Better way

Swamp Coolers, Cooler Management, Dry Ice, Misting Systems, and just plain how to beat the heat.
Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:43 pm

Yep watch the guys at the five and dime put a two shade structures over the top of their swamp coolers on the roof. They had no effect on the incoming ambient air Temperature. They said ...they just didn't understand why it didn't work. I just smiled told them that's nice.
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FIGJAM
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Re: Better way

Postby FIGJAM » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:03 am

You guys may be smarter than me, but how cool do you want your water?

The water in my bucket cooler is consistently around 58 degrees.

So could you use the cooler to cool your water, then run that cool water through your gizmo?

Then it wouldn't matter if it gets pissed in, ice melted, or grey watered.

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Admiral Fukkit
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Re: Better way

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:19 am

One of my favorite things is that people engineer things like this just for the sport of it. That's Burning Man.

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:05 am

Don't take it personal figment it's a fine swap cooler you have ....works very well out there. The issue is mine and my experience with people pissing in shitting wherever they want out there.

The thermal mass of the swamp cooler water wouldn't keep up with the heat transfer from the cooling coil. You would just have a bucket of hot water in no time. That's why it needs ice. I'm installing a larger system into a mutant vehicle. To give me air conditioning without running an actual compressor or motor to drive it. It's the 35° drop on high that I find so attractive about the system. " this guy at burning man on time gave me a ride in his mutant vehicle and I had goosebumps I was so cold when I got out of it ... I mean it was freezing in there."

One piece I left out I have a commercial ice machine and an unending supply of ice. With ice cold drain the water that comes off of it. Technically it's a very un efficient way to use electricity for cooling. The upside is I got all the ice the Machine can make.
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Admiral Fukkit
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Re: Better way

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am

I've never seen a bucket cooler create a bucket of hot water... unless someone takes a big steaming piss in it! Preventing that certainly has merit!!
One of my issues with evap coolers is the water consumption. I can buy gas on-playa and run a Honda generator and run an air conditioner and be colder than any evap cooler, without worrying about my water supply. And you were in my camper (capt. goddammit) in '07, you remember how cold it was!

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 am

Yes absolutely true. What fig was asking is could you use the water in the swamp cooler to transfer cool through the coil of the ice cooler the answer was no.

No I get it the AC in the camper yeah.

The system I'm proposing to use in the mutant vehicle would run silent other than The blower fan noise. And because I'm using boat vent fans in line with the vent duct. It also reduces noise. I'm also thinking about using this system to blow cool air out of the front of my bar top. Kind of like an airline air vent in an airplane right at your bar stool. Originally I was just going to throw a AC unit in and duct that into the bar. But then you have the noise of the compressor and the AC unit and.....well lets just say it's not the nice environment i'm trying to create in the bar. My new bar is an open space, and a chill space with lots of little surprises that makes you want to come back. Additional generators and compressor noise is just not what I want to add to it . But I have said too much. Nothing to see here move along move along.....
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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 am

But water consumption is your issue. Those using them don't have an issue because they use such a modest amount of water, it's easy to budget that supply for the week.

And unlike an A/C that has to produce super chilled air to beat down the heat inside a structure when you return to it (think adding a thimble of ice water to a sink of hot water), the swamp-cooler sidesteps that by simply doing a bulk wholesale replacement of the inside hot dusty stale air with fresh cool humidified dust-free air (think drain the sink and fill it with cool water). Quickly surrounding you with cool air, absorbing and exhausting heat gained from the structure's heat soak while you were gone, and easily exhausting ongoing heat gain through the walls; you can work out the analogies to the sink. So assuming you're not sitting at camp all day, but are going out and exploring BRC, you typically only need to run a swamp-cooler for four to six hours a day.
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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:59 am

Mozy F Bonz wrote:Yes absolutely true. What fig was asking is could you use the water in the swamp cooler to transfer cool through the coil of the ice cooler the answer was no. ...

Not sure on that.
You can use the 'waste' cooled air to pre-chill the closed loop return with an air-to-water heat-exchanger. Counter-flow would be best but cross-flow is easy to build. Then the loop routes through the swamp-cooler reservoir (which can be built for any water volume capacity) before feeding back to your cooling coil. You could even use the pad irrigating pump output through a tube-in-tube counter-flow heat-exchanger to maximize performance. And the swamp-cooler is always replenishing the cool to that reservoir.
I'd want to see numbers
I'd want to build it to see how it does.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
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... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Admiral Fukkit
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Re: Better way

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:06 am

Larger scale evap cooling does use a lot of water.

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:12 am

Try it that's what cooling towers are. You know before we blew air across the coil too cool systems. but I can't have a swamp cooler sloshing around in the mutant vehicle spilling water everywhere. Ice cooler is kind of a close system. They Fly with them. Water only gets out of it when you want it to. With the size of the ice chess I'm thinking about using with the amount of ice. I think I can get eight hours during the full heat of the day out of it in the mutant vehicle. Part of the key in the system is using a seven day ice chest or something that is highly insulated. The longer the ice can normally stay in the chest under normal usage The more Thermal mass you can retain. Efficiency is not so much a factor for me. It's the instant performance of 35° across the coil.
~

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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:18 am

But Just take a quick look how big a cooling tower is compared to what it's cooling before you do you build.
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some seeing eye
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Re: Better way

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:47 am

This isn't a Turing test, is it?

