn't suck the heat out of us.
And pegs/rebar/lag-screws, and a small hole (that you refill) for a canister for your meds so they're at a stable temperature.

But you can use the (typical) daily abundance of heat energy.
We should be able to build a solar collector that provides the heat for driving an RV fridge...
And why does that have to be a fridge.
A water reservoir can store heat or 'cool'. Distribution through water flow or heat-pipes.

The way a swamp-cooler utilizes that heat for producing a large volume of cooled air means it's an easy source for bulk replacing hot air inside a structure, for an astounding low amount of electrical energy.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 am
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:14 pm

Well it's the phase transition in the evaporation of a liquid to a vapor... is what causes the cooling effect. Humidity is more of a factor than heat. Lick your arm then blow on it. It's The evaporation that does the cooling work. That's what freezes up propane bottles it's the propane flashing from a liquid to a gas. That's how freon in an AC works it flashes off from liquid to a gas The compressor compressor is a back into a liquid. Then it starts all over again. Phase transition.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:31 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote:Well it's the phase transition in the evaporation of a liquid to a vapor... is what causes the cooling effect. Humidity is more of a factor than heat...

Which it does by absorbing heat.
Latent evaporation is limited by humidity.
What's new?
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 am
Burning Since: 1999

Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:52 pm

No heat is not the main factor in evaporative cooling. Evaporation is the factor. Low humidity and The more surface area you can create for evaporation the more cooling you get. Adding or using Heat is not part of it.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:59 pm

Correct on low humidity and surface area (and add in dwell time), but they determine the rate and limit: latent evaporation occurs by absorbing heat, which is why there's a temperature drop. :D
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 am
Burning Since: 1999

Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:02 pm

Yeah wet bulb dry bulb temperatures we are still talking about liquid flashing off to a vapor that's what causes the cooling effect
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:12 pm

It's the phase transition science that were using to run all these cooling systems today. I've seen it snow in a coldbox. And yes heat does transfer that's why we use it for cooling. Freon is used because it absorbs so much heat in that phase transition. Closed systems don't rely on humility.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:13 pm

yup
By absorbing heat energy.
Easy for people to forget what's behind it, when what they see is the practical result.
I love teaching new Burners to spray the water up and let the now finer (and cooler) drops fall back on them. The look of delight, to puzzlement, to delight is priceless.

You should see people try to wrap their head around heat-pipes and latent evaporative pressure, thinking that if populated with water, the pipe's vacuum must make its water boil at 80C, or 50C, or 25C or even 2C. :lol:

Then explain that with some heat pipes, they don't use water, and their working substance is not a liquid, but a solid, at room temperature.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 am
Burning Since: 1999

Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:18 pm

But more heat energy doesn't equal more cooling.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:24 pm

Let me say that a different way adding heat energy to a cooler pad will not increase the cooler pads efficiency adding surface area to create more evaporation will.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:29 pm

Absolutely correct.
You can't force it by adding more.
Ambient intake temperature and humidity determine the limit you can reach with sufficient surface area and dwell time.

Well, technically, one could heat the incoming air (you know some idiot is going to) so it evaporates more hence cools more, but the net result... hurting me with the LOLing.

What would be fun!
For the somewhat larger planes that fly in that people sleep on, build a swamp-cooler with an appropriate rain/piss shield, then use that as the cool-water source for a water-to-water heat exchanger to go closed loop circulated into the aircraft interior for recirculated air cooling.
Then upgrade it to do the heat removal from the interior with heat-pipes, so there's no electricity required for closed loop circulation. The bucket would have to be up off the ground too, so harder to piss into! :)
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.


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