
and fyi I don't pay camp dues
It's amazing to me that 99% of the responses disagree with you, yet you cling to the idea that you were utterly blameless and that someone else was a "robber baron". Personally, if I get this much disagreement I might want to look deeply at what happened and see if my actions played a role in the outcome.dontflipmejack wrote:It sounds like this board is full of robber baron/camp minions, must be nice to be in the "in group" did your camp daddies give you extra ice cream to "cool the burn???"
Thanks....I did get carried away with the talk about suing the borg. I take the "decomodification" principle seriously, maybe there was a time when others did too but I think the $$$ went to some people's heads.trilobyte wrote:You're not so much the bad guy as the bonehead. Looking to the org to regulate tens of thousands of camps because you made a bad decision is kind of ridiculous. Even if they would and could make all camps do what you ask, who's to stop you from making bad decisions then? You don't need Burning Man to add another layer of regulation and enforcement, you need to ask the right questions before you give people your money and make better decisions in life.
If you want transparency and possibly control on how the money is spent in your camp, either insist on it upfront (you know, before you give them your money), or better yet DO IT YOURSELF. That's right, run your own camp. You'd be surprised at how many camps were founded on the idea that somebody felt someone else was doing it wrong or they could do it better.
But hey, maybe you're right? Hell, that's what separates the prophets from the squabbling masses. Still, I think you're just talking from a position of someone who has never actually had to manage anything.dontflipmejack wrote:It sounds like this board is full of robber baron/camp minions, must be nice to be in the "in group" did your camp daddies give you extra ice cream to "cool the burn???"
Awesome! Put your money where your mouth is. We'll see how your project works out. I don't have high hopes considering how these silly notions of true socialism have (not) worked in the real world. I'm thinking you'll quickly become disillusioned: trying to justify the cost of time you spend, or the labor you've invested; explaining how you're padding budgets in case something goes wrong; determining "fair" reimbursement of spare funds based on camp use, merit, labor, contribution, etc.I'm starting my own camp next year. Like the Socialist Republic of BRC or something like that. And unlike many here I wont profiteer from others and shame on anyone who does. If we get $1k or $5k or $10k in dues it will be spent on the GREATER GOOD or returned, I have a REAl job and I dont need to earn $$ through deceptive means.
Again shame on all of you who think it's okay to profit from Burning Man!
Eric, I understand what you're saying, I really do and you have some valid points BUT Burning Man is definitely not about lets go out and make a killing profit wise and screw everyone else that gets in my way (that would be called the "rat race" we ALL know so well. Mine was a camp of have's and have nots, the luxury "coaches" the team players were riding in made that clear, and I confirmed from several sources that had no reason to lie that camp resources paid for them. Yes, it ticked me off. No I dont hate rich people just people who lie and take advantage of others, that really pissed me off.It's amazing to me that 99% of the responses disagree with you, yet you cling to the idea that you were utterly blameless and that someone else was a "robber baron". Personally, if I get this much disagreement I might want to look deeply at what happened and see if my actions played a role in the outcome.
Sadly, you came in determined that you were victimized and that it's everyone elses' fault because you were simply blameless, and seem to be incapable of listening to what anyone says, other than the fact that we disagree & are therefor part of some sort of "in group" of... fuck if I know. My camp doesn't charge dues so I'm not sure how I'm either one of your fantasy "robber barons" or "minions". Of course, my camp doesn't really provide anything except space & a basic shade structure, so I don't expect anything.
It's time to grow a pair & start planning for next year. This year was fucked for you, no amount of whinging on the internet is going to change that. I think you should honestly plan on camping solo next year (or in a group with no dues/ no shared infrastructure) & see what it actually costs for one person to camp out there. Pay for your own water, food, shelter, shade, booze, sound, mixers, chairs, sunshower, water for sunshower, transportation for you & your entire camp-setup to & from the playa... everything. Then pay to store the stuff for 2014.
You're right, that is why you have to keep things SIMPLE, or a least try to. The generators and maze of wires really needs to go (in our camp anyway). I think everything but the sound system can be powered by alernate means.........or at the very least simplified. Still thinking about that one.Awesome! Put your money where your mouth is. We'll see how your project works out. I don't have high hopes considering how these silly notions of true socialism have (not) worked in the real world. I'm thinking you'll quickly become disillusioned: trying to justify the cost of time you spend, or the labor you've invested; explaining how you're padding budgets in case something goes wrong; determining "fair" reimbursement of spare funds based on camp use, merit, labor, contribution, etc.
