Ebike regulations

[Soul Patch]

So... This was my 6th Burn, and first burn with an ebike. I arrived with 3 camp mates, and waited hours on gate road. When we reached gate our vehicle was searched, and our trailer was searched. My ebike was located in the rear of the trailer. I was asked how big my battery was, I informed gate crew that it was 1000 watts. I was told that no battery bigger than 750 watts was allowed. We were asked to leave Burning Man and do not bring the battery back. I asked if they could take the battery and let us through gate, I was told by a rather irate gate crew that they had taken many batteries, that it had become a nightmare and they stopped taking them and just turned people away. I asked where the rules state the allowed battery size and was told that it was in the Survival Guide. I pulled out the Survival Guide and looked for ebike rules. And there are no rules about battery size. I tried to argue that point and was told that it must conform to Nevada state law. I had no way to look at Nevada state law, so we complied and left playa. Fortunately we had friends that work in Gerlach and left the battery with them. While we were in Gerlach I was able to go online and check Nevada state law on ebikes. This is what it states.

Must conform to the definition of “electric bicycle” under Nevada state law:
Generally recognized as a bicycle
2-3 wheels
Working pedals
Electric motor, up to 750 watts
Top rated speed up to 20 mph* with 170 lbs operator
Does not include mopeds.
There is no mention of battery size. So we are required to know Nevada state regulations, but the gate crew enforcing those regulations are not.

I am not an expert on ebikes, so correct if I'm wrong, larger batteries = more miles, larger motors = more speed.
The rules clearly state motor size, not battery size.

I understand why ebike rules need to be in place. During the burn I witnessed several ebike accidents, ebikes doing 3 or 4 times the 5mph speed limit, some with nothing but a small head light and tail light. My opinion is that a great many of burners who were on ebikes this year do not ride bikes often, may not own a bike on the outside, so have little to no experience with bikes at all.
The ORG must come up with some clearly stated rules for ebikes, as next year and the years after will see the ebike numbers on Playa explode.

[Token]

Ah, my friend, you have been blessed with the Gate Biggus Dickus and by the sounds of it you got the Biggus Dickus Supreme! (BDS)

If only I could have been there to fuck with them!

So let me say right off the bat, mistakes were made on both sides.

First: the gate BDS didn’t know how to enforce the rule. You are correct in the power of the motor is the limiting factor, not the size of the battery.

Second: you my friend gave a number of 1000W for the “battery size”, which makes no sense, as the battery stores energy and the appropriate units are Joules, Watt-hour, Amp-Hour - it needs a time dimension.

Now, if your bike indeed has a motor or two whose total Power output is 1000W, the fiasco ended up with the correct resolution in the end, but kind of ass-backwards in the execution.

So, lessons learned:

Gate BDS needs better training

Bring an e-bike with less than 750W power delivered by the motor, or just fuck with them and say it is 1 horsepower. That will get their sequin g-string bunched up in a wad.

Finally, always say 500W to stupid questions and you’re good, no matter the specs. What are they gonna do? Lookup the make and model of your bike to verify?

[Soul Patch]

Token,
Thanks for the reply. And the education. I realize now I should have been more informed on the rules and the ebike conversion kit I purchased for my old playa bike. The sticker on the battery states (48V 20Ah 0-1000 watts) this is where I got the 1000 watt rating. Of course, next burn they wont find my bike. This is also the first time in 6 burns that I had to deal with any BDS. I have much respect for the gate crew and the shit they must deal with daily.

[Elorrum]

Battery size is like gas tank size. “How big is your gas tank?” says nothing about the power of your vehicle motor. A higher voltage battery does power a more powerful motor, but they are different things.

Ebike motor wattage ratings and specs are confusing. A 500 watt electric bicycle conversion kit may be listed as a 500 watt kit, yet a closer inspection could show that the kit comes with a 48V battery and a 20 amp peak controller. The math shows us that this kit is in fact capable of putting out 48V x 20A=960 watts, essentially a 1,000 watt kit.

