Go-Peds/Scooters/Pocket Bikes

Bikes, trikes, personal mobility and getting to/from the event - this is the place to discuss general transportation issues.
Wendor
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Post by Wendor » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:24 pm

unjonharley wrote:Along with the placard is #id card that matches the placard #. That's how it reads to me.
Oh really? Here are the pages for both the information for California and for the form itself:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fa ... ffvr07.htm
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg195.pdf
Please note that neither discusses the issuance of *ANY* type id "ID card" as you describe and further please notice that on the form itself even the driver's license number is *NOT* required. Pretty freakin' hard to put it on the placard when it isn't required information on the application.

California (a good example since you brought it up) does not require any type of ID card whatsoever in order to get a handicapped parking placard, as a matter of fact they will issue disabled parking placards to non-residents on request. All you need is a doctor's certification. No drivers' license, ID card, or any other form of identification is required, nor is any identifying information (other than a serial number which is tracked internally by the california department of motor vehices) required on the placard itself. As a Nevada resident I can be issued a California parking placard even if I have no driver's license or state issued ID card at all. Nor will California issue one to me in connection with my request as I would still not be a California resident.

Heck, it would be impossible for them to issue an ID card automatically as you claim. Look at the "How do I get a placard" section:
How Do I Get a Permanent Placard?

You must complete and sign an Application for Disabled Person Placard or Plates (REG 195) and have your doctor sign the disability certification. Mail the application to the address on the form. You will receive your parking placard approximately 2 weeks after the completed form and fees are submitted. You do not have to own or drive the vehicle to use your placard.
If all I have done is filled out the form and had a doctor sign the certification, where will they get the information, picture, etc. to generate an ID card? More importantly, notice that California requires a social security number to issue an ID card:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#SSN
But also note that the form to request a disbaled placard does not even have a space for your SSN.

Admit it unjonharley, you want to help with the abuse of handicapped placards at the event and had an idea for it, unfortunately the rest of the world didn't fit with your plan and made it unusable. There is no way to match positively match handicapped parking placards to individuals on the playa. We know, we've worked on it already.

Ideas are good and it's a shame yours won't work, but it's getting pretty pathetic that you keep insisting that your idea will work no matter how much concrete evidence to the contrary you have to ignore along the way. Give it up and move on to other ideas.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:05 pm

Wendor, this is not the Dioxine list. The e-playa has a TOS: Terms of Service and a Community Guidelines section that I strongly encourage you to read. Attacks on ideas are one thing, attacks on individuals is another, and your last post is getting a bit overboard, imho.

While the ideas being discussed are interesting, they will change NOTHING right now. Consider taking this to the ORG via e-mail or bring it up at the town hall meeting in December. If the discussion continues, how about everyone stepping back and being a bit more civil?

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:48 pm

Wendor,

Contrary to your perceptions, copious amounts of clarification were solicited from the various state DMVs from several of the staff legal consultants working with the BM project. It actually boiled down to very simple requirement for getting into the event and being allowed to drive vehicles as a registered individual with disabilities. Those requirements were strictly adhered to insofar as operating a motor vehicle within the event by someone/anyone diagnosed/defined as being handicapped per the Americans With Disabilities Act.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:50 am

Hi All,
I just got off the phone with Amber of the Ca. DMV 1-800-777-0133. I had asked he how Ca. matches a disable placard with the the owner of the card. She said: "that a id is attached to the plcard when mailed". ""It is then up to law inforcement"". Inforcement can ask for this information. """The information in Ca. looks a lot like a regerstoration slip."

AS for the state of Or. The placard have a field of white where to persons id# is written onto it.

Am waiting for Mi. Id.& Wi. To ansewer me
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

Wendor
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Post by Wendor » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:01 am

Tancorix wrote:Wendor, this is not the Dioxine list. The e-playa has a TOS: Terms of Service and a Community Guidelines section that I strongly encourage you to read. Attacks on ideas are one thing, attacks on individuals is another, and your last post is getting a bit overboard, imho.
I have read them and have complied 100% with them. And quite frankly find it quite ridiculous that you would consider my comments above to be a personal attack on someone, espicially in the context of many recent posts.

