New Burningman Ticket Process - 2012

[tamarakay]

@tamarakay. I find as a 6 year burner, I already have most of what I need, and can pretty easily plan for what I don't have, ie more nifty reflective bubblewrap for the van, maybe some more repairs on it. Chip in on prizes for the camp. Food. Gas. Everything else is a luxury, not a necessity, except of course, the ticket.

I don't know what happened to this, but this is the second time I've typed this out. weird.

I am a second year burner, 2011 was my first.
This is what I'm trying to do for 2012:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 83&t=51419
I am not just chipping in on prizes, i'm creating the whole camp. Infrastructure and all. I wish I was at the "I already have most of what I need" stage, but not quite there yet.

[Canoe]

* Limit to two tickets per entry is not family friendly. (This should be fixed. Can't think of a way to police that only families can get four, or if four should be only for families or for everyone.)

* Would like to see an additional check-box option where - if you win a tier lower than your max-tier selection, the system automatically trades your lower tier ticket(s) for ticket(s) from your max-teir:
- you get/pay-for your max-tier selection
- your max tier's quota is reduced
- your lower tier ticket(s) get returned to that tier's quota for someone else to get.
This is an option easy to capture, should be easy to implement, allows one to maximize their chance of getting to go while leaving less expensive tickets for others.

How many people mailed in for tickets the last few years?
* allow those without credit-cards, pre-paid or credit, or without computer access (for whatever reason), to have a means of entering the lottery through the mail?

[gkillmaster]

Why can't we just all just pay the same average price, whatever it would be. How much more fair could it be than that? Maybe the tickets would end up being somewhere around $330. And we could help reduce the costs further dispensing with the (god awful and environmentally insulting) default world fireworks extravaganzas.

I'm having a really hard time comprehending this at all. Seems like very convoluted scheme. I don't get why we can't all just pay the same price and if we have friends who are not as well off, just offer to help them with the ticket price (which happens anyways). Just seems so unnecessarily complicated.

[The Bruce]

With this system being a game of chance there is no point in having a tier pricing system. I have always paid full price for tickets but I'm not going to opt out of lower tiers if its going to reduce my chances of getting a ticket at all. Also this system is going to make things easier for scalpers because now they will have two weeks to flood the lottery registration. How hard is it to get multiple pre-paid visa cards, multiple e-mail addresses, multiple PO Boxes or friends to receive the tickets. Make no mistake this is no big deal when they will make $500 profit per ticket at least. If the ORG is already making an aftermarket website for burners to buy and sell tickets then they should make all tickets non transferable unless the transfer happens over the approved web site where the transaction is limited to the face value of the ticket.

[Raymaker]

Look at your chances this way- for you to not get a ticket in either pre-sale or the Main sale would mean that more than 43,000 Burners had their shit together by the middle of January to get tickets.

Think about that.

43,000+ Burners will have to have their shit together to cause someone to not get a ticket in one of the early draws. Possible, but oh so very unlikely.

This also assumes that 21,500 couples don't panic and both parties apply for tickets, removing 21,500 tickets away from the sale, or 10,750 groups of 4 people, even just a small percentage doing this will make a serious dent and cause further panic.

Last year half the tickets went in the first two days, so this year if all those people double up, well…

And you also forget people like me, who waited until July, or just later than the first round last year, so on top of the 50% who bought their tickets in the first round last year, will be ALL the rest that casually purchased later in the year, because there is no other choice!

[Marscrumbs]

This also assumes that 21,500 couples don't panic and both parties apply for tickets, removing 21,500 tickets away from the sale, or 10,750 groups of 4 people, even just a small percentage doing this will make a serious dent and cause further panic.

Last year half the tickets went in the first two days, so this year if all those people double up, well…

And you also forget people like me, who waited until July, or just later than the first round last year, so on top of the 50% who bought their tickets in the first round last year, will be ALL the rest that casually purchased later in the year, because there is no other choice!

That a idea. Instead of going a buying early tickets for two, both indivually should enter the lottery: one for 1st tier only; one for both. If you get extra tickets scalp them. What's this years theme again?

[Raymaker]

This also assumes that 21,500 couples don't panic and both parties apply for tickets, removing 21,500 tickets away from the sale, or 10,750 groups of 4 people, even just a small percentage doing this will make a serious dent and cause further panic.

