Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Bikes, trikes, personal mobility and getting to/from the event - this is the place to discuss general transportation issues.
Gao
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Gao » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:29 pm

East Seattle-20150712-00145.jpg
oops, my mistake - DOUBLE the contact area of a beach bike.. not 4 times! anyway - this thing is going to roll! here is the chassis... chassis is upside down on my table saw....
start thinking about afternoon martinis on the playa.. When I get a little further along I'll ask you all how you like them.
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Gao
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Gao » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:37 pm

my great friend Ardendum was so unfavorably amazed by how many mechanical fasteners I used in our inaugural 2010 camp structure (aka dual pyramids sort of) that he will never forget.
The double rainbow that appeared as we were setting up was mana from heaven - at that moment he surely should have understood that my creations are more than just things... they are manifestations of my inspirations, of new challenges, of building stuff and of new experiences.
This year I decided, in honor of him, to use no mechanical fasteners at all. The martini chariots of ice will be 100% wood and only wood - and a little glue to bond it all together. There...

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gaminwench
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by gaminwench » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:28 pm

oooh, all of those spring clamps, lined up 'just so' and doing their work so efficiently, make my heart go pitter patter! :D
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

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Roundabout
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Roundabout » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:06 pm

gaminwench wrote:oooh, all of those spring clamps, lined up 'just so' and doing their work so efficiently, make my heart go pitter patter! :D
What... No kind words for the screw clamps?
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gaminwench
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by gaminwench » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:44 pm

that would be a more private matter 8) .

I can't just expose myself as a blithering idiot over simple tools on the internet, what would my mother say? :D
"the prophecies of doom were better last year" trilo

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homo ardentum
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by homo ardentum » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:35 am

Gao loves bonding and bondage but only of a woody nature. Screw clamps are ok, but what truly gets him going is friction. In 2010, not only did he have enough bolts that would hold up a 737 wing in flight, he had to drill each bolt hole with tolerances so tight the each of the 400 bolts had to be hammered into each hole!

Needless to say that by the time the double rainbow appeared, I was Dreaming of Maxwell's silver hammer...and that he was there to assist.

This year, it's again about friction and weight. Now a 2-inch wooden axel? Come on!!!
I'll be there for the martinis though. And possibly a White Russian? It may not even be a long walk if his paddle wheels seize up once the playa mixes with lubricants...

Gao
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Gao » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:11 pm

Gaminwench - thanks for noticing all those clamps lined up. on one hand I am OCD, on the other I am an engineer and want things to come out as best they can... maybe the combination is good.
either way, I hope to see you and the others out on the playa.. we can talk all about tools without the stress of internet publicity.

Mr Ardentum - you better be ready for a long walk or bike ride. The chariot ice martini rig will be in deep space. far far away from Carnivore Camp and the teams of thirsty vodka quaffers... or do you prefer your martinis with gin? Black Russians??? in camp only. I have ice from 2012 to bring home. Your 2010 ice block used in 2012 was supreme.

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homo ardentum
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by homo ardentum » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:18 am

Gao is constructing faster than posting, so I'd thought to help him out. As you can see, he has wheels, platform, tow bar, bike, test goddess, and cigar in place. I can confirm that he is going to use a solid wood axle made of red oak. In the photo, he's mocked up his proposed ride height (looks to be 5 - 6 inches). I say its too low...what do you think?
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Zubeneschamali
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Zubeneschamali » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:17 pm

Awesome!

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Shoeshine
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Shoeshine » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:59 pm

Looking phenomenal!
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[jim]
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by [jim] » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:52 pm

homo ardentum wrote:Gao is constructing faster than posting, so I'd thought to help him out. As you can see, he has wheels, platform, tow bar, bike, test goddess, and cigar in place. I can confirm that he is going to use a solid wood axle made of red oak. In the photo, he's mocked up his proposed ride height (looks to be 5 - 6 inches). I say its too low...what do you think?
Tongue looks like it might be weak... how much weight will you have on it fully loaded? If there are any sand dunes in your path, your current ground clearance is waay too low!

Also, make sure there will be no way for anyone to jump on your chariot for a ride. Believe me, they will try. And they'll be drunk and uncooperative.

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chuckularone
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by chuckularone » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:52 pm

I'm thinking, dunes and all, you might want to invest in a fat-tired bike. If you hit loose playa or a dune with a typical bike (like in your picture) while towing that cart, you're gonna end up with a serious pain in the ass, literally.
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Joeln
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Joeln » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:01 pm

OK, I was real doubtful at first, but that thing looks cool!

