Bike Builders Unite

Bikes, trikes, personal mobility and getting to/from the event - this is the place to discuss general transportation issues.
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maladroit
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by maladroit » Tue May 26, 2015 5:49 pm

I'm sorry Elliot but you'll need to explain that a bit more. It doesn't make sense...when I put my car into reverse, the steering doesn't flip directions and it works fine.

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Meat Hunter » Tue May 26, 2015 6:18 pm

How is it that our brain can adapt so readily when steering a sailboat or an outboard motor with a hand-grip - to go left, one moves the tiller on the sailboat or the hand-grip on the outboard motor to the right and then so difficult to steer a reverse steering bike.

It must have something to do with the combination of leaning ones body in the direction that one wishes to go and turning the handle bar in the opposite direction, i.e. mixed signals to the brain.... ?
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by maladroit » Tue May 26, 2015 9:12 pm

I think it's because that type of steering is slow response, it's something you can handle with conscious thought. Riding a bike, however, is a tight control loop that is linked to a physical model in your cerebellum. It's like walking...the bike actually becomes an extension of your body. When you're steering a boat, having to think about something for 250 milliseconds is no problem. On a bike...you're already falling.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue May 26, 2015 9:52 pm

That's an interesting question.
I'm a steersman on a dragon boat team. I stand precariously in the rear of a very low and narrow boat, holding a very loosely mounted tiller while 20 paddlers row it. Balance is everything. It's a lot easier to either fall off the boat or roll the boat than it is not to. I haven't got time to think about it and figure out which way to shove the tiller and I never get it wrong.
But I bet I can't ride that damn bike!
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Tiahaar » Wed May 27, 2015 12:09 am

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that people who know about the counter steering they already do to turn bikes at speed may be more able to ride this at low speed...if they think 'fast speed mode'...but I'm not betting I can ride it either heheheh and I love the boat-like turning of your land yacht Capt!
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Elliot » Wed May 27, 2015 9:47 am

maladroit wrote:I'm sorry Elliot but you'll need to explain that a bit more. It doesn't make sense...when I put my car into reverse, the steering doesn't flip directions and it works fine.
This brings us to yet another amusing way the human brain works: We tend to read what we expect to read. Perhaps you have seen the "tests" where words are garbled, yet we read them perfectly well. In this case, I wrote "hydraulic drive -- and reverse", and most of you read it as "hydraulic steering...".
Many industrial vehicles use hydraulic drive, as opposed to mechanical drive shafts.

Modern fighter jets cannot be steered by a human. The plane is inherently unstable, and only a computer can make the constant and near-instant tiny corrections that are required to maintain (the appearance of) controlled flight. The pilot merely informs the computer where he wishes to go.

A slow-moving boat is the opposite -- the driver has "eons" available to correct any mistake.

A bicycle falls somewhere in between. (emphasis on "falls". ;-) )

A handful years ago I built a four-wheeled four-person pedal car that steered by pivoting in the middle. The steering wheel was in the back seat. Some people were unable to steer it. The problem was that when you turned the steering wheel to the right, the rear half of the vehicle swung to the left -- as a normal function of the vehicle bending into a right-hand-curving form. They noticed this leftward movement and immediately turned the steering wheel the opposite -- wrong -- way.
I had no difficulty with it, but I had designed it and knew deep down how it worked.

:D

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Molotov » Wed May 27, 2015 12:19 pm

Sort of like the guy in back learning to drive a tiller ladder fire truck... (I bet it's hell on the nerves just to be able to steer, but not have a gas or brake pedal!)

[media]

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by captain voltaveus » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:36 am

So its been a while since I checked in with you bike building brothers and sistahs...

This weekend was the truly glorious coming out party for the Voltcycle. I spent an afternoon with a local Boom Box builder Cassofbass who takes vintage suitcases and builds custom boom boxes out of them. He helped me fabricate a 100 Watt boom box into the trike, with a 10 hour lithium ion battery pack situated under the saddle. KICK ASS...

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Portland has a 3 week bike festival, known as Pedal Palooza. The most notorious ride of which is the World Naked Bike Ride. The second most attended ride was this past weekend, the Lit and Loud ride, where 2000+ riders descended upon a local park all lit up with el wire and fairy lights. It felt like the Playa arrived in my neighborhood. Mobile DJ bike trailers. Tall bike fire jousting. The Voltcycle arrived, towing an 8X4 foot boom box lit up with el wire on a modified Burley trailer, shooting off its poofer in time to a sweet mix from DJ Kramer that I ripped off of Soundcloud. 2000 voices cheering its flame throwing arrival. It was glorious. Truly.

I cannot express how much gratitude I feel to the eplaya contributors who both inspired me and helped me with the design and fabrication of the trike + poofer. It didn't feel all that mini that night... Thank you so much. I hope we can share a moment together on the playa. Maybe deep playa at sunrise :D

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ps the Boombox goes to 11...