Last year half the tickets went in the first two days, so this year if all those people double up, well…

And you also forget people like me, who waited until July, or just later than the first round last year, so on top of the 50% who bought their tickets in the first round last year, will be ALL the rest that casually purchased later in the year, because there is no other choice!

That a idea. Instead of going a buying early tickets for two, both indivually should enter the lottery: one for 1st tier only; one for both. If you get extra tickets scalp them. What's this years theme again?

Actually 'Raymaker' wrote that.

My partner and I are applying for two tickets in her name only, we are playing fair. If we don't get tickets we will go somewhere else.

If I was one that would consider applying in both our names doubling our chances, I would sell the second lot of tickets on at face value and offer the cheapest of any tier gained. But we are not doing this, we will either get one chance or fail.

While on this subject I presently earn £32,000 a year before taxes, if I was offered a job tomorrow that meant my wages put me in the top 1% should I turn it down?

[AntiM]

I'm half of a couple, and I'm not going to enter us both in. So there's two you can potentially get.

[lemur]

i enjoy reading of the people who talk about gaming the lottery with multiple shill entries and their mentions of 'sticking it to the BMORG' ..more or less.. ranting about how the participants make the event and how burning man LLC doesnt care about them so they deserve it blahblalah..


ya know.. it only hurts YOU to fuck with this system because it doesnt stop larry, or any of the other BORG from attending.. only honest awesome burners like yourselves..

you wanta see less art in 2012?
less interaction with people?
less awesome dance music ?

than whore up those tickets!!!

[theCryptofishist]

My partner and I are applying for two tickets in her name only, we are playing fair. If we don't get tickets we will go somewhere else.

Thank you. And you, too, AntiM. Watching all the hysteria and cynicism of the past ten days makes this honesty very refreshing.

[trilobyte]

@Canoe - optional ability to volunteer to pay the highest tier for your ticket is not an option this year. It's worth noting that the Secondary Sale in March has a limit of 4 tickets and is priced at the higher tier 3 price.

@Raymaker - 'doubling up' is a definite possibility, but it also assumes that money is not an object for anyone (and that all burners are opportunists and hoarders). I do agree that people who got burned or had close calls will be planning earlier this year (not all, because some people make the same mistakes over and over again), but enough that 40K tickets in the Main Sale might not cover everybody.

[Heyu]

I wonder if those that can afford it, when we pay for our drawn ticket, could check a box so that we could donate $5 for a "Last Chance or Wild Card" draw.

Like our tax returns, or our gas heating bills, this would allow us to give some small help to those with less.

Because we (those that have less money pressure) have a better chance than those who can only afford the $240 tier (only 10,000 tickets) We could have a "Wild Card Draw " for those who entered the 240 tier, but were not drawn.
If 20% of those that are granted tickets at higher tiers donate, that would be $50,000 toward "Wild Card" tickets (approximately 150 tickets).

Folks would pre-qualify by entering the 240 tier only (why would you limit your chance for tickets unless you were broke)

This would help build community, and make it more inclusive.

Not only does this event take money to produce, but it takes participants. Those that participate should not be constricted entirely by finances.

BORG shouldn't have to do everything for us.

Heyu

[perfecto insecto]

this is a long thread, and i haven't read all the comments so this may have been touched on, but maybe this will spawn a new type of camp... Camp "Lost Souls" or "Ticket Orphan Camp" or Camp "I Got a Ticket but My Campmates for the Past 5 Years Didn't".

maybe they will structure the city so that Odd Balls can band together and get radical with strangers, making new friends and alliances and an even better/worse/stronger/weird/boring experiment?

maybe i will be the only one of my group to get a ticket and then i will finally be able to do walk in camp like i have always wanted?

or maybe i won't win the lottery and just won't go.

[Canoe]

@Canoe - ... It's worth noting that the Secondary Sale in March has a limit of 4 tickets and is priced at the higher tier 3 price...

...always paid full price for tickets but I'm not going to opt out of lower tiers if its going to reduce my chances of getting a ticket at all.

one's hand is forced by the process if one wants a ticket to get to go, or else lower your chances...

...If the ORG is already making an aftermarket website for burners to buy and sell tickets then they should make all tickets non transferable unless the transfer happens over the approved web site where the transaction is limited to the face value of the ticket.

Can't see enforcement of non-transferable tickets at the gate - issues already covered by many others prior postings.
And, BMOrg is already swamped with inquiries regarding legitimacy of tickets being exchanged from burners who can't go to ones who can. Trilobyte posted the numbers from 2011 earlier. Hence, their planning for a system for exchange.