Or maybe you'll go the route of all those naive folk who thought that they could create an ideal society without sugardaddies... and abuse your power, practice nepotism, foster corruption, or simply return to the old ways you thought you could do better than.
Good luck dude! Really, if it turns out let us know.
I understand what you're saying probably better than anyone here, I'm a frequent visitor to Las Vegas and their nightclubs. Does $40 to get into a club sound reasonable??? Or $14 coors lights?? And thats low end stuff.BBadger wrote:You should be more concerned that the price you paid was worth it to you rather than what that money was spent on, or what might have been the profit.
It's like being outraged that convenient stores pay pennies on the dollar for fountain drink syrup and water. Was the price of the drink worth it to you? That's what matters.
Concentrate on the value you gain from things. I think you'll have a lot less stress, and feel a lot more content.
Sure does sound reasonable, because it is all relative. I get drinks for free at Burning Man; is that reasonable? Anyway, if you're actually dropping that kind of cash, you haven't hit that threshold where going out on a night on the town isn't worth the price to you. If that were the case you'd vote with your feet. However, you're obviously getting some value out of it if you are actually participating in the transaction.dontflipmejack wrote:I understand what you're saying probably better than anyone here, I'm a frequent visitor to Las Vegas and their nightclubs. Does $40 to get into a club sound reasonable??? Or $14 coors lights?? And thats low end stuff.
And yet the casinos are still very profitable. Vegas casinos don't need to learn anything from Burning Man. They understand people at Vegas better than anyone and that's why the strip is the way it is. They've even figured out that they don't need to charge dirt-cheap prices on food/booze anymore to just get people in the house for gambling. Even Subways on the strip doesn't honor $5-footlongs.I think the casinos in Vegas could learn a few things from BM. For example walk through a casino sometime and look at peoples faces, does it look like they're having a good time?? Not really. IMO In general, the idea in Vegas or at Burning Man is to have FUN. Whether that be by enjoying the art, socializing, ect, ect.
dontflipmejack wrote:I understand what you're saying probably better than anyone here, I'm a frequent visitor to Las Vegas and their nightclubs. Does $40 to get into a club sound reasonable??? Or $14 coors lights?? And thats low end stuff.BBadger wrote:You should be more concerned that the price you paid was worth it to you rather than what that money was spent on, or what might have been the profit.
It's like being outraged that convenient stores pay pennies on the dollar for fountain drink syrup and water. Was the price of the drink worth it to you? That's what matters.
Concentrate on the value you gain from things. I think you'll have a lot less stress, and feel a lot more content.
I think the casinos in Vegas could learn a few things from BM. For example walk through a casino sometime and look at peoples faces, does it look like they're having a good time?? Not really. IMO In general, the idea in Vegas or at Burning Man is to have FUN. Whether that be by enjoying the art, socializing, ect, ect.
On the otherhand we dont want BM to be more like Vegas than it already is!! And I'm serious that maybe a little bit more needs to be done about the robber baron types, exactly what I dont know
BBadger wrote:Awesome! Put your money where your mouth is. We'll see how your project works out. I don't have high hopes considering how these silly notions of true socialism have (not) worked in the real world.
Psst, BBadger buddy... you're committing the standard American act of confusing Socialism & Communism (one of my major pet peeves about our shitty education system)...BBadger wrote:And yet here you are embracing something entirely different. The total irony of your suggestion of a "socialist" type of camp is that socialism is first and foremost about forced conformance. You're forced to contribute to the system so that you receive the same benefits from the system. Sure there are some benefits with regards to "fairness" (ideally) and resource distribution (if that is your prerogative), but ultimately, it comes at the cost of your own choices.
This tells me all I need to know. You chose the wrong camp and you paid the price. (no pun intended)dontflipmejack wrote:
Oh yeah, it was almost a relief when the borg truck played free bird during the burn.......every other song in our camp had a "nigger" or f**k in it. It just clouds your thinking. IMO
Sorry, but that's not entirely accurate either. Virtually all the nations you mention are social market economies and have some (or a lot of) social democratic history, but no truly socialist episodes in the last 60 years. Capitalism reigned, with some added social safety net. Neighboring nations that claimed socialism de facto only had mock democracy, with restrictive societies that you attribute to communism only.Eric wrote: Examples of full or partial socialist states from the last 60 years: Sweden, Germany (west), France, England, Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Japan... In the US, Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, 401k & Pension Plans, FEMA, general infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges), police & fire depts, education... all have socialist antecedents in the idea that the community contributes to the betterment of all.