I'm guessing the tongue in the picture is incomplete or a mock-up.
Nice work :coffee:
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homo ardentum
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by homo ardentum » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:41 am

It's a mock up (notice no axle yet) and knowing Gao, it'll be as strong as a Boeing 777 wing.

BUT I also think clearance could be a issue. Thanks for all the input...it may help!

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Canoe
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:34 pm

That does look great!
homo ardentum wrote:...I can confirm that he is going to use a solid wood axle made of red oak. In the photo, he's mocked up his proposed ride height (looks to be 5 - 6 inches). I say its too low...what do you think?
On-playa I got surprised by soft dust that was so deep the front of that would have been plowing, possibly with dust coming up over the leading edge. And then there's the playa ruts that can form and much heavier material filling it. I'd go for another inch and considering going for two.

With playa ruts, the front point of the platform could catch in some situations, and drastically if the tow breaks. From bike-taxi construction experience, I'd suggest considering attaching a skid under the front point to manage a dig in attempt.

Also from the bike-taxi bit, there can be some towing stability issues when towing something that heavy from up by seat height. And particularly if there's a large tongue weight.
Loading can also be an issue, so expect to lean the bike over to let the front point rest on the ground. With a heavy tongue expect to have the trailer try to do that to the bike at any and all times.

Catching/grinding/cutting objects (fingers, hands, feet) between the wheels and the deck. Consider a guard? Enough said.

Tongue weight.
Make sure you consider tongue weight when you place your trailer's axle.
Be very aware of what and how your load can be shifting, be it front-back or side to side. You don't want the bike driver to be thrown around trying to control things.

I did up a hitch to get the tongue weight onto the rear axle of a bike. It was made for a bike that was already custom rigged for a small rear wheel (original builder's hitch method failed). The green universal joint opening slips over a greased round tube that is attached to the 1x2" cross-member of the hitch. Visible is the bolt with nut that goes through the sleeve and into a wide hole in the round tube, allowing the bike to lean left & right to the limit of that hole, as seen in the top image. The metal used is heavier than it needs to be, but the trailer was is hugely more robust than it needs to be too.
hitch v2, primed, leaning - sm.jpg
It would be a different design and look, but adding a front wheel/caster to make the trailer into a tricycle, would solve tongue weight and towing issues and guarantee stability.
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Canoe
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Canoe » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:55 pm

If you are considering one of the cheap fat bikes to get a rear tire that will not be stuck in playa dunes and dust ponds with the tongue load, remember that there's the children's 20" fat bikes. Some adults enjoy riding them with different handle bars (BMX, ape hangers, etc.) and a tall seat post, or even a banana or loaf seat.

Here's there relative size of a 20" Massif (front) to the 26" Dolo in the rear.
(both have 7 speeds and disc brakes - you want good brakes for stopping that trailer)
Expect to go to a smaller ring in front for pulling that trailer. A mountain-triple is an easy way to get that (42/32/22) Manually switch from 32 or 22 depending on your needs.
26 inch dolo & 20 inch massif.jpg
Should find some upgrade examples at ratrodbikes fat-bikes.
Someone even put a Massif rear end onto an old road bike...
http://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php? ... ike.87277/
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Gao
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Gao » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:09 pm

IMG_20150810_182217.jpg
thanks for all the great ideas and thoughts and pictures.. Ardman is right> I've been way busy. Here are the internal side frames being glued up an hour ago.. I also now have the side panels cut. Weight is becoming a concern for me.. I am making it extra strong - albeit heavy. balance will be key. you are right about the tongue weight and attach points. Heavy and the current structural and functional weak links attaching to the cart and bike. It's still all wood - no metal fasteners.

I've also got mixed ideas about finish... to paint or not to paint? and if to paint with what type of paint and in what design?
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Meat Hunter
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Meat Hunter » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:02 pm

As most of you ol' timers on e-playa know, I have a tricked out and electrified adult trike.

It is not a big problem because I have transported folks facing backwards on the ice chest in my back basket and they have most always been smiling when they arrived at their destination. But, this has not been as convenient or as feasible as I might wish.

With the electric kit and two 20a 36v lithium ion batteries (primary and emergency), my trike weights over 115 lbs. and with me; add another 180 lbs. (295 lb total). The motor has had no problem pulling myself and an additional passenger. I am of the opinion that the motor would also have no problem pulling an additional 30 lbs. - 50 lbs.