So please forgive me if I consider that unjonharley calling people "Dumb Fucks" being acceptable makes it a little ridiculous to claim that my statement that he is getting pretty pathetic to be a personal attack.

Thank you for your opinion however.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:21 am

Wendor, Your just to defencive when ""your wrong"".
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

Wendor
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Post by Wendor » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:32 am

unjonharley wrote:Hi All,
I just got off the phone with Amber of the Ca. DMV 1-800-777-0133. I had asked he how Ca. matches a disable placard with the the owner of the card. She said: "that a id is attached to the plcard when mailed". ""It is then up to law inforcement"". Inforcement can ask for this information. """The information in Ca. looks a lot like a regerstoration slip."

AS for the state of Or. The placard have a field of white where to persons id# is written onto it.

Am waiting for Mi. Id.& Wi. To ansewer me
Sorry, but that is not true for either state.

Richard at the California DMV (800-777-0133):
Q. An ID card comes with my placard?
A. No. All that somes with your placard is a receipt slip.

Q. This slip is required to be kept with my placard or on my person?
A. No. All does is a receipt and in case your placard is destroyed or lost and you need a replacement.

Q. So there's no way to match my placard to me? What if someone steals my placard?
A. Police in California can look up who the placard belongs to by the number on the placard.

Q. So my drivers license number is on there?
A. Yes.

Q. What if I don't have a driver's license?
A. Well, then it won't be on the card, but they can still look it up by the serial number on the card.

Q. So in some cases there's nothing I could look at on the card to tell who it belongs to, but the police can call in and look it up?
A. Correct.

Alicia at the Oregon DMV (503-945-5000):
Q. Do I have to have an Oregon drivers license or ID card to get a disabled parkign placard? It seems to say so on the web page.
A. In depends on the type of permit you are requesting. There are 5 separate types of disabled parking permits in Oregon.

Q. What about theft? Even if I don't have a ddriver's license number for you to put on there is my name at leats ont here to identify that it is my placard?
A. Again that depend son the type of license. Family and Program Parking Permits don't have any identifying information, personal identifying information that is, on them at all.

Q. But even those have a serial number or something you track internally, right?
A. Yes, of course.

So we see that no "ID card" is issued along with handicapped parking placards in California, and only SOME parking placards in Oregon have a person's information on them. (Not *ALL* as you claimed)

But that's it. I'm done wasting my time on this with you. If you want to try and convince the org that disabled parking placards can be matched to individuals by ID etc. on the playa as you keep insisting, then go right ahead and try and convince them of this. They already have the facts and know better.

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safetythird
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Post by safetythird » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:05 am

What possesses fools like you to assume...
Ahhhh, it's good to see the spirit of Burning Man alive and well within you.



S3

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:18 am

It's that your so full of it. I have in my hand right now. My Or. placard and am standing next to my scooter. Both placard and scooter sticker have my lic# written on them. Also I have just returned from a short walk to check another placard. So if this is so, How would you expect any one to believe you on the other statements you have made. I have no idea why you would spread disinformetion in this area.

Ferther more in the page you posted it states: (out of context) You will recieve you placard in the mail along with a id#

It is only logic that there would be a cross check to verify who the placard belongs to. So if Ca. & Or. are smart enough to have a cross check is igure the rest of the states do too.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