...This also assumes that 21,500 couples don't panic and both parties apply for tickets, removing 21,500 tickets away from the sale, or 10,750 groups of 4 people, even just a small percentage doing this will make a serious dent and cause further panic.
Last year half the tickets went in the first two days, so this year if all those people double up, well…

So, if Burners who had to make multiple entries to ensure they get a ticket end up with owning twice or three or more times as many tickets than they need, they'll be able to put them up for grabs through an BMOrg managed exchange system...
Wonder if we'll get 40,000 tickets owned by 20,000 burners and they'll have to be redistributed through BMOrg later in the year.

...maybe this will spawn a new type of camp... Camp "Lost Souls" or "Ticket Orphan Camp" or Camp "I Got a Ticket but My Campmates for the Past 5 Years Didn't"...

yup.

...maybe they will structure the city so that Odd Balls can band together and get radical with strangers, making new friends and alliances and an even better/worse/stronger/weird/boring experiment?...

Called Burning Man?

[CapnJoe45]

After reading the procedures finally posted on JRS, I still don't understand what they are trying to do. Why have different tiers of tickets if people signing up for the top tiers will still be in the lottery for all tiers? Am I reading this wrong or am I just too dense to understand what is happening?

[theCryptofishist]

I think the idea there is that people able to pay for the higher tiers were sitting there on ticket day ready to pounce and take away the first tier tickets already. So this is no worse, and avoids the server-crashing cluster fuck of the first day of ticket sales.

[unjonharley]

I think the idea there is that people able to pay for the higher tiers were sitting there on ticket day ready to pounce and take away the first tier tickets already. So this is no worse, and avoids the server-crashing cluster fuck of the first day of ticket sales.

I see the ticket office looking like bombed out Berlin Those first two weeks

[Just_Joe]

I think the idea there is that people able to pay for the higher tiers were sitting there on ticket day ready to pounce and take away the first tier tickets already. So this is no worse, and avoids the server-crashing cluster fuck of the first day of ticket sales.

The tier system was broke.
The tier system is still broke, with a twist.

I think they really dropped the ball by not streamlining the whole ticket buying experience by creating a single "this is what it costs" ticket. Most will agree that there must be some element of chance if demand is going to exceed supply, and a lottery can be a workable system
-but-
this "register for the most pain you're willing to endure" hook is just a bunch of hooey.

[Rice]

We are all free to complain about the new system. Unfortunately none of us have actually used this system. Who knows, it might be the greatest thing ever... (or it might suck donkey balls).

Guess all I can do is get my shit together, plan to attend. Buy my flights once I know I have tickets. and go from there. If I do not get tickets, well, crap - now what? Yes, I already attend all of the regionals I can within a 7 hour driving radius from here. Hmmm, maybe this will encourage inter-regional cooperation and the coolness that results from that??? Could that be what the official BM Org plan?

Rice

[theCryptofishist]

*kisses Rice*

[Canoe]

After reading the procedures finally posted on JRS, I still don't understand what they are trying to do. Why have different tiers of tickets if people signing up for the top tiers will still be in the lottery for all tiers? Am I reading this wrong or am I just too dense to understand what is happening?

They feel the need to take the one-day load off, both for what happened last year and with the sell-out they anticipate it being worse this year. So they head THAT problem off at the pass with "the lottery". This introduces a few anomalies, like the one you've identified. Only, how many people would opt to only go for top tiers when they need all the chances they can get to try to ensure they get ANY ticket so they can go. I spelled out one way to handle the option, but with all they have to work out to maximize that they can actually process the lottery entries, it's not likely to get added this year.
Rather than fix the capacity of the existing system, they're rolling the dice on this lottery. (Can't say I understand fully why they think this is truly a better idea.) We'll all go for the ride and get to see what happens. Well, those of us with computer access and a credit-card, prepaid or regular, get to go for the ride. Or you can take wait and take your chances getting a ticket during the First-come-first-served that follows the lotteries, along with everyone that didn't win a ticket in the lotteries.
Another thing that falls through the cracks: a family of three or more will need multiple credit cards to have enough entries just to try to get enough tickets for the whole family to attend. At least with the 2011 sellout they should have ample buyers to sell what tickets they do get if they don't get enough for the whole family to go.
Then again, maybe enough people won't trust the lottery enough to enter such that everyone in the lotteries gets a win and the outstanding tickets will sell later at the FCFS.
Who knows?
They get a first try at it with the pre-sales at the highest tier, so they get to work out bugs in their system with live data, and can fix or adjust as that run suggests. There may be an unforeseen disaster, which would allow them to adjust things for the main lottery.
Who knows. Welcome to the 2012 BM Exclusion Lottery.