Nevada’s law limits ebike motor size to 750 watts and speed to 20 mph.

I think we are finding that the vehicle speed is the real problem in BRC.

[Token]

Token,
Thanks for the reply. And the education. I realize now I should have been more informed on the rules and the ebike conversion kit I purchased for my old playa bike. The sticker on the battery states (48V 20Ah 0-1000 watts) this is where I got the 1000 watt rating. Of course, next burn they wont find my bike. This is also the first time in 6 burns that I had to deal with any BDS. I have much respect for the gate crew and the shit they must deal with daily.

That’s the silly of the situation.

48V x 20Ah = 960Wh ~ 1000Wh. Notice the hour : power over time = energy.

It has didly-squat to do with the Power rating of your motor, only that it will be less than 1000W. Otherwise the battery would fail prematurely.

There are 3 classes of e-bikes

1,2, and 3 oh so creatively.

Class 1 & 2 are regulated to 20mph max and can be 250-500W motors.

Class 3 is 28Mph with 750W motors.

Nevada is weird with their regulations. Class 2 for top speed but Class 3 for power. Go figure.

[gaminwench]

My opinion is that there are a lot of campers riding e-bikes that are inexperienced with them (looking at you, PnP camps, but that's a different discussion).

An e-bike is a powered vehicle with a learning curve; would you put someone on a dirt bike with no training? Same thing.

[unjonharley]

Salem OR. electric mobility speed is limited to 8 mph. My chair runs 5mph. The E bikes are fast enough to get a person in traffic killed. 2019 I asked two on segways to slow down. Was promply told to get fucked. MVD needs to lic # these things.

[Skuzzy61]

I think any non-human powered conveyance should have to be registered, including pics, before the burn. At the gate, the registration should be handed to the gate crew. Registration should require a fee to be paid as well.

Exceptions for handicap mobility devices.

Anything capable of exceeding 10MPH should be banned.

I abhor trying to control behavior via restrictions and regulations, but as long as there are people who have absolutely no respect for others or for the technology they are abusing, then is there really any other choice?

[BBadger]

A blanket speed limit would probably be the best method to address ebikes and all other (future) methods of transportation on playa. Probably the most egalitarian too.

Such a policy would need to be enforced, sadly, by law enforcement much like speeding out of gate. Maybe some high-visibility incidents will put fear into participants, much like seeing police searching vehicles on the way into the city because of speeding.

[ygmir]

A blanket speed limit would probably be the best method to address ebikes and all other (future) methods of transportation on playa. Probably the most egalitarian too.

Such a policy would need to be enforced, sadly, by law enforcement much like speeding out of gate. Maybe some high-visibility incidents will put fear into participants, much like seeing police searching vehicles on the way into the city because of speeding.

I think the flaw is enforcement. considering how spread out and non linear things are and people flow, it'd take an army of "enforcers", to make any real sort of impact. LE would not willingly do it, IMHO, because it'd be an ORG rule, and they'd not want to deter from what they do out there now. So then, it'd be Rangers, or a new "traffic" dept. and I can see a lot of push back on that, let alone a problem staffing it. And, how to actually enforce it? ORG volunteers/employees don't really have power to arrest, except for citizens arrest, and no one is going to do that. And otherwise, citizens are not going to care if they get bull horns and yell "slow down", knowing they don't have the power to physically stop or detain them...(this opinion based on my understanding of LE vs private security).

[BBadger]

I think the flaw is enforcement. considering how spread out and non linear things are and people flow, it'd take an army of "enforcers", to make any real sort of impact. LE would not willingly do it, IMHO, because it'd be an ORG rule, and they'd not want to deter from what they do out there now. So then, it'd be Rangers, or a new "traffic" dept. and I can see a lot of push back on that, let alone a problem staffing it. And, how to actually enforce it? ORG volunteers/employees don't really have power to arrest, except for citizens arrest, and no one is going to do that. And otherwise, citizens are not going to care if they get bull horns and yell "slow down", knowing they don't have the power to physically stop or detain them...(this opinion based on my understanding of LE vs private security).

What you bring up does make it very difficult to enforce. We don't actually want more LE around to keep people in check especially in the zones where it'd most matter like on busy roads. Then imagine them chasing down people or causing other problems related to actual enforcement.

I can't really imagine LE wanting to confiscate bikes or issue citations for people who aren't actually driving registered vehicles.

Maybe if this continues to be a problem it's just going to resort in a total ban on unregistered ebikes and all the headaches and slow-ups of inspections at the gate.

[Skuzzy61]

A blanket speed limit would probably be the best method to address ebikes and all other (future) methods of transportation on playa. Probably the most egalitarian too.

Such a policy would need to be enforced, sadly, by law enforcement much like speeding out of gate. Maybe some high-visibility incidents will put fear into participants, much like seeing police searching vehicles on the way into the city because of speeding.

I think enforcement, once they get into the event, is almost impossible. Sort of like putting out the fire after everything is burned.

I would like to see a try at registration of these vehicles. It would be an opportunity to let people know there is a speed limit, and they can be ejected from the event for violating it. Even with spotty enforcement it might serve to make some think before they abuse it.

Someone shows up at the gate with an unregistered vehicle, then turn them away.

I really think we should not have to wait until someone was killed before something is done about it. Something needs to be done as the problem is just going to get worse.

[Token]

Education

That’s the only viable way.

Maybe a dash of registration, a good spot for the education.

Look into the past for inspiration.

The JOTS were a literal shit-show for a time until everyone was educated.

BED was a thing for reasons.

Moop was a thing until it wasn’t.

Video was almost non-existent while registration was a thing. Then cellphones happened and it went to pot.

Registration is probably the simplest path … provides targeted education opportunity and also lets you spot the concierge camps doing bulk regs.

[Popeye]

I'm afraid Token is right, registration is the easy way to go. But as usual the devil is in the details.
I would think that the primary user of the registered Ebike would be a disabled person- I really hate that term but let's go with it for the time being.
I'm 72, not disabled and cannot get a placard for a disabled vehicle, nor do I want to. However I don't get around as well as I used to. The heat effects me more, I'm slower. This means that I plan to bring an Ebike that I can use on and off Playa. This also means that I have to do an Oliver Twist to some Org functionary, "please sir can I have..." for special consideration and get a somewhat arbitrary answer. They don't know me, I have no documentation and it goes against everything in my life to ask for an exception.
I see the need but this new requirement really pisses me off. Perhaps everyone under 50 needs to show disability to ride an ebike? I needed to be 16 before I could drive a car, maybe 50 or 60 before driving an E bike? No one else can ride an ebike? Far from perfect but might be an improvement.

[Skuzzy61]

Popeye, registration would be for all non-human powered conveyances. The purpose of registration would be to let people know there are rules when operating any conveyance on the Playa, as well as state laws they must comply to. Age or physical limits have nothing to do with it.

Better to do it before the event, rather than at the gate or after they get into the event.

Like Token said, it also affords a chance to catch camps which are providing these things at the event.

Charging a registration fee would cover the costs of the logistics involved with managing/deploying the registration process.

[lucky420]

Education

That’s the only viable way.

Maybe a dash of registration, a good spot for the education.

Look into the past for inspiration.

The JOTS were a literal shit-show for a time until everyone was educated.

BED was a thing for reasons.

Moop was a thing until it wasn’t.

Video was almost non-existent while registration was a thing. Then cellphones happened and it went to pot.

Registration is probably the simplest path … provides targeted education opportunity and also lets you spot the concierge camps doing bulk regs.

Moop is a thing again

[Popeye]

Popeye, registration would be for all non-human powered conveyances. The purpose of registration would be to let people know there are rules when operating any conveyance on the Playa, as well as state laws they must comply to. Age or physical limits have nothing to do with it.

Better to do it before the event, rather than at the gate or after they get into the event.

Like Token said, it also affords a chance to catch camps which are providing these things at the event.

Charging a registration fee would cover the costs of the logistics involved with managing/deploying the registration process.

You talk like you are the person setting it up.
I doubt it will work out the way, you suggest. Every human powered conveyance? Won't happen, 1984 all over again.

[Skuzzy61]

Popeye, registration would be for all non-human powered conveyances. The purpose of registration would be to let people know there are rules when operating any conveyance on the Playa, as well as state laws they must comply to. Age or physical limits have nothing to do with it.

Better to do it before the event, rather than at the gate or after they get into the event.

Like Token said, it also affords a chance to catch camps which are providing these things at the event.

Charging a registration fee would cover the costs of the logistics involved with managing/deploying the registration process.

You talk like you are the person setting it up.
I doubt it will work out the way, you suggest. Every human powered conveyance? Won't happen, 1984 all over again.

I do not get what your heartburn is about it. If you have a better option to get these dangerous devices under control, then please share. Doing nothing is not going to solve the problem and it is a problem.

If you do not think it will work, then why?

P.S. It's every NON-human powered conveyance. Not sure, but hybrids might slide in between that one.

[M F Bonz]

Well I think what I was trying to demonstrate with the gasoline scooters.
The scooters at the time in 2011 …They weren’t allowing them either.
But that had no effect on them being there.

They don’t blend in like an E bike does.
So it would be much harder with the E bikes to be spotted.

People won’t even read that they need to register those bikes. They will just bring them.

You would need and entirely new infrastructure devoted only to this type of transportation problem.

Currently they’re having problems with volunteers at the gate, Exodus perimeter, and all kinds of positions…from what I read.

People would need training for all this Infrastructure. And then the cost… and what that does to tickets. If they have too many incidents that can also have effect with their event insurance. Also increasing ticket price.

So who’s gonna enforce it?
Going to use Radar guns?
Another cost for the tickets.


If you could talk law-enforcement into it. More enforcement would increase law-enforcement cost and also ticket price.

Law enforcement won’t be giving 20-25 mph tickets for bicycles
..the time it takes for each one with people who are not Carrying IDs. Some From other countries.
They just won’t do it. That would take them away from what they think they need to be doing out there.

It’s a pipe dream at best.

I think a lot of these first timers were at renegade burns.

Were I saw a motorhome pulling a boat on a trailer pulling a person on a off-road skateboard like a water ski.
They used my Tent like a pylon ..they come out of the city and would make a turnaround At my camp and then back into the city full blast again on motorcycles and ATVs just about anything you could drive.
I was okay with it it cracked me up.
But it’s not okay in Black Rock City.

The few Fuck it up for everybody else. Just making it their own right?
I’ll let Bump know they’re gonna have to work some things out before we go back.

Glad no one got hurt …but This stuff is boring.


Sings as he walks out the door.
“The speed police are inside of my head…The speed police are inside of my head…The speed police are going to get me woohoo hoo…”

[Skuzzy61]

Trying to solve the issue once in the event would be impossible. I am not sure I would want them to try. I think the BMORG would run into some legal issues in doing so. If the E-thing fits the parameters outlined by the state, then would the BMORG have any authority to do anything about them, once in the event?

As far as costs for the registration and any infrastructure which would go along with that, charge a registration fee to cover it. It is on the burner to bring the registration papers with the ticket. No paper, then no entrance if they are hauling a non-human powered conveyance.

As the gate is mostly manned by volunteers, just have them show up a few minutes beforehand at a class to learn about their responsibilities while manning the gate.


I see it as the best chance to inform people about proper use of these things at the event. Whether it helps or not is in the wind. I cannot see a downside to trying it.

[M F Bonz]

It’s okay. I get it. I just think you’re tilting at windmills. Knock your self out. Everyone has their own windmills.
I know I do.
But I think the burn has more problems than just E bikes.


…..”my last year at the burn, as I walked around the city, I noticed that people were in a hurry, heads down, no eye contact, no offer of interaction, heading for a perceived entertainment.”

Now they ride e-bikes.

You are seeing that in Saturation. The old builder burners are staying home.
Sorry. ….i’m rooting for you.

[Skuzzy61]

Nah, I am pretty much done with it now. It is okay to talk about things which might help, but at the end of the day, none of it makes any difference.

I am just an engineer who has been engineering solutions to problems for over 50 years and rather enjoy it. None of it has to come to fruition in order for me to put it aside and move on.

[M F Bonz]

I definitely get that.

Just let it run its course.
Lets see where this goes.
Keep your head on a pivot and don’t get run down.

I’m more interested in building things.
But that’s just me.

[Wigwam]

I brought an e-Trike for the first time this year, with solar panels to recharge the battery if I needed to. I can set my max speed to anything I want, and set it at 5 mph. That did not, and will never prevent someone from peddling faster than 5 mph. It is not the vehicle that is non-compliant, it is the rider. I see people on human powered bikes, vehicles of all types regularly going in excess of 5 mph. I don't want to see e-bikes and e-trikes banned. I want people to act as a community to keep people aware of safety and to act appropriately. I know, this is a dream, but isn't this supposed to be different from the default world where people act without conscience?

[M F Bonz]

I agree… you should be able to have and use your trike.
Lots of people do. This really isn’t that hard … but it really does seem to be for some people.


It’s my opinion that ….Some people seem to have lost those basic abilities/skills somehow…somewhere … for some reason. Maybe they never had them. I don’t know. Today’s world I guess.

I’m watching for more data. I’m sure there is going to be plenty.
And then a clearer picture of what happened will come out.

That will give a direction on how to fix the rocket bike problem.
The burn is over ..so it’s not a problem now. We will see where this goes over the next four months.

They should run the live video feed back and count the rocket bikes rocketing across the center of the city. That would be an interesting number to see.

I like walking the city. You see more of it that way. Someone taught me that a long time ago. She always walked the streets around her camp. I really enjoyed it. Some of the best times I’ve had ..I walked.

But I don’t think I can do that anymore. A motorcycle accident years ago is making that difficult in recent years.
Transportation is a must for me.

I’m building something for that…. It’s not a bike. It’s a low and slow “stop sign”.
Smiles~

Solutions?
Speed bumps? Camp placed street pass gate barricades? Strategically placed water trucks around the city?
I’m sorry …did I say that out loud?
Snickers~

[Ano]

I'd be super disappointed if my E-trike ended up banned because of the activities of turnkey turkeys who ride e-bikes like douchebags.

Couple of things to chew on -

Most of those speeders are already riding bikes that shouldn't be there. Go to any pile of similar looking e-bikes with similar decorations piled at Mayan Warrior and check them. Most of them openly display that they are 1000w bikes. As for how they got there, good question.

I can cap my speed at 5mph. This pearl-clutching about e-bike speeding over 5 has got to calm down a bit because something like 90% of the people I see when I'm capped at 5mph are casually blowing past me. The real average speed out there is more like 7-8mph and I honestly feel safe riding through city streets at 8-10 depending on traffic. It's really easy to slow down and obviously I do when needed, but straight up, tons of people already cruise between 7 - 10 through the streets.

We should probably have a real conversation about speed and what to do though, because I think we all agree that the sparkleponies with saucer-sized pupils blasting down F street at 8-9am are problems. I just don't think a blanket ban is needed, moreso that enforcement of already existing rules should take place (I guarantee a lot of those speeders are on 1000w's based on the huge piles I saw of 1000w e-bikes from obvious turnkeys this year) combined with a realistic reassessment of speed limits for bikes in the city.

And good ol fashioned public shaming does seem to work, I megaphoned a good number of "SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!"s off 8:00 and H and got many a folk to slow down.

[nickfarr]

As the gate is mostly manned by volunteers, just have them show up a few minutes beforehand at a class to learn about their responsibilities while manning the gate.

Hi, I'm one of those volunteers! Can confirm that we have one training shift working the lanes AND that each shift presents new and different challenges, depending on the day.

We were told about the 750W requirement, which I had to inform my lead was a power rating of the bike's motor. The battery was irrelevant and batteries aren't measured in Watts anyway. (They're typically measured in Watt-Hours and sometimes on these bikes in Amp-Hours)

Bear in mind, this requirement came down on us because someone in the event told them to. I don't think it was a part of the initial planning.

When we found e-bikes, nobody had any idea how powerful the motor was and nobody had any idea where to look. Basically, if it looked like someone strapped a battery on a regular bike, it was fine. If it looked like a slimmed down motorcycle, we sent it to D-Lot.

The BMP is going to have to do a huge information lift if they expect people to register their e-bike. I'm generally for it, but it'll make the wait at gate just that much longer.

[some seeing eye]

As the gate is mostly manned by volunteers, just have them show up a few minutes beforehand at a class to learn about their responsibilities while manning the gate.

Hi, I'm one of those volunteers! Can confirm that we have one training shift working the lanes AND that each shift presents new and different challenges, depending on the day.

We were told about the 750W requirement, which I had to inform my lead was a power rating of the bike's motor. The battery was irrelevant and batteries aren't measured in Watts anyway. (They're typically measured in Watt-Hours and sometimes on these bikes in Amp-Hours)

Bear in mind, this requirement came down on us because someone in the event told them to. I don't think it was a part of the initial planning.

When we found e-bikes, nobody had any idea how powerful the motor was and nobody had any idea where to look. Basically, if it looked like someone strapped a battery on a regular bike, it was fine. If it looked like a slimmed down motorcycle, we sent it to D-Lot.

The BMP is going to have to do a huge information lift if they expect people to register their e-bike. I'm generally for it, but it'll make the wait at gate just that much longer.

Mr Nickfar has an important point, you cannot inspect in quality. For a meditation on quality, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (really about philosophy too) and some Edwards Deming. In quality, there is an idea of customer-supplier and expectations which is also relevant.

Every year there are different fads in BRC. I say, let a 10,000 megaphones bloom. It will of course cause unintended side effects. But a few years of people megaphoning you to "slow down" is a good tactic. It would not be hard and cost nothing to have the Propaganda/Information Ministry and Cultural Sculpture Department to find a name for e-bike miscreants, like we have a name for MOOP.

[Skuzzy61]

Well crap, I said I was done, but I guess not.

You are moving points to the worst place you can. Registration solves some problems and can help to reduce the load at the gate.

1) Registration is a chance to provide information about motor watt limits and speed limits. It can serve to educate the ignorant. This, in of itself, would bring meaning to the users who are hollering at the idiots to slow down, possibly making it more effective. The idiots can no longer say they did not know.

2) Registration requiring pictures of the e-thing, which the user would have to present at the gate, would help the gate folks in quickly identifying said e-thing. Requiring the pictures would afford the registration folks a chance to deny the device, if the device had some type of dangerous mod.

3) Charging a registration fee would cover the cost of the registration team. It would also quickly filter out those who only had a casual interest in bringing an e-thing.

None of this is going to stop idiots from being idiots, but it might help identify those who are idiots, versus those who are just ignorant. Hopefully the ignorant will learn and be more responsible in the use of these devices.

As far as nicks go, I like EWads. Not to be confused with EWoks, their irresponsible furry brethren.

[M F Bonz]

Well crap, I said I was done, but I guess not.
……..

No you’re good. This is exactly who you should be talking to.
This is where the data is.
And an analytical mind is what pulls out the data. Ask the questions.