Wendor
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Post by Wendor » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:40 am

unjonharley wrote:It's that your so full of it. I have in my hand right now. My Or. placard and am standing next to my scooter. Both placard and scooter sticker have my lic# written on them. Also I have just returned from a short walk to check another placard. So if this is so, How would you expect any one to believe you on the other statements you have made. I have no idea why you would spread disinformetion in this area.
And you foolishly assume that just becuase YOUR placard looks a certain way that *ALL* placards (even in your state) are exactly the same. Yes, your Oregon placard has your license number on it. Not all placards issued in Oregon do. Which them makes it impossible to require a match between the drivers license and the placard on playa as you suggested. But hey, you keep running with your assumption based on the whole TWO data points you have observed...even though your own state's DMV office says otherwise.


unjonharley wrote:Ferther more in the page you posted it states: (out of context) You will recieve you placard in the mail along with a id#

It is only logic that there would be a cross check to verify who the placard belongs to. So if Ca. & Or. are smart enough to have a cross check is igure the rest of the states do too.
Ah, how quickly you change your statement.

I always said that there was a serial number on the placard that can be matched to an individual via a lookup in your state's motor vehicle database. That of course is 100% useless on the playa since we don't have any way to query state vehicle registation databases directly.

You claimed (shall I quote you?) that all disabled placards could be matched on the playa to the person they were issued to via a name or driver's license or ID card number on the placard itself. Actually I will quote you:
Check the divers lic and the tag no match no drive.
So, please enlighten us...how do you plan to do this matching with placards that don't have a name, drivers license number, or state id card number on them?

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:00 pm

Wendor, I have no idea what axe you have to grind. Your disinformation is just that. Why would try to discredit me by saying I miss quoted The Ca. dmv statement?

I live in the state capital where all lic plates and placard are printed. Even out of area printing is contractd from the state capital. The only placard different from mine are for perminitly disabled. A check with dmv will show this printed on the placard.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

Wendor
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Post by Wendor » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:33 pm

unjonharley wrote:Wendor, I have no idea what axe you have to grind. Your disinformation is just that.
No axe to grind at all....just to show how full of crap you are.

So let's go back to sqaure one. You claim that the DMV on playa should match all handicapped placards to the drivers' license of the persont he placard belongs to in order to verify that they match and then not issue a handicaped license unless they do.

When it was pointed out to you that most handicapped placards do not have the information on them necessary to do this matching on playa (without the benefit of the sate computer records) you insisted that *ALL* handicapped placards have the name and drivers lincense number of the person on them.

That's the part I am trying to show you...that your assumption that *ALL* placards have a name or drivers lincese number on them just because your does is incorrect.

Even the DMV office in your own state (Oregon) says that you are wrong. Specifically in your state two entire categories of disabled parking permit (Family and Program) do *NOT* have names, drivers license numbers or any other information that anyone other then the police or the Oregon state DMV can use to match the placard to a person.

I have even given you a list of states that DEFNITELY do not meet your criteria since we have physical examples in our offices of handicapped placards fromt hose states that do not have the information on thme needed to match them to a specific person on the playa.

Despite all of that you continue to insist that you are correct. So, I'll ask you yet again, how do you plan to require a drivers license to handicapped placard match? What information on the placrds will you use? Remember, it has to be something that will be on *ALL* placards.

unjonharley wrote: Why would try to discredit me by saying I miss quoted The Ca. dmv statement?
Because you did misquote it. In addition, a representative of the California DMV was quite helpful in answering questions that showed your information to be inaccuracte.
unjonharley wrote:I live in the state capital where all lic plates and placard are printed. Even out of area printing is contractd from the state capital.
So what? Living in the same city doesn't mean you know anything about how your own state offices work. Do you work for the DMV? Do you have any special knowledge of their procedures or are you just continuing to make assumptions based on what YOUR placard looks like? Yes, all placards may be manufactured there, but the Oregon DMV says that they make FIVE different types of placards there.

unjonharley wrote:The only placard different from mine are for perminitly disabled. A check with dmv will show this printed on the placard.
100% incorrect. A check with the DMV has shown that there are FIVE types of disabled parking placards in use in Oregon and two separate styles (old and new with different colors) for each. That makes TEN different ones in current use...so NINE of them are different from yours. But hey, you looked at YOUR placard and at ONE other one....so hey you must know more than the Oregon DMV offices do.