For 2016, I am thinking about building a light weight 2 wheel trailer that I can pull behind the trike to carry a passenger in comfort and to make ice runs that would weigh between 20 lbs. - 40 lbs.

The basis of the trailer might be 3/8" plywood platform, 2-24"d x 2"w bike wheels, 1/4" plywood sides decorative cut & painted and with a shortened leg plastic chair sitting inside the trailer, facing the front and with a canopy similar to the canopy my trike.

I am thinking that I might build the sides of the trailer to resemble a circus wagon and I might also also install a 12v ATV battery powered sound system.

The general idea is to make it strong, but no stronger than needed. And, light, but not so light that it will not stand-up to the playa.

This will give me something to ponder upon during the late fall and if I can keep it under my design weigh, I would hope to have it finished come the end of March 2016.
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Canoe
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Canoe » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:21 pm

Without knowing the whole design, you've got me worried about how the trailer weight gets transferred to the wheels. Such tall wheels have a huge moment of the contact patch at the rim to the axle.

If there's sides or shell that are not structural, you may be able to source some light thin plywood, the type used inside trailers/caravans.
Gao wrote:... I've also got mixed ideas about finish... to paint or not to paint? and if to paint with what type of paint and in what design?
You need something, even if it's marine ply that was used, to be sure that a rain can't swell wood and ruin joints or appearance (and add more weight). Be a shame to hide that wood under paint.
I'd love to see it with tung oil sealer, but that's $$.
Penatrol paint conditioner from Lowe's does great water proofing, but $9 a quart, and dry time. As it's a mixture that includes linseed oil and alkaloid resins, it would make a reasonable treatment of glued joints if you're not filleting them, and of the rim edge of the wheels, that contacts the ground, to make that edge more robust. I'm hoping you've got something planned to line that edge for even better robustness.
I'd guess a water-based poly is going to be the economical water-proofing of all of that wood.

Don't know what you're planning with wood axles. Going to need something to lube and waterproof them too? Beeswax?
(not rosin (or any other resin), like some try with violin pegs - will heat on use/friction, then when it cools down it will try to bond)

A quick & easy way to setup a hitch on a tow bike, is to take part of the frame of another scrap bike: seat-tube, bottom-bracket, chain-stays, seat-stays. The sub-frame attaches to the rear wheel axles of the bike, but with that frame facing backwards. Then rotate the sub-frame upwards towards the front, such that the top of sub-frame's seat-tube can be bolted to the top of the bike's seat-tube. This leaves the sub-frame's bottom-bracket roughly over the rear axle, where you can add a hitch. This makes for much more stable towing/steering than from the top of a bike's seat-tube or under its seat. It also means you have a chance of adding adult training wheels or robust outrigger wheels to the bike for added stability, should that be required. Of course a tricycle doing the towing would be ideal.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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homo ardentum
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by homo ardentum » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:39 pm

Ok fans...Gao in true Burner fashion forgot his user name AND password so he asked to pass along the FINAL update before we see ya'll back Home.
Wheels are done, 2" oak axle installed, the and shell is cut and ready for a Playa build out. Gao has reported that it is ALL wood...no metal anywhere (except for that plate in his head).
It will be painted...but that will be a playa surprise!

From Gao's email:
No pictures of the final product as it will have the reveal on the playa next week. I am now 93% certain the chariot will come together at home in BRC and ride to it’s glory onto the playa.

Let’s meet on Wednesday afternoon around noon, somewhere past The MAN around 11AM on the playa. I plan to bring a cooler of ice and ice cold vodka, vermouth, olives, cups and a shaker. All of the burners who have weighed in on the blog and added their ideas and encouragement are invited to stop by for a cocktail.. 21 and older OF COURSE.
Here are a few pix from earlier...see you guys in the dust! Woohooo!!!!!
IMG952015082295210549.jpg
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Zubeneschamali
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Zubeneschamali » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:48 pm

Build it and they will come.

No, offer martini's and they will come.

I know that area somewhere past the man extremely well, however I am terrible at keeping time.

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Bemerritt
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Re: Ideal Bike-towed bar cart

Post by Bemerritt » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:34 pm

any finished pics? I am looking to build something similar wheel wise to tow behind a Trike.

Also, thickness of the plywood used for the wheels?

Thanks!

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