I get what you mean, but I mean what I said--but I'll definitely acknowledge that my second statement was not entirely correct. Communism to me is is just the extreme manifestation of socialism, and that was probably the term I should've used in the second statement. As for socialism, don't get me wrong, I think socialism has its place. I have definitely benefited from it. Many countries, as you have listed, implement socialist policies to the greater good--some to an extreme that I'd rather not participate in.Eric wrote:BBadger wrote:Awesome! Put your money where your mouth is. We'll see how your project works out. I don't have high hopes considering how these silly notions of true socialism have (not) worked in the real world.Psst, BBadger buddy... you're committing the standard American act of confusing Socialism & Communism (one of my major pet peeves about our shitty education system)...BBadger wrote:And yet here you are embracing something entirely different. The total irony of your suggestion of a "socialist" type of camp is that socialism is first and foremost about forced conformance. You're forced to contribute to the system so that you receive the same benefits from the system. Sure there are some benefits with regards to "fairness" (ideally) and resource distribution (if that is your prerogative), but ultimately, it comes at the cost of your own choices.
Socialism is where people pay higher taxes to contribute to higher benefits for all (health, education, welfare, etc) while being allowed to own & run private businesses & corporations and having a Democratic system of government (you know, opposition parties, the population wanting them in power, etc). In a socialist economy the state is concerned about the general welfare, but does not usually control production (this varies by country & industry) or individual actions. Even with the high taxes you can still make high wages - if you earn $10mil a year you still keep between $1-3mil after taxes, which is only chump change to the greedy. In communism the state decides what you get paid, and sets all prices.
Even the U.S. system of capitalism has MANY characteristics of socialism (the earned income tax credit - i.e. poor people who work are rewarded for having kids on tax day, grants for college - free governemnt money far surpases private scholarships by several fold, and stuff like section 8 housing and medicaid but I'm not exactly sure how those work but they are huge programs, not to mention SSI, ect ect.Psst, BBadger buddy... you're committing the standard American act of confusing Socialism & Communism (one of my major pet peeves about our shitty education system)...
Socialism is where people pay higher taxes to contribute to higher benefits for all (health, education, welfare, etc) while being allowed to own & run private businesses & corporations and having a Democratic system of government (you know, opposition parties, the population wanting them in power, etc). In a socialist economy the state is concerned about the general welfare, but does not usually control production (this varies by country & industry) or individual actions. Even with the high taxes you can still make high wages - if you earn $10mil a year you still keep between $1-3mil after taxes, which is only chump change to the greedy. In communism the state decides what you get paid, and sets all prices.
Examples of full or partial socialist states from the last 60 years: Sweden, Germany (west), France, England, Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Japan... In the US, Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, 401k & Pension Plans, FEMA, general infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges), police & fire depts, education... all have socialist antecedents in the idea that the community contributes to the betterment of all.
In many ways socialism works much better than the US system of capitalism, as you can tell by health costs, education levels, and the general welfare of the population. (the current economic crisis is not due to socialism but the same factors that destroyed ours, compiled with heavy lending to countries in the EU that weren't able to sustain that level of debt).
Communism is where the state controls everything & you're "forced to contribute to the system so the you receive benefits from the system". Almost always a one-party system, limited rights of the citizens, lots of corruption & inefficiency. Communism only works on a small scale (like a kibbutz or a commune), it's a total failure of a system for a country as there are no incentives to do better. Communism is an economic and political system, socialism is primarily an economic one.
No it's not the end of the story. It certainly can be theirs. They're the ones running the show, organizing things, filing paperwork, bringing in equipment, arriving early to setup, etc. Maybe it's not a single person, maybe it's a group. Maybe even a large group. Maybe even the entire camp. However, there is ownership. There's a power structure. People can be kicked out; members must pay dues to stay in the camp; members must coordinate with camp operators for resources such as space, etc.dontflipmejack wrote:I also think part of the problem is SOME people view a camp as THEIRS - you need to stop right there, sure the camp might have been your idea, and you helped plan/build the camp in years XXX BUT that doesn't mean the camp is YOURS. Camps should belong to their members (at that moment) - end of story, non negotiable.
Who cares? Don't like it, you can tell the ass poking inside your tent. Vote with your feet. The owners of camps can run their camps however they damn well please.Thats where the profit/business aspect of camps screws things up. IMO The business of business is to make $$$$$, take the profit out and you no longer have a business. Robber Baron Camp Leader can go franchise a Starbucks if he wants a business, but keep it off the Playa.
I'm certain that they often contribute more money than the official dues.percussivepaul wrote:...but mostly by the camp leads, who often contribute the same dues as campers.