Nother ???

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unjonharley
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Nother ???

Post by unjonharley » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:00 pm

Why should I "not" put this super slick man made oil in my engine that has ran 80k¿¿

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Post by MikeVDS » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:27 pm

You're thinking about going synthetic? I have heard reasons but I do not know any for fact. So let's say a few and maybe someone can confirm or deny any who actually know what they are talking about. I do know that most engines that you open up have black sludge in places. I have been told that synthetic is a decent solvent and breaks that sludge free. Chunks of that stuff suddenly getting into your engine that took years to build up in an out of the way place is bad. Also I've heard that mixing regular oil with synthetic, which a normal oil change will leave in your engine, will cause a break down on one of them which can cause problems. I don't know if this is true. I might do some research into this, but hopefully someone else on here does it for me before I go googling. :twisted:

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Post by AntiM » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:59 am

mylarry says it can be done, start at 50/50 or buy a 50/50 synth blend and stage it over gradually over several oil changes.

he ran a fleet where the vehicles averaged 100k+, so he knows what worked for the big chevy/gmc and dodge SUVs.

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Post by gyre » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:12 am

You can mix synthetics.
The quality varies.
Redline has been recommended to me.
They have a good tech line and can give you info for your application.
You should go syn in the rear and tranny first.

Suggestion to me not to go cheaper than redline.
Biggest advantage is startup lube and survival under very high heat.
Have an overheat and the oil paid for itself.
It can increase fuel mileage and power as well.
A friend runs the oil at 260 degrees and gets 10% increase in power.

If you are talking about slick 50 or one of those whizbang ones,
I don't know anything useful.

I would go 7000 on a change and change filter once at 3500 miles.

There are some very high end oils.
I have some 0 weight, $15-20 quart.
I hear motul is good.
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Post by skygod » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:20 am

I put redline in my VW Syncro Westy tranny. No problems for a cpl years. When I took it to the dealer for routine maintenance, they switched it back.
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:59 am

skygod wrote:I put redline in my VW Syncro Westy tranny. No problems for a cpl years. When I took it to the dealer for routine maintenance, they switched it back.


I was wanting to put it into the 90 VW water cooled..It has 70 000 on a new engine..I have kept up on oil changes so don't expect a lot of sluag and don't mind the added cost..

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Post by lapeer20m » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:19 pm

Never use synthetic automobile oil like mobile 1 in a motorcycle. Motorcycle clutches are surrounded in oil, synthetic oil is so slippery it'll make your clutch slip, then you can buy new clutch plates and learn how to install them.

another downside of mobile 1 is that if your car leaks even a small amount of oil with conventional motor oil, it'll leak much faster with mobil 1. Mobil 1 is excelelnt oil, but it's also really good at finding leaks!

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Post by Toolmaker » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:29 pm

I will never go with synthetic again. I lost an engine switching from regular to synthetic about 11 years ago. The only additive I use in my oil is Lucas. My 90 C1500 Truck has 280k miles and has only had regular oil and Lucas done when necessary. My 95 S10 also a 4.3 V6 has 190k .. same story, and both vehicles have good oil pressure when I use them. I don't use either too much anymore except to drive them once a month and maintain them as needed.

A side note about additives in general.. I had tried a "leak stop" additive a long time ago to fix a radiator leak.. this also fucked up an engine, since than I just braze and repair the radiator when necessary.

Some of these synthetics and additives may have changed their formulas and gotten better but I can't afford to take the chance. I only have 4 vehicles but I can't afford to replace engines on any of em.
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Post by AntiM » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:37 pm

Our gas mileage went up dramatically, both in the 95 Jeep and the 05 Trailblazer. Used Prolong in the Jeep once and it really jumped the miles, but the cost of the product wasn't worth it in the long run. I think my brother went back to standard, and he says it still runs great. Trailblazer is happy as a clam on synth, but we rarely use it for anything but long hauls towing a trailer (hmmmm ... wonder where?), so it stays at very low miles. The Scion is so new it is still on the dealer's dime concerning oil changes.

Larry also put in some fancy air filters ... I'll have to ask him what brand. They made a noticeable difference too. But then, we're talking about a guy who records each tank of gas to monitor the mileage!

YMMV, eh?