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:59 am

Elliot wrote: A handful years ago I built a four-wheeled four-person pedal car that steered by pivoting in the middle. The steering wheel was in the back seat. Some people were unable to steer it. The problem was that when you turned the steering wheel to the right, the rear half of the vehicle swung to the left -- as a normal function of the vehicle bending into a right-hand-curving form. They noticed this leftward movement and immediately turned the steering wheel the opposite -- wrong -- way.
I had no difficulty with it, but I had designed it and knew deep down how it worked.

:D
Wait a minute Elliot, that doesn't make sense. I've driven plenty of machine like front-end loaders that steer by the machine hinging in the middle.
I've never seen anyone not find it perfectly intuitive. You turn the wheel to the right, the rear does not swing left, it swings right, and the machine goes right.

??
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Elliot » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:44 pm

You are going to make me fabricate a cardboard model and photograph it from above against a table top with grid lines, aren't you....

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Molotov » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:42 am

Ordered my electric motor kit for my trike (front wheel) yesterday and also purchased a kevlar lined semi-knobby tire for the new 26" rim to replace the stock smooth street tire, which might lose traction in the dust. Already have 6 spare tubes-all heavy duty and some with factory Slime. I probably won't be patching any tubes on the playa, (but have a patch kit, just the same) just replacing them. I'll bring them home and patch them later.

I don't expect patches will stick very well to Slime tubes with holes-I may just send them to recycling at home. :wink:

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:01 am

Elliot wrote:You are going to make me fabricate a cardboard model and photograph it from above against a table top with grid lines, aren't you....
I know we both know what we're talking about, so I think we just aren't taking about the same thing.
in our example of turning the wheel to the right, the rear of the machine physically swings right in relation to the rest of the machine but it travels toward the left relative to the road as it rolls forward.
That's where we are crossing our signals, right?
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Canoe
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Canoe » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:22 pm

I think it's when some sitting in the back section, with the wheel in their hands, turns to the right and:
- the front of the machine swings to the right,
- the rear of the machine swings to the right,
- but the front of the rear section swings to the left,
- the driver sitting in the rear section with their hands on the wheel goes "WTF, as I turn it to the right, I face more to the left!"
Unless they're raised up in a cab with the front wheels well in their sight, their frame of reference (sitting in the rear section) messes them up.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Elliot » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:27 pm

Canoe wrote:I think it's when some sitting in the back section, with the wheel in their hands, turns to the right and:
- the front of the machine swings to the right,
- the rear of the machine swings to the right,
- but the front of the rear section swings to the left,
- the driver sitting in the rear section with their hands on the wheel goes "WTF, as I turn it to the right, I face more to the left!"
Unless they're raised up in a cab with the front wheels well in their sight, their frame of reference (sitting in the rear section) messes them up.
Aaaaannnnnd... we have a winner. :D

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Canoe » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:16 pm

Does anyone know if there's a technical reason I'm not seeing, for TRP (Ogden UT) not offering their Spyke mech disc brakes in a 203mm package?
(https://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php? ... &catid=184)
Apart from not offering it in 203mm (or 200mm), it seems to be the brake I've always dreamed of.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Navi_Keef » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:10 am

Canoe wrote: Apart from not offering it in 203mm (or 200mm), it seems to be the brake I've always dreamed of.
Why are you asking here? Go ask them!

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Tiahaar » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:39 am

My 2015 playa trike! It even gave a ride to Capt. Goddammit out to his fair ship on burn night. The big tires and wide gear range were unstoppable, was a lot of fun. No motor pedal power only and headwinds were to be avoided, tailwinds meant a free ride. Its a mongoose beast with choppered front forks and a longer back end and an 8-speed hub. Rear cooler doubled as seating, bubble blower on the back courtesy of Cap GD :D
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:19 pm

Seeking some advice after combing through all 21 pages of this thread as well as others around the interwebz. My current ride is a red Mongoose Beast that just returned from its second burn. I have no complaints about the Beast, but I am finding myself with two itches to scratch:

1) I really want to try my hand at some customization/mods (even though I am one of the least handy people on the planet), and
2) I really want a trike.

So my question...would it make more sense for a non-handy person like me to try to convert my Beast into a trike using a conversion kit or look for a used trike and Beastify it? Looks like the cost for parts would be about the same either way, and the used trike route seems to be the easier novice project.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:57 pm

A trike kit would work but I think it would probably need some modification to work with the super-wide rear frame of the beast.
Beastifying a trike would just entail swapping a beast front fork on and adding the wide rear wheels. The issues there are that to be a bolt-on, you need to make sure the trike has the same length and diameter head tube to the fork fits right on, and you'll have to lace up your own rear wheels, or have a bike shop do it for you, because trike rear hubs are different than bicycle hubs.
I think you could possibly rivet a second rim to the outside of the trike's original rear rims, use two tubes and cover with a Beast 4' wide tire.

Either way can be made to work, but neither is a direct no-figuring-out bolt-on.

Edit: I have a fat-tire Mongoose and a trike in the garage... I went and looked... the other issue you'd have with a trike kit would be chain alignment. The Mongoose has a wider bottom bracket and crank, the trike kit will be set up for a standard-width bike. If it weren't for that, you could probably just squeeze the Beast frame together until it fit the trike kit.