If you have an ice machine, a generator and an unlimited supply of water and fuel, in a dust-free space - you might be better making snow cones.

Ice takes 144 BTU/pound to melt. So a 14,000 BTU/hour RV AC equivalent on your MV will consume 100 pounds of ice an hour. It's closed and insulated, right?

No AC is needed for night. In day a little shade and air movement misting and people not expending themselves can make a day MV comfortable without AC.
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GreyCoyote
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Re: Better way

Postby GreyCoyote » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:22 am

970 btu/lb is what the liquid->gas phase change of water takes. So as far as sheer heat removal is concerned, evap wins every time, but thats not always the target criteria.

If I had an MV with big flame effects, I'd seriously consider exploiting the boiling propanes cooling effect. Because, you know... we need to keep BM potentially lethal. :)

Edited to add: 950 btu/lb at playa elevation (3800 feet)
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:06 pm

some seeing eye wrote:This isn't a Turing test, is it?

If you have an ice machine, a generator and an unlimited supply of water and fuel, in a dust-free space - you might be better making snow cones.


No AC is needed for night. In day a little shade and air movement misting and people not expending themselves can make a day MV comfortable without AC.


Shut up I don't need you outing all my secrets. :D

Shhhh....Think bio diesel heaters disguised as jet car motors for nighttime heat. The warmth and the smell of fries. My power is also a bio diesel. Now that's mutant vehicle I can walk behind.
now shut up quit outing my ideas.

You guys can do the math if you want.... but I've stood next to some of these cooling towers and their fucking huge compared to the coil and a fan that replace them.
~

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:07 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote:... With the size of the ice chess I'm thinking about using with the amount of ice. I think I can get eight hours during the full heat of the day out of it in the mutant vehicle. Part of the key in the system is using a seven day ice chest or something that is highly insulated. The longer the ice can normally stay in the chest under normal usage The more Thermal mass you can retain. Efficiency is not so much a factor for me. It's the instant performance of 35° across the coil.

I've always wondered about a three chambered cooler:
  • ice/frozen area: target -5C
  • chilled: target 3C
  • dry ice source

How could dry ice be used as your heat absorption source?
Some food grade Propylene Glycol in your water in the the closed loop?
Maybe an ice/water bath is the go-between for the closed loop and dry ice?
Highly insulated chamber for the dry ice with an adjustable exposure to the ice/water bath?
A second loop, open, pumping the water from the ice/water bath through a tube-in-tube so you've got the ensured performance of counter-flow heat-exchanger? You could even have its 12 VDC pump controlled by a sensor on the TIT's chilled closed-loop output.

If you have an insulated air path inside the bar, that would be wonderfully targeted distribution of chilled air. Glued rigid foam would be perfect. Build a box, feed it, tap it. Cheap, easy , efficient.

An extremely fine droplet mist nozzle could work for targeted or wholesale cooling?
Cheap & easy compared to what you're talking about, but no where near as much fun to build.

p.s. look at the Endless Breeze fan. Provided people get the in/out side correct (and some came assembled backwards), they're amazing.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Canoe
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Re: Better way

Postby Canoe » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:19 pm

Mozy F Bonz wrote:... but I can't have a swamp cooler sloshing around in the mutant vehicle spilling water everywhere. ...

No not have sloshing around, not hard to plumb a remote evaporator that has a limited water volume regulated by an overflow returning to a reservoir.
"My favorite people are the people of the dessert", said Lawrence as he picked up his fork.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:22 pm

This is a ground up build and everything is manufactured and made specially for the vehicle. The Ice bin we designed for this is a vacuum chamber insulated double walled. Doesn't have a lid it has a bun for filling. It helps to have access to computers, software and a big welding shop. I think the use of water and not some kind of antifreeze fluid solution or a type of it....is so you don't have a waste management issue if it's clean water you can simply sprinkle it on the ground. Or use it in mister on the vehicle itself. Ok that it ....my want to share is overriding my need to keep this a secret so I'm gonna stop now.
~

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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:53 pm

As sharp as you guys are with all this. I'm surprised nobody picked up on the reference to triple point cells in my sig line.

High pressure phases of water and all it's triple points I find interesting.

15 phases of ice now discuss



just kidding I have work to do
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FIGJAM
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Re: Better way

Postby FIGJAM » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:42 pm

Didn't take it personally.

Just wondered if my suggestion would work.

Maybe there will be 1000s of these on the playa in 7 years. :wink:
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Never ....take it and run with it. Years of dealing and working with swamp coolers growing up. I have no interest in them anymore. Just to messy for me but that's just me.