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Post by skygod » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:09 pm

Toolmaker wrote: My 90 C1500 Truck has 280k miles
Holy Cow! You"ve been to the moon and are on your way back!
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Preheating Oil/Non-Water Based Antifreeze

Post by gyre » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:07 pm

I understand there was a problem with additives in Mobil 1 interfering with gaskets in european cars when it was first introduced.
What problem did you have, Toolmaker?

An aircooled engine should particularly benefit from a good synthetic.

I had the fan fail on a race engine and the temperature shot off the chart several times with no detectable damage.
Stories abound like this.

What is done is filtering the larger particles and impurities from oil and the results can penetrate thinner gaps.
You have to decide if you are losing too much oil to justify the benefits.
There is a range of types.
I strongly recommend getting technical advice.
There may be a version that works with bike clutches.
Amsoil atf was recommended to me over redline (just barely) but for everything else this transmission shop recommended redline or better.
I have found redline for $7 a quart.

I am planning on switching over to Evans non-water antifreeze.

I would probably use some grade of castrol if I wanted something cheaper than redline, but there is a difference in quality.

I am advised that even with a light synthetic redline, engines are still sensitive to oil viscosity at startup.
Preheating oil before startup can extend engine life quite dramatically.
I intend to start using block heaters year round when I can.
It makes far more difference in cold weather ( under 80 degrees).
The lack of an extended warmup period should use far less energy than is required to run the heater.


A lot of technical information is available from sae and road and track has published quite a bit also.

http://store.sae.org/


This is the technical link for redline.
They will give you specific advice for your engine and desires.
I have used water wetter in water based antifreeze with good results.
I always use distilled water only.

http://www.redlineoil.com/tech.asp
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Air Filters

Post by gyre » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:13 am

An air filter can only affect your gas mileage if it is undersized to start with.
It is primarily a factor in high performance engines where the air consumption has been increased over stock.
A better filter may take longer to clog.
I prefer going to a larger paper filter.
The best medical grade filters are paper.
I have a large k & n on one car but if it had a stock engine, it would have no effect except longer life.
Many high performance filters do not filter well.
Caution must be used with oiled filters.
The oil can wreck sensors.
If anyone needs to build a good air filter for the home or turn the ac into a high grade filter,
I can tell you how.
Carbon filters can even take chemicals out of the air.

There are a lot of tests of fancy filters done in the performance magazines and there is only a performance gain if the filter is seriously under size or the engine has been modified.
Even then the gain is usually 10%.
Normal driving shouldn't be affected in any case.
The larger filters allow for massive power increases to be possible.
Then they become a factor but they can't cause the power increase.
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Post by AntiM » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:56 am

The K&N added ~ 2 mpg for the trailblazer. Honestly, larry marked the place in his little mileage folder. That's not much, but on a beast of an SUV, it is something. The synth kicked it up another one or two mpg also. So no, I should not have used dramatically, perhaps, noticeably would have been a better descriptor.

But doesn't every gallon count on long hauls while towing? If you can do better, should you?

C'mon Penn and Teller, do a Bullshit episode on this so I can bask in the gospel truth of filters and additives and oils. Although Gyre is doing a bang up job.

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Post by gyre » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:22 am

IF your mileage improves with the filter and the last testing was done with a clean filter, then the original filter was too small or there was something out of whack with the engine, causing it to demand more air to match the fuel mixture.
If you have a worn or dirty mass air sensor, it can cause cars to run on default which is a richer mixture than is needed usually.
Adding a little airflow could help there too.
It's entirely possible it was too restrictive.
Is the exhaust stock?

However, mileage is notoriously variable and is heavily affected by driving style and the placebo effect.
There is also humidity, temperature, fuel, wind, traffic, and so on.
You have to test for a long time to be sure of anything.
And this presumes that nothing else changed including tires, engine tuning, etc.
A tv station recently 'proved' that those magnets you put on your fuel line improve your mileage.
In this case, the testing wasn't blind testing, much less double blind.
It could easily have been done that way, but it wasn't.
The magnet scams predate cars.
(There is some medical research with magnets-early, but not the same thing)
If they aren't using it on race cars or banning it's use, it usually is nonsense.
I can say definitively that a better air filter won't hurt anything, as long as it filters to the same degree.
I can also say definitively that if you removed the original air filter housing and have an exposed k & n, that it's wire mesh will not always stop a bolt from penetrating it and being pulled through the turns in the tubing and into the engine, totally destroying the supercharger and the top and bottom of a very expensive engine.
I recommend welded stainless mesh for this purpose.