I think the overall easiest way way to go would be to beastify a trike, either starting with a trike or adding a trike kit to a regular frame - one that your beast front fork fits in.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Tiahaar » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:26 am

Ha, to Beastify a Trike or Trikefy a Beast, that is the question huh Capt! I would agree that converting an existing trike to run beastly 4" tires might be more straightforward. The front playa machine here I'm working on merging with the red one...a supertrike!
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:37 am

Thanks, Capt and Tiahaar. Beastify a trike, it is. After I get that success under my belt, maybe I'll try to trikeify a Beast. Started combing eBay and CraigsList for trikes last night. Was surprised at how difficult it is to find detailed specs on the head tubes. Found some passing reference to the head tube on the Beast being threaded at 1 1/8 and having a length of 5.88". Haven't found any specs on any of the trikes. Would've though Schwinn, at least, would have that info somewhere on their website. Guess I'll do it the old fashioned way and call some customer service lines.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Elliot » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:58 pm

Keep in mind that many store-bought trikes are really bikes with a conversion kit installed at the factory or the dealer. So look closely and be certain of what you are buying.

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:18 pm

Since I've got a good 8 or 9 months ahead of me to get the trike together, I decided to take a page out of Capt. V's book and go frankentrike using my 2-burn-old Mongoose Beast an old mountain bike I picked up from Craigslist. I've got the Beast forks and tricycle conversion kit attached to the mountain bike frame and am contemplating where to go next. I've run into a couple questions, and I am hoping for a few pointers.

First is the minimum hub width I can use for 4-inch rims. The rear axle that came with the trike conversion kit will accommodate up to 65mm hubs. Can I get away with that size hubs with 4-inch rims, or do I have to go with 100mm hubs and have a longer axle fabricated?

My second questions relates to gears. I had originally planned to stick with single speed so as not to further complicate matters for this. But, the mountain bike I picked up is multi speed. With that in mind, I am now hoping to stick with the 3 chain rings in the front while sticking with the single chain ring on the trike conversion kit. I know I need the front derailleur for shifting, but what I don't know is whether I must also have a rear derailleur. With only a single chain ring on the back, I wouldn't need it to shift, but do I need it to take up the slack in the chain as I shift among the front chain rings.

This is my first foray into bike hacking/building, so apologies if these are stupid questions.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:32 pm

I wouldn't go with multiple front chainrings because of the slack issue.
I went with a 5-speed rear internal-gear hub. Much better.
You can buy premade 3- or 5-speed trike rear hub kits, but you generally need to fabricate your own huge rat-rod stick shifter. And yes, you need that.
I haven't seen your trike kit but there are two possibilities I can think of for installing wider rear hubs. Longer axle like you mentioned, or cutting down the axle housing to expose more axle.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Elliot » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:03 pm

Yup. If you are going with any kind of derailer gearing, it will the the rear.
The axle is probably just a standard type industrial shaft with keyway. Any industrial (not just automotive) machine shop can make one up for you. Heck, you can buy it online, but I would worry about it getting bent in transit.
Yes, you should have some gears, for headwind and tailwind.
And you should have a fairly small chainring. Single speed bikes are generally geared too high (too fast) for the Playa.

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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Tiahaar » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:03 am

Raoul wrote:First is the minimum hub width I can use for 4-inch rims. The rear axle that came with the trike conversion kit will accommodate up to 65mm hubs. Can I get away with that size hubs with 4-inch rims, or do I have to go with 100mm hubs and have a longer axle fabricated?

This is my first foray into bike hacking/building, so apologies if these are stupid questions.
Short answer is yes, you could spoke 65mm wide hubs to 4" wide rims, with a dished wheel to move the rims outboard for clearance if needed, spoke length calculator if needed: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

Beast front end on the mountain bike should work great!

Hmmmm, are you re-spoking the rear rims anyways to heavy duty trike hubs?
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:53 am

Tiahaar wrote:Hmmmm, are you re-spoking the rear rims anyways to heavy duty trike hubs?
That's the plan. I'm pulling the wheels off the Beast, ordering the 65mm trike hubs and attempting to spoke those to the Beast rims for the rear wheels. I'm going to try to scavenge a front fork/wheel from a Dolomite to get the disc brake setup.
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:34 pm

Since you're now using virtually none of your Beast except the wheels for the rear of the trike, maybe you should just keep the Beast as a playa bike and put some REAL big wheels on the back of the trike! Sky is the limit, ask Tiahaar or Elliot!
Since you're lacing up your own anyway, if you can find some with the right number of spoke holes (or can arrange something that works) you can use motorcycle or even car wheels and tires. They roll over the playa like its nothing!

Oh yeah... you're in it now...
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:40 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Oh yeah... you're in it now...
Dammit! Just what I was trying to avoid...sort of... 8)

Opens up a whole new world of possibilities!
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Re: Bike Builders Unite

Post by Raoul » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:58 pm

After quite a few instances of taking one step forward to take two steps back, I've managed to cobble together a working fat trike. Thanks to Capt GD, Tiahaar and Elliot for the help with my questions.

Still needs a good set of ape hangers, a paint job and some other tweaks here and there, but for now IT"S ALIVE! :D
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