Dad: Son get up there on that roof and change those pads put in a new pump and clean the cooler for me would you.

Teen Me: fuck why do I get all the dirty jobs.
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:06 pm

Just to clarify
Discourse shouldn't bother anybody and it doesn't bother me.
Honestly I don't know .....seems like the cooling towers were huge when they were used for cooling like that.
Sounds like a fun DIY project.
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FIGJAM
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Re: Better way

Postby FIGJAM » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:09 pm

Most of the pre 60s government building in phoenix are still using cooling towers.

One house in our hood had one.

Big 10' tall wooden louvered gizmo with 4 waterfalls running continuously.

Again, early 60s.

Such were the days of my youth. 8)
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Admiral Fukkit
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Re: Better way

Postby Admiral Fukkit » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:13 pm

Isn't it kinda late for a mutant vehicle to be still under wraps and not already out on the playa?

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:16 pm

Yeah that's the cooling tower. somewhere on here there's a picture of people swimming in one at the gypsum plant out in black rock.
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:20 pm

The mutant vehicle is years from completion. Time allotment for us to work on it is very small. And it's not necessarily being built for the playa. I won't give DMV pre-information about this vehicle. I am building it whether they let it out there or not. Father-son project. Wish I could show some the stuff off the website.
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:21 pm

Rear tires are 17 inch funny car slicks.
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Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:16 pm

Might work ....big tall evaporation cooling tower/pee station/ tent air conditioning. Long as you keep your evap/cooling water/pee strained filtered and separate from your ambient air you should be fine.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:52 am

Canoe wrote:
Mozy F Bonz wrote:... With the size of the ice chess I'm thinking about using with the amount of ice. I think I can get eight hours during the full heat of the day out of it in the mutant vehicle. Part of the key in the system is using a seven day ice chest or something that is highly insulated. The longer the ice can normally stay in the chest under normal usage The more Thermal mass you can retain. Efficiency is not so much a factor for me. It's the instant performance of 35° across the coil.

I've always wondered about a three chambered cooler:
  • ice/frozen area: target -5C
  • chilled: target 3C
  • dry ice source

How could dry ice be used as your heat absorption source?
Some food grade Propylene Glycol in your water in the the closed loop?
Maybe an ice/water bath is the go-between for the closed loop and dry ice?
Highly insulated chamber for the dry ice with an adjustable exposure to the ice/water bath?
A second loop, open, pumping the water from the ice/water bath through a tube-in-tube so you've got the ensured performance of counter-flow heat-exchanger? You could even have its 12 VDC pump controlled by a sensor on the TIT's chilled closed-loop output.

If you have an insulated air path inside the bar, that would be wonderfully targeted distribution of chilled air. Glued rigid foam would be perfect. Build a box, feed it, tap it. Cheap, easy , efficient.

An extremely fine droplet mist nozzle could work for targeted or wholesale cooling?
Cheap & easy compared to what you're talking about, but no where near as much fun to build.

p.s. look at the Endless Breeze fan. Provided people get the in/out side correct (and some came assembled backwards), they're amazing.


Yeah the insulated path for the air would be inside PVC inside the carved foam front of the bar. I'm incorporating a lot of the carved foam into the bar build. The ice bin will actually be under the bar and can also use ice drain from the other ice bins. Foam it's Much lighter to transport and you can get some really cool stuff carved out of it. I'm always hesitant to talk about ideas I'm working on here. Years past I've mentioned things and they magically showed up in art pieces the next year. I try to think of it as like minds think a like. But eplaya was clearly searched. for information and ideas. I mention something that I was designing based on something that we've used before to broadcast sound out to other Soundsystems. Sound barges liked the idea so they started coming in asking about it. It was easy technology so they figured it out. Now it's commonly used on some of the sound barges out there. Not my technologies existing technologies that I adopted.

I do love the discourse though.
~

Mozy F Bonz
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Re: Better way

Postby Mozy F Bonz » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:02 pm

OK I will end on this for the lurkers that are out there. Don't be afraid these people don't bite well maybe a little bit but it doesn't hurt. It's a virtual reality bite. I had a gripe about swamp bucket contamination. But I didn't take it into swamp bucket thread I created a new thread and eased into my gripe. I chose something that would bring the most staunch critics out to defend the buckets. The reality is is because humidity is so low in the desert. evaporation is the easiest way to cool anything out there. I use a sarong some people use a bucket. Sorry if it seemed like I was baiting people into conversation..... because I was. For the last five years I have been taking care of my dad for the last two years he has been basically a zombie no intelligent conversations anymore. My 18 hour days with him consist of me Emptying his catheter bag, changing his diapers, spoon feeding him .... and given him baths. We don't warehouse our elderly so I am here until the end. Going back to it now.

Thank you for the discourse.


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The door is still open Token come by anytime.
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Traveller in Time
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Re: Better way

Postby Traveller in Time » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:29 pm

Thank you for the diversion :D
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