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Post by M Joe Boss » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:32 pm

I had to say something here, in any case wheather or not they have been issued a state placard, this does not mean that they are ,or are not temporarily, or permanantly disabled. I for one spent $400.00 on a gas powered scooter this year. why? Because yes I can still walk the length of any parking lot that I have ever been to, but then so can a good portion of those who have those placards,( don't argue with me on that,I know many of them). The fact is though, I couldn't walk halfway around the esplanade due to a bad knee.
I do not feel however that I need to burden those who have more extreme handicapps from not being able to park in spaces designated for them,in the real world. Butt, that does not diminish the fact that my scooter afforded me the priveledge of really being able to get out and see more than I had in the last three years combined.
The fact that unjon harley wants to be proveyor of who is handicapped and who is not, is pissing me off.

I have had this bad knee for 11 years, I could get a handicap placard, but I chose not to, so that people like him can use those spaces. but at BM we aren't talking about a little parking lot are we??
I can ride a bike a little further than I could walk, so I took 2 this year, I rode one around as far as I could thursday night, And paid like hell for it.

The real fact is that though I saw several scooters this year, there were not an overwhelming amount of them. You just noticed everyone of them from atop your high horse. I wish you could have a little more compassion for those of us that make it possible , at our own pain, for you to have it just a little bit better in the real world!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:12 pm

Sorry Boss, You don't need to be picking any scabs on me. I park the same as you do. I need to try and push myself. So I walk when I can. It wont be long before I wont be able to. At BM this year I walked the 8:00 street every morning. Just putting my little time picking up moop. I rode bike to the jots. Needed the scooter to rang out more. Hell in 01 I rode bike every where. Grand father rode with me and told me where to steer. Or he would take me on his scooter. I couldn't see more than 5 ft in front of me. What this thread and I come down to is: The guys that got a placard and sticker then abused them.
I had a hell of a time getting Granfathers scooter in this year. Or. sticker or not. The gate and DMV were not conected and up to speed yet when I came in.
I built a scooter this year just to test it on the playa. The thing made a lot of noise after a week of dust but kept runing. I have three people that want me to covert a scooter for then. Only thing I want is they alow me time. It takes twice as long for me to do anything. Now run along and dis another personK¿
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:51 pm

No axe to grind at all....just to show how full of crap you are.
The more things change the more they stay the same. I recall reading another discussion a long time ago on the Dioxine list that Wendor was involved in that played out almost identically to this little set of rants. And it went on and fucking on and fucking on, Wendor if I recall correctly even vanished off the Dioxine list for a while in a huff...I'm sure I have it in the archives I keep if I get off my ass and look...the point is it sure as hell looks like you have an axe to grind Wendor. I know I'm butting in where I shouldn't be but this is deja vu all over again for me...I've read this crap before and we really don't need it here.

Maybe it's time to agree to disagree and be done with it. Otherwise you're quickly heading towards the e-playa Troll Hall of Fame. And you don't deserve that fate as many of your posts and Dioxine posts are very interesting reads. And really...instead of seeing you battle with Unjun, I'd love to hear about you bringing this up with the org...who has the real power to change this. Ranting here (ranting in this form where it's starting to turn personal and involving just two people) accomplishes nothing except alienating you from the rest of the community.

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yea

Post by Lysergic » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:51 am

yea seriously take your flames elsewhere!
Doubt everything. Find your own light.
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unjonharley
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Re: yea

Post by unjonharley » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:30 am

Lysergic wrote:yea seriously take your flames elsewhere!


/\
Up the north beach of Or. they rent a thing called a beach cruiser. It's recumbent pretty low to the ground. So low you might get killed in street traffic. anyway, With a small motor it would make a fine playa cruiser. A person would have to do a art job on it.
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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