[TheWalrus]

Well as long as the event organizers are comfortable with their little experiment, I am too: given the fact that THEY should also be subject to lottery!!!

[unjonharley]

Well as long as the event organizers are comfortable with their little experiment, I am too: given the fact that THEY should also be subject to lottery!!!

And still another troll.. Thewalrus WTF's next..

Eric is that you?

[theduchess]

So, I read the email about the random ticket awarding of the new system:
as I've said before, it doesn't stop scalpers
AND it doesn't help people who can only afford the $240 tier.
Admittedly, It was frustrating when my microsoft friends posted on Facebook that they'd only paid $240,
but now my card could be charged $390 and I don't have any choice in the matter!!
I CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT KNOW if I'm paying $240 or $390 !!!
I'm resisting the urge to swear here.

You're first idea was better: make different tiers for different price brackets, which allows people with more $$ to bet higher (because they know the lower tiers will be popular).
There are NO BENEFITS to this system when it comes to scalpers or awarding ticket tiers fairly.

On top of that I'm working on having campmates from all over the world in my camp,
and I might not get a ticket!
When are you going to get off this kick?

[theduchess]

This would help:

* Would like to see an additional check-box option where - if you win a tier lower than your max-tier selection, the system automatically trades your lower tier ticket(s) for ticket(s) from your max-teir:
- you get/pay-for your max-tier selection
- your max tier's quota is reduced
- your lower tier ticket(s) get returned to that tier's quota for someone else to get.
This is an option easy to capture, should be easy to implement, allows one to maximize their chance of getting to go while leaving less expensive tickets for others.

[pink]

@duchess:That would make sense. I wonder how many people do opt to pay more even if a lower price ticket is available? I know of people that just sat out the first day 'festivities' and bought a day or two out. That option you describe would provide interesting statistics.

Oh, and hi duchess!

[TheWalrus]

Troll?.....No

I wanted to avoid elaborating, or making bold comparisons, but here goes:

Hunting game is a privaledge in Nevada. It requires training, money and planning. In addition, game animals in the United States belong to the entire nation. So if you want the privaledge of harvesting an animal in Nevada, you simply follow the rules and apply - IN A LOTTERY. This system has worked for decades, and no one seems particularly concerned with usurping it. Furthermore, what's significant is that even if you are the Director of the State Division of Wildlife, you have NO SPECIAL GUARANTEE OF WINNING THE LOTTERY. Not even volunteers such as myself who dedicate time and effort to help the game populations thrive get a guarantee or special opportunity to win said lottery. Not even by paying extra money for "tier" benefits! That would be universally unfair and ILLEGAL.

So, sould the BMORG be allowed to make decisions and allocate the use of PUBLIC LAND while simultaineously awarding themselves special access? My point is, if it's a lottery, fine. But everyone must be subject to it, even the organizers and VIP's. If not, I smell lawsuit...

[Eric]

Well as long as the event organizers are comfortable with their little experiment, I am too: given the fact that THEY should also be subject to lottery!!!

And still another troll.. Thewalrus WTF's next..

Eric is that you?

Huh? I've never had a sock & I've certainly never trolled. You've completely lost me on this one, Unjon.

So, sould the BMORG be allowed to make decisions and allocate the use of PUBLIC LAND while simultaineously awarding themselves special access? My point is, if it's a lottery, fine. But everyone must be subject to it, even the organizers and VIP's. If not, I smell lawsuit...

You can bet the Org's legal team was heavily involved in making sure this system was kosher, regardless of what you think about it or how it should be run. If you want to try a lawsuit I hope you have a legal team as familiar with the issues surrounding the event & the permit as they do. I would start by reading the entire permit (once it comes out) very carefully.

[TheWalrus]

Clearly, Eric, the BMORG did not think this one through.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

TheWalrus ...So, sould the BMORG be allowed to make decisions and allocate the use of PUBLIC LAND while simultaineously awarding themselves special access? My point is, if it's a lottery, fine. But everyone must be subject to it, even the organizers and VIP's. If not, I smell lawsuit...

oh shit, John Law has a new sock.....