One of the best things that can be done for mileage is a dwell advance on the dash, if you are sharp enough to use it safely.
This allows you to advance the timing to the very edge of detonation as some engine controls do.
Two stage controls can be set for uphill and downhill or loaded and unloaded.
You should also make sure brakes are working properly and not dragging.
This can be harder to tell than it sounds.
You may also consider a new computer for a car.
Upgraded computers can be fine tuned in many ways.
The computer on my ford works well, but it assumes that fuel pressure is always perfect.
If it is not....
It also does not adjust for humidity.
If you have a ford truck, the computer is less sophisticated than the mustang version.
It is quite a step up for little money.
A modern aftermarket one can be tuned from a laptop and maxed for mileage or power.
The factory setting is always a compromise.

Tweaking your aerodynamics is also a productive area.
Trucks especially benefit from this.
I want to add an airdam below the radiator that goes so low I have to make it of something sacrificial.
I'm open to suggestions for the type material.
You can do a coast down test to measure any change with and without the change.
Is the bottom of your truck flat?
If not, adding a bellypan will help.
Minimal airflow needed through the radiator usually helps too.

You should also check your vehicles response to high octane fuel.
If you have any improvement, check the numbers to see if it saves you money.
It doesn't take much change to justify it.

In theory, using evans cooling and a synthetic allows you to push temperatures and mixtures running an engine leaner.
I met someone using a dyno who does this and thinks he can do it safely.
He was reaching 700 hp in a 350 ci.
I don't know what else he was doing though.
There is much potential there though.

FYI, most newer cars need a transmission cooler as the engine is already running hotter for fuel injection than is good for the transmission.(auto)
The person I knew who was running the oil so hot used a separate radiator for the water and oil, both computer controlled to keep them close to the edge.
There is a very sophisticated fan control for diesel pickups intended to keep them as hot as possible safely.
Diesels are very sensitive to running too cold.

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Post by AntiM » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:46 am

Stock exhaust as far as I know. The 05 chevy trailblazer was purchased used in 05, the local saturn dealership is pretty reliable about making sure everything is checked, clean and new, but there could be a variable there. We don't use the dealer for maintenance though, larry uses the guys who kept the armadillo fleet running into the triple digits for him. 100k+ annually on each vehicle. Plus they let him park the semi behind their building since he can't bring a commercial vehicle into the neighborhood up here. We like them for that if nothing else!

We do note the difference between town driving, freeway, and towing. Some of the folks who have tried caravaning with us get frustrated, because larry keeps the speed low when towing the trailer, 55 to 65 across I-80. Not just for mileage, that's safety too, trailers and high speeds aren't always a good mix. Push the suv up past 65 loaded or not, and the fuel efficiency bites it. Easy to go fast in that thing without noticing, very smooth ride at least!

Skid plates, that another name for belly pan? Pricey after market item, but we've been thinking about that because we do go off road on the ranch (not our ranch, I wish we had a ranch)

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Post by gyre » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:04 am

For aerodynamics it only has to be stiff enough to resist the wind.
For off road they don't have to be aerodynamic.
Sometimes they are open for cooling.
They can be both though, protection and aero.
You might be able to make one cheaper, maybe better.
The aluminum one made for my volvo works as both.
You won't want to be trying an air dam like I suggest off road.
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Re: Preheating Oil/Non-Water Based Antifreeze

Post by Toolmaker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:00 am

gyre wrote:I understand there was a problem with additives in Mobil 1 interfering with gaskets in european cars when it was first introduced.
What problem did you have, Toolmaker?
Switched to synthetic oil in my 69 Camaro.. followed manufacturer instuctions for switchover and got a siezed engine within 300 miles of driving.

Radiator "stop leak" solution created MORE overheating, even after I wound up replacing the leaky radiator with a new one apparently the engine block had gotten restrcited from the additive building up inside. This also required a block replacement.

Again these experiences were a long time ago so maybe the formulas on these products have changed and gotten better. Personally I would just rather drive my vehicle up on the ramps and change the oil when it looks like crap.

As far as air filters and plugs go I have noticed mileage improvement with higher quality replacements. My plugs are bosch platinums with a wire upgrade and I also use K&N filters as well. The biggest improvement I got on the 4.3L V6 engine in both the full size and S10 trucks was when I went with a 3 inch exhaust to replace the stock 2 1/2 with headers. If anyone has GM trucks I found a great place that has EVERYTHING you would ever need to replace with decent prices. The place is in Kansas but they ship everywhere. Just PM me and I'll send ya their website. You could build an entire truck from scratch if need be thats how much shit they have. I got an idler arm from them for like 20 bucks after shipping, saved me about 30.
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Post by Toolmaker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:04 am

AntiM wrote:Skid plates, that another name for belly pan? Pricey after market item, but we've been thinking about that because we do go off road on the ranch (not our ranch, I wish we had a ranch)
My S10 4x4 had those things on it.. what a pain in the arse to remove. When I took those things off I got 4 more mpg. At least the engineer put a little door on the front one so I could change the oil filter. After moving from PA to Miami I really didnt need the brush/skid/belly plates anymore.
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Post by gyre » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:03 pm

Some cars simply have a set of bars that wrap around the oil pan as that is the crucial thing to protect on most things.
I was thinking of drag reduction though.

Toolmaker, did you ever find out the cause of the seizure?
Was it bearings or pistons?
It's not unknown for chevys of this period to fail.
I don't know the story here, but block prep is so important to reliability that a lot of shops insist on drilling through every single oil galley to guarantee it is clear.
Some engines require more dramatic measures to ensure proper operation.
And gaskets have been known to partially block passages.

Do you know what actually happened?
A friend had a car that was running great and then shut down.
Turned out it was way overdue for an oil change so the presumption is that the filter clogged up, but he never checked so it could be random chance too or some other cause.

Was this a high performance engine?


I would never use the radiator stop leak myself.
I use water wetter which makes the water run thinner.
And distilled water to keep the minerals out.

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Post by Toolmaker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:01 pm

gyre wrote:Toolmaker, did you ever find out the cause of the seizure?
Was it bearings or pistons?
Seized pistons.. and I did find out the problem.. synthetic oil being added to an engine that was using regular oil. I have found that it is unwise to use synthetics unless its a newer engine or a block thats been torn down and cleaned. Some additives can lossen up deposits too well which causes a restriction.. I guess this is why now mechanics prefer to clean out oil returns when switching older vehicles to synthetics. Unfortunately this was not common knowledge when I switched to syn the year they came out. The engine was a 454 that I really missed after putting the 350 back in it. I wound up selling the car after that and getting a chevy celebrity.. alot better on gas and made alot more sense to drive. As a general rule I avoid additives now since I had such terrible luck with them. As mentioned the only thing I use is Lucas which does me fine.
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Post by gyre » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:05 am

The engine builders I was referring to do that for any oil.
It has nothing to do with changing to synthetic.

Any oil with detergents could have the same effect.
I am unaware of anything special about synthetics in this way.
For years, I have heard the urban myth that you can't switch between types of standard oil.
This is wrong.
I suspect this is the source of this.

Mobil 1 did have a problem with gaskets at one time.
Castrol did not.

Maybe, if it is true, it is a matter of better oil and better detergents?
All that would be necessary would be to change the filter to pick up anything flushed out.
This should not be a problem with an engine that has had regular oil changes.

You can pour regular oil in with synthetic.
You just lose some of the benefits.
It's only oil.

Engines have been known to suffer blocked oil passages without synthetic.
That is exactly why so much attention is paid to them.
Some designs are less adequate as well.
I can't remember details on the 454.
Was this a high performance engine?
On mine, the pistons are set very loose(to prevent seizing under heavy load) and the car has a special griffin radiator and a very high pressure water pump to prevent flash boiling in the head and piston seizure.
It is a well known problem with high power.

Call the tech people at redline and ask them about some of these things.

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Post by gyre » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:14 am

I use iron or copper spark plugs.
Iron with higher voltages.
Jacobs has a good book on this area.
I like Magnecor wires.
By far the best I have seen, especially for preventing rfi.
And they will custom make for any car , which can save you a fortune.
They have a 10 mm in